Citizenship test: Collective action required, or expect endless delays, years. Example of the effective lobbyng of people awaiting spousal sponsorship

[AshesNdust]

That's exactly the type of reaction I was expecting and there is clearely a division here which is not good for our common goal to resume the test. I sweared to not reply any comments but when you say "On the same line, Please explain what is the urgency for resumption of testing? What is one thing that a permanent resident looses by not becoming citizen because of which the citizenship testing should start immediately. Last time, i asked this question, someone in this forum started saying.. 'Conservatives will come in.. " well here are some facts hopefully will convice you on how being Canadian Citizen is important or maybe critical to certain here like me:

1. I had a job offer a month and half ago but requiring to get a Canadian Citizen Certificate; a job that I strongly believed would make my life in general way better. I lied to the HR saying I would receive my Citizenship in 3 weeks but never happened and I lost that opportunity.

2. Where I am originally from for most of the Western countries, you need a VISA, my brother is resident and live in one of those western countries and was getting married during the pandemic, my mom was present at the time and a family reunion was planned; I applied for the visa and got denied because of covid 19 and I do understand the context. The wedding was postponned until summer 2020 only religious part done and I missed it but just think about it if I had my canadian passport I would be able to travel for sure.

3. I don't know where you guys from but it's a pain in a.. to get Visa application where I am from. And once I was travelling returning to Canada and had to stop over in France (most of the Western do that) and they were differenciating people like "guys with Western passports this way and others that way" do you know how disminishing is that? they were screening me like I am the worst on Earth that really hurts my ego... if I had my Canadian passport I wouldnt be treated that way and that's why I LOVE CANADA.

4. And the most important you want to be part in full in a system where you pay taxes, live and enjoy to live everyday.

So @sachinsoman1988 it's okay you don't have any sense of urgency or whatever but it doesn't mean it necessarily apply to me or anyone else in here. Those points are my typical issues with the Citizenship test backlog and other might have they own and read the Thread theme:

I am having the feeling that some opinions here encourages passivity and we dont want that to happen the sponsorship folks proved us that our voices can be heard but it requires to take action not being passive or quiet.

Also I am not saying you are are limiting voices in fact nobody can and I I know it's a public place but put it this way if everybody in this group had your mindset (no sense of urgency since you are PR and you fine with it which I respect ) do you think we would have the same outcome? I don't think so.


@AshesNdust my personal issue, your personal issue and X personal issue are national issues why do you think we have MPs , deputies and Prime Minister? and it's not like we are begging or something it's our due, we tax payers and contribute to the economy.

First off, thank you for the very nice, well laid out response. Great bullet points on serious issues a lot of us are going through.

I’ll respond to the questions posed to me. Our personal issues are not national issues which is why we have local governmental offices representing us to the federal and provincial offices. If enough people have the same issue, which immigration and citizenship only constitute a very small percentage of people, and it can affect the whole country then it becomes a national issue. Until that point, our local officials need to lobby the provincial and federal offices and try to convince them into action.

Now we can bring our own pressure, as many people here have done, with emails, letters, phone calls, getting the press involved, and protesting. The last two, press need to be done carefully especially with the current atmosphere in the country.

Unfortunately, we are always going to have to deal with people who don’t want any immigrants coming in and now we have people who would normally support us more concerned with keeping Covid at bay. Having a very vocal group of immigrants demanding employees return to in person testing during a pandemic is not going to play well. It definitely is not going to be well received if said immigrants start accusing the government of xenophobia and the employees trying to cheat the system and of being lazy.
Large gatherings in general are not being regarded is a positive way right now. Where I'm at there was even a lot of backlash against the anti-racism protests by actual supporters of anti-racism.
Of course, people have the right, now with health guidelines, to peacefully protest. I hope everyone who does stays safe. Personally, I feel contacting your local rep will be much more effective than a physical protest at this moment.
As to your well broken down points, I feel you. I was in the process of lining up a job opportunity that I had to put on hold because I wouldn’t have been able to just drop everything to get back to take my test and oath. So, I’ll have to hope I get another opportunity.
If you get another possible job that requires citizenship, see if they would be willing to consider you if you show them your canceled test date and that you turned in your application. I had a co-work who was able to do that with when he was getting his PR. Once he proved he was in process of obtaining it, the company was willing to take him on and his continued employment was contingent on getting the PR. I don’t know your situation, but it doesn’t hurt to ask.
Also, be aware that some western countries will still require visas even with a Canadian passport if you have ever held a passport from some countries. I’m not sure how many are still requiring it, but it’s something to look into when you travel.
I am very sorry you had to miss the wedding and family reunion. It’s been a year since I was able to see anyone from my family and it’s definitely not a good feeling, especially having elder parents. My biggest fear is that one of them will pass away before I can see them again.
Let’s hope we’ll see some movement soon and stay safe!

