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Citizenship test in international transit zone due to COVID measures

smash1984

Champion Member
Oct 7, 2018
2,084
850
I am now doubting my own writing ability. Let me make it as clear as possible.

It is possible (note this word) to be a Canadian citizen, live abroad and not pay Canadian taxes.

It does not mean that it is automatic. It does not mean that it is easy. You have to do some things. Like sell assets, not have close ties (CRA has all the requirements).

My one and only point is that it is possible to be a Canadian citizen (not PR), reside abroad and not pay Canadian taxes.

There are other countries like USA, where it is impossible to do this without renouncing American citizenship.

Why am I talking about this? Read on.


The excuse used by xenophobes to justify their 'citizenship of convenience' charge is that some immigrants allegedly gain Canadian PR, live in Canada for bare minimum days, get Canadian passport and fly off to other countries to make more money. They then also proceed to give up Canadian tax residency and hence pay no further taxes to Canada. Then these Canadians come back to Canada in old age to use free healthcare.

My points are:

1. Canadian born citizens do this too. They are even worse. Because they use up free healthcare and heavily subsidized education till age 21, fly off to US to work, then come back either when they are old or they start a family (and then their kids suck up govt subsidies).

2. Having tax laws like US where it is impossible to not pay taxes even when abroad will solve this problem not only wrt immigrants, but also wrt Canadian born citizens who are also abusing the system.

3. But Conservatives never talk about such a law. Why? Because it will affect them. They love going to US and paying low taxes. And they hate immigrants. So they would rather revoke citizenships of people who go and live outside Canada and make citizenship itself 2 tier and worthless for all immigrants.
I actually agree with some of what you say, in fact some of the points you raise I had never thought about and make sense to me. But playing devil's advocate.....

For Canadian borns and living here, their families have been paying into the system that has been built over time, so they take from a system where their parents/grandparents paid into. The new Canadian and family is just potentially leeching off the system without him or any of his family having played any role into developing the system or contributing to it in any way (speaking of those who declare themselves non-resident for tax of course).

Thoughts?
 

fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
376
253
I actually agree with some of what you say, in fact some of the points you raise I had never thought about and make sense to me. But playing devil's advocate.....

For Canadian borns and living here, their families have been paying into the system that has been built over time, so they take from a system where their parents/grandparents paid into. The new Canadian and family is just potentially leeching off the system without him or any of his family having played any role into developing the system or contributing to it in any way (speaking of those who declare themselves non-resident for tax of course).

Thoughts?
Yes their parents, grandparents paid, but they are now using tax dollars for their old age healthcare. In fact, they are using it so much that Canada needs 300,000+ immigrants to come in and pay for it. Clearly, their contributions were not enough. If they were, Canada would not need any immigration.

And if you want to take it that far back, remember who subsidized Britain's settler colonies. It was probably your grandfather/great grandfather.
 
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smash1984

Champion Member
Oct 7, 2018
2,084
850
Yes their parents, grandparents paid, but they are now using tax dollars for their old age healthcare. In fact, they are using it so much that Canada needs 300,000+ immigrants to come in and pay for it. Clearly, their contributions were not enough. If they were, Canada would not need any immigration.

And if you want to take it that far back, remember who subsidized Britain's settler colonies. It was probably your grandfather/great grandfather.
Thanks, interesting points. I must confess, I hadn't really thought of some of the points you raise.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,432
3,176
2. Having tax laws like US where it is impossible to not pay taxes even when abroad will solve this problem not only wrt immigrants, but also wrt Canadian born citizens who are also abusing the system.
You appear to conflate having to file a tax return with having to pay tax. Millions, literally millions of American expats, live outside the U.S. and pay NO taxes to the U.S. Legally. Just living outside the U.S., even without being a bona fide resident in another country (subject to the precise criteria, like not being in the U.S. for more than a certain number of days in the tax year), entitles the expat to deductions which basically mean NO taxes owed to the U.S. unless the individual's income exceeds a 100 thousand U.S. dollars (precise expat deduction is around 90 thousand, last I looked, and everyone gets the basic deductions on top of that); for American expats who are bona fide residents in many countries, like Canada, pursuant to the applicable tax treaties there often are additional credits, so that even with an income well over a 100 thousand many American citizens still owe NO tax to the U.S.