 

[sachinsoman1988]

obviously, you have no idea how stressful it is of knowing the unknown...
Secondly...I will summarize the main benefits of becoming a citizen:
1. let's say you run into an car accident and killed someone (Heaven's forbid)...you will be imprisoned then deported back to your country...just like the driver responsible for deadly Humboldt Broncos bus crash (read the news today....he's trying to stay in Canada)
2. you cannot apply for some government jobs or join the army...many PRs would love to work for the government...specially that most of the people are out of jobs now!
3. You cannot travel...let's say you have an emergency back home...and you need to travel...most PRs cards have expired...you have to wait 6 months to renew it now...otherwise, you have to travel and then get a temp visa from the country you travel to, which could take time and is a hassle indeed.
4. You have to maintain your PR status....Once you are a Canadian citizen, you do not need to do anything to maintain your citizenship.
5. Whether you like it or not, people want to vote! They've been living for Canada for at least 3 years and they believe their votes can make a difference, whether it's municipal, provincial or federal elections..

1-> This is fear mongering. In either case, you are saying people are asking citizenship so that they can stay here because they want that sense of security that no matter what they do they dont want themselves to be deported and hence want fast tracking applications. This is not a good attitude.
2-> Good point. There is a process for urgent processing of citizenship applications. Lets go and fully support the protest to solve this issue and ask govt for alternate route for this small group.
3-> You can apply for PRTD and all the Canadian embassies are accepting applications for it. Canada has never stopped Canadian residents and citizens from returning to Canada. According to me, not able to go through a 'hassle' and making an application for PRTD is not a reason to fast track citizenship application and ask for government funding for the same.
4-> Not being able to vote. Valid point. Now, is this urgent compared to putting people working in IRCC in-charge of administering the test at risk of exposure to COVID ? What if someone looses their life there? Is your activity of voting more important than a life? Is that worth the risk?

I dont intend to silence any voice as this is a free country. Like everyone, I am entitled to my opinion and I have stated the same above.

 

[sachinsoman1988]

No one, especially canadian tax payers,
should dare to try criticize government employees for not working for almost 10 months ,

and they should not come back to work until a vaccine is confirmed to effective or safe to have. Might be 1 or 2 more years after the vaccine is made, however, the government employees that conduct citizenship tests certainly deserve more special treatment than all other government employees and people who are working now.

They should continue to receive full pay from the taxpayers until the above is provided.

Also no one needs to travel for work so what’s the hurry right?

for those with 3rd world country passports,
They just need to deal with being treated as potential liabilities or threats,

Business competitors with 1st world passports should continue to have the top advantage when it comes to doing worldwide business that requires travel.

What is the point/Issue you are talking about? Is it citizenship tests are not resuming or is it a group of employees are getting paid without reporting to work? Would you be contend if that group of employees not get paid and go to EI benefits when out of public health reasons their workplace is closed down and they dont have a remote work option? When this happens, they will be forced to return to work because they cant take care of their family properly and citizenship tests will resume. Is this what we are pushing for? I am not in the opinion of taking the side of unions and their ability to take employers as a hostage. If the union is demanding that they want a 1-2 years of buffer time after a reasonable amount of people are immune from COVID, I will be in the front line to protest against that with you. So far, we have not yet reached that stage of immunization and we are discussing why we need fast tracking citizenship applications in October-2020.

I myself applied for visa and travelled to Europe (Quarantined there) and returned to Canada with quarantine. I have an Indian passport which does not have any travel freedom. Can you please elaborate the type of issue you are trying to showcase?

People born in '1st world countries' have an advantage in terms of passport freedom. Its a fact. You can say they were more lucky than you and me and their country was lucky to have power to give these freedoms to its citizens. I myself look at people born this country and think they are so lucky that they faced limited hardships compared to developing nations. I cannot understand how this is connected to the urgency to fast track citizenship applications in the middle of a pandemic.