Like Americans living outside the U.S. in regards to not actually owing any taxes to the U.S., for many Canadians (both citizens and PRs) living outside Canada, most will owe NO tax to Canada. The DIFFERENCE is that for many Canadians living outside Canada, they do not even need to file a Canadian tax return if they have no Canadian source income. In contrast, the majority of Americans living outside the U.S. are required to file a U.S. tax return even though they have no U.S. source income and otherwise do not owe any tax to the U.S.

That is, the big difference between the U.S. and Canada, in regards to tax matters for respective expats, is who must file a return.

Otherwise, while taxation and citizenship have overlapping and related elements, albeit not so much as taxation and residency (regardless of nationality), they are very much separate matters. There is a lot, lot more to being a citizen-in-fact than paying taxes.


The excuse used by xenophobes to justify their 'citizenship of convenience' charge is that some immigrants allegedly gain Canadian PR, live in Canada for bare minimum days, get Canadian passport and fly off to other countries to make more money. They then also proceed to give up Canadian tax residency and hence pay no further taxes to Canada. Then these Canadians come back to Canada in old age to use free healthcare.
This unfairly insinuates that Canadians opposed to allowing the Canadian immigration system be exploited by individuals seeking Canadian citizenship with no intent or effort to become Canadian citizens-in-fact are "xenophobes."

Without reference to actual polling, my sense is that it is safe to say that a large percentage of Canadians, and I am guessing a majority by a significant margin, generally oppose a path to citizenship which makes it easy for people to spend a minimal amount of time in Canada and gain Canadian citizenship, with a plan to live abroad indefinitely. In particular, in contrast, my sense is that by a big margin those Canadians nonetheless embrace or at least favour Canadian policy facilitating a path for Foreign Nationals to immigrate to Canada and become Canadian citizens. The latter are in NO way xenophobes even though they favour government policies and practices discouraging the exploitation of Canadian immigration by individuals whose plan is focused on getting a Canadian passport and living outside Canada indefinitely.

That is, it is one thing to recognize there is a rather strong sentiment prevalent among many, probably most Canadians, underlying suspicions about, and some outright opposition to those perceived to be applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport, and in particular those who are seeking-a-passport-of-convenience, which is about opposing the exploitation of Canada and NOT about any fear or hatred of strangers or foreigners (that is, NOT xenophobia). Of course it should be recognized that not everyone perceived to be someone seeking-a-passport-of-convenience is actually seeking-a-passport-of-convenience, while also acknowledging this is an accurate description of many who are. And, it should also be recognized that there are many reasons for why an applicant for citizenship might move abroad while the application is pending that does not mean that individual is seeking-a-passport-of-convenience.

THE UNFORTUNATE THING . . . is that short of a draconian provision like the former 5(1)(c.1) in the Citizenship Act, which until June 2017 allowed the government to summarily deny the application of any applicant determined to be residing abroad (repealed for good reason), there is no way to clearly distinguish one from the other. Thus, the unfortunate fallout and the uncertain extent to which those who are in fact seeking-a-passport-of-convenience are making it more difficult for those who pursue Canadian citizenship to become citizens-in-fact but who, for various reasons, need to go abroad to live for some time between making the application and taking the oath. Same old, same old, a few bad apples spoiling the lot. This, in turn, is exacerbated by the tendency in this forum to downplay or overlook the extent to which living abroad while the application is pending can make a negative impression significantly increasing the RISKS of non-routine processing and lengthy delays for such applicants.

ABOVE ALL: Even for those who aggressively assert it should be OK to be someone getting Canadian citizenship largely as a matter of obtaining-a-passport-of-convenience, since the law does not prohibit this outright, it is a disservice to downplay the extent to which living abroad while the application is pending increases the RISKS of encountering problems during the process. The RISKS are real, and should be considered before making a decision to relocate abroad before taking the oath. Participants in this forum should at least be honest about those risks.
 
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fr72

Hero Member
Jan 6, 2017
376
253
You appear to conflate having to file a tax return with having to pay tax. Millions, literally millions of American expats, live outside the U.S. and pay NO taxes to the U.S. Legally. Just living outside the U.S., even without being a bona fide resident in another country (subject to the precise criteria, like not being in the U.S. for more than a certain number of days in the tax year), entitles the expat to deductions which basically mean NO taxes owed to the U.S. unless the individual's income exceeds a 100 thousand U.S. dollars (precise expat deduction is around 90 thousand, last I looked, and everyone gets the basic deductions on top of that); for American expats who are bona fide residents in many countries, like Canada, pursuant to the applicable tax treaties there often are additional credits, so that even with an income well over a 100 thousand many American citizens still owe NO tax to the U.S.

Like Americans living outside the U.S. in regards to not actually owing any taxes to the U.S., for many Canadians (both citizens and PRs) living outside Canada, most will owe NO tax to Canada. The DIFFERENCE is that for many Canadians living outside Canada, they do not even need to file a Canadian tax return if they have no Canadian source income. In contrast, the majority of Americans living outside the U.S. are required to file a U.S. tax return even though they have no U.S. source income and otherwise do not owe any tax to the U.S.

That is, the big difference between the U.S. and Canada, in regards to tax matters for respective expats, is who must file a return.

Otherwise, while taxation and citizenship have overlapping and related elements, albeit not so much as taxation and residency (regardless of nationality), they are very much separate matters. There is a lot, lot more to being a citizen-in-fact than paying taxes.




This unfairly insinuates that Canadians opposed to allowing the Canadian immigration system be exploited by individuals seeking Canadian citizenship with no intent or effort to become Canadian citizens-in-fact are "xenophobes."

Without reference to actual polling, my sense is that it is safe to say that a large percentage of Canadians, and I am guessing a majority by a significant margin, generally oppose a path to citizenship which makes it easy for people to spend a minimal amount of time in Canada and gain Canadian citizenship, with a plan to live abroad indefinitely. In particular, in contrast, my sense is that by a big margin those Canadians nonetheless embrace or at least favour Canadian policy facilitating a path for Foreign Nationals to immigrate to Canada and become Canadian citizens. The latter are in NO way xenophobes even though they favour government policies and practices discouraging the exploitation of Canadian immigration by individuals whose plan is focused on getting a Canadian passport and living outside Canada indefinitely.

That is, it is one thing to recognize there is a rather strong sentiment prevalent among many, probably most Canadians, underlying suspicions about, and some outright opposition to those perceived to be applying-on-the-way-to-the-airport, and in particular those who are seeking-a-passport-of-convenience, which is about opposing the exploitation of Canada and NOT about any fear or hatred of strangers or foreigners (that is, NOT xenophobia). Of course it should be recognized that not everyone perceived to be someone seeking-a-passport-of-convenience is actually seeking-a-passport-of-convenience, while also acknowledging this is an accurate description of many who are. And, it should also be recognized that there are many reasons for why an applicant for citizenship might move abroad while the application is pending that does not mean that individual is seeking-a-passport-of-convenience.

THE UNFORTUNATE THING . . . is that short of a draconian provision like the former 5(1)(c.1) in the Citizenship Act, which until June 2017 allowed the government to summarily deny the application of any applicant determined to be residing abroad (repealed for good reason), there is no way to clearly distinguish one from the other. Thus, the unfortunate fallout and the uncertain extent to which those who are in fact seeking-a-passport-of-convenience are making it more difficult for those who pursue Canadian citizenship to become citizens-in-fact but who, for various reasons, need to go abroad to live for some time between making the application and taking the oath. Same old, same old, a few bad apples spoiling the lot. This, in turn, is exacerbated by the tendency in this forum to downplay or overlook the extent to which living abroad while the application is pending can make a negative impression significantly increasing the RISKS of non-routine processing and lengthy delays for such applicants.

ABOVE ALL: Even for those who aggressively assert it should be OK to be someone getting Canadian citizenship largely as a matter of obtaining-a-passport-of-convenience, since the law does not prohibit this outright, it is a disservice to downplay the extent to which living abroad while the application is pending increases the RISKS of encountering problems during the process. The RISKS are real, and should be considered before making a decision to relocate abroad before taking the oath. Participants in this forum should at least be honest about those risks.
1. That the US has a cut off of 100,000 is irrelevant. Canada can choose to have no cutoff. Simple.
2. I am talking about the principle and morality, not about risk or the biases/prejudices of the IRCC. Feel free to write another 10000 words on a strawman argument though.
 
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