 

[piotrqc]

1-> This is fear mongering. In either case, you are saying people are asking citizenship so that they can stay here because they want that sense of security that no matter what they do they dont want themselves to be deported and hence want fast tracking applications. This is not a good attitude.
...
4-> Not being able to vote. Valid point. Now, is this urgent compared to putting people working in IRCC in-charge of administering the test at risk of exposure to COVID ? What if someone looses their life there? Is your activity of voting more important than a life? Is that worth the risk?

You play the fear and exaggeration card too.


Once again, I ask the question: Why the subject of code 699 is almost taboo, and federal employees are sacred by some here ... And we are treated as people who insult them as soon as we dare to discuss the abuse they make of code 699? ... Even the Treasury Board found these actions immoral and unwanted, and therefore made changes to the 699 code to prevent abuse, and squandering of public money.

Why aren't you so brave to criticize the Treasury Board, and say that it denigrates federal employees?

The essential question is in my opinion: How would federal employees be superior to other employees in the private sector and self-employed workers so that they receive preferential treatment?

The health authorities consider that it is ok to resume work while respecting certain safety and distancing standards (Masks, hydroalcoholic hand gel, employee rotation, teleworking, etc.)

I ask myself the question, that's all. I really ask myself this question: Is their life more important than private sector employees or self-employed workers? ... Or maybe they are more susceptible to the virus?

Some people here tell me to focus on the 699 code, but that's one of the keys to our problem, I believe. Citizenship tests are certainly blocked because of this.

As I explained in a previous message, the Treasury Board has made reasonable changes, and has not completely closed the door to code 699 when necessary (This will be dealt with on a case by case basis, I invite you to reread the Treasury Board press release dated October 22:

https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/covid-19/message-chro-covid-19-other-leave-with-pay-guidance.html

To support you in these efforts, we are clarifying the guidance around the use of ‘Other Leave With Pay (699)’. This updated guidance, which will be effective November 9, 2020, emphasizes that this leave should be granted on a case-by-case basis, and only after remote or alternate work, or flexible work hours have been considered, and generally only after other relevant paid leave has first been used by the employee.

Once all available options have been considered, and managers have consulted with their Labour Relations advisors, ‘Other Leave With Pay (699)’ could be available in situations where an employee:

• has work or technology limitations,
• cannot work remotely and has been diagnosed with COVID-19, is experiencing symptoms and/or is required to self-isolate,
• has caregiving responsibilities as a result of such things as school or daycare closures, or COVID-19 illness or isolation requirements, or
• cannot work remotely and is at high risk or has someone in their care who is at high risk of severe illness from COVID-19.

Here is the union's latest response to the changes made by the Treasury Board, dated October 29:

http://psacunion.ca/changes-699-leave-psac-take-further-legal-action

Changes to 699 leave: PSAC to take further legal action

PSAC is filing a second policy grievance against Treasury Board for its most recent discriminatory changes to 699 leave that will force federal workers to exhaust all other leave – including sick leave and vacation leave – before they can request “other leave with pay” for COVID-19-related reasons.
...
Without the availability of a vaccine, and with many parts of Canada experiencing a second wave of the pandemic, Treasury Board’s proposed changes are premature and do not reflect the current reality of this public health crisis and its mental health impacts on public service workers.

If all goes well, and the union does not succeed in hampering these changes necessary to preserve the integrity of public funds and avoid excessive and unjustified abuses of the money of the honest self-employed worker or employee of the public sector



If all goes well, and the union does not succeed in hindering these changes necessary to preserve the integrity of public funds and avoid excessive and unjustified abuses of the money of the honest self-employed worker or employee of the public sector, l he Treasury Board announcement is normally good news for us. All employees benefiting from code 699, except those with valid and reasonable reasons to invoke it (will be treated on a case-by-case basis), will have to return to work, one way or another (Or risk exhausting their usual leave) ... This is really excellent news for taxpayers, whether they are already citizens or candidates for citizenship for that matter.

Tax fairness and the integrity and good governance of public funds are also important things ... Oddly enough, some commentators here completely forget.

It remains for us to hope that the decision-makers who will deal with the legal complaints of the union are as reasonable as the administrators of the Treasury Board of Canada, I am very appeased and certain that this will indeed be the case.

 

[sachinsoman1988]

You play the fear and exaggeration card too.


Once again, I ask the question: Why the subject of code 699 is almost taboo, and federal employees are sacred by some here ... And we are treated as people who insult them as soon as we dare to discuss the abuse they make of code 699? ... Even the Treasury Board found these actions immoral and unwanted, and therefore made changes to the 699 code to prevent abuse, and squandering of public money.

Why aren't you so brave to criticize the Treasury Board, and say that it denigrates federal employees?

The essential question is in my opinion: How would federal employees be superior to other employees in the private sector and self-employed workers so that they receive preferential treatment?

The health authorities consider that it is ok to resume work while respecting certain safety and distancing standards (Masks, hydroalcoholic hand gel, employee rotation, teleworking, etc.)

I ask myself the question, that's all. I really ask myself this question: Is their life more important than private sector employees or self-employed workers? ... Or maybe they are more susceptible to the virus?

Some people here tell me to focus on the 699 code, but that's one of the keys to our problem, I believe. Citizenship tests are certainly blocked because of this.

As I explained in a previous message, the Treasury Board has made reasonable changes, and has not completely closed the door to code 699 when necessary (This will be dealt with on a case by case basis, I invite you to reread the Treasury Board press release dated October 22:

https://www.canada.ca/en/government/publicservice/covid-19/message-chro-covid-19-other-leave-with-pay-guidance.html




Here is the union's latest response to the changes made by the Treasury Board, dated October 29:

http://psacunion.ca/changes-699-leave-psac-take-further-legal-action





If all goes well, and the union does not succeed in hampering these changes necessary to preserve the integrity of public funds and avoid excessive and unjustified abuses of the money of the honest self-employed worker or employee of the public sector



If all goes well, and the union does not succeed in hindering these changes necessary to preserve the integrity of public funds and avoid excessive and unjustified abuses of the money of the honest self-employed worker or employee of the public sector, l he Treasury Board announcement is normally good news for us. All employees benefiting from code 699, except those with valid and reasonable reasons to invoke it (will be treated on a case-by-case basis), will have to return to work, one way or another (Or risk exhausting their usual leave) ... This is really excellent news for taxpayers, whether they are already citizens or candidates for citizenship for that matter.

Tax fairness and the integrity and good governance of public funds are also important things ... Oddly enough, some commentators here completely forget.

It remains for us to hope that the decision-makers who will deal with the legal complaints of the union are as reasonable as the administrators of the Treasury Board of Canada, I am very appeased and certain that this will indeed be the case.

Let's create another thread about code 99 and media coverage on it to prevent misuse of tax dollars. I thought this thread was regarding citizenship tests and not about workplace rules of government. Let's say code 99 is removed , you want them to put their life and the community on risk so that people waiting for citizenship tests will be happy and out of hassles ? Is this the precedent and standard we are setting ?

Now, I don't know how you are comparing healthcare workers who put their life at risk to save the needy and citizenship applicants who are waiting for a test ?? If healthcare workers stay home , millions more would die. If 50000 citizenship applications are delayed by 12 more months , 50000 won't vote and would not travel freely like Canadian citizens do..if you look at court ruling in Atlantic bubble vs civil rights, courts have said liberties are irrelevant and immaterial when it comes to the overall betterment of the community.. (sorry, trying to put the two reasons that people highlighted in the thread ).. there might be more which i missed.

 

[piotrqc]

Let's create another thread about code 99 and media coverage on it to prevent misuse of tax dollars. I thought this thread was regarding citizenship tests and not about workplace rules of government. Let's say code 99 is removed , you want them to put their life and the community on risk so that people waiting for citizenship tests will be happy and out of hassles ? Is this the precedent and standard we are setting ?

Now, I don't know how you are comparing healthcare workers who put their life at risk to save the needy and citizenship applicants who are waiting for a test ?? If healthcare workers stay home , millions more would die. If 50000 citizenship applications are delayed by 12 more months , 50000 won't vote and would not travel freely like Canadian citizens do..if you look at court ruling in Atlantic bubble vs civil rights, courts have said liberties are irrelevant and immaterial when it comes to the overall betterment of the community.. (sorry, trying to put the two reasons that people highlighted in the thread ).. there might be more which i missed.

You carefully avoid answering essential questions simply and directly, and you steer the discussion in the direction you want it, by implying terrible things about me ... as if I was in favor of taking danger. Who says I'm for endangering anyone?

You really have a Machiavellian style of turns of phrase, to lead the discussion wherever you want, and to manipulate people's perception ... It's terrible.

The question of the union's determination to defend the 699 code and the question of resuming citizenship are closely linked. That's my opinion (As long as they stick to code 699 = no return to work = no citizenship test, that easy).


Now, on your IGNOBLE and REGRETABLE accusation that I despise the lives and health and safety of these people, that is plainly false, and a serious and dishonest accusation.

You seem to want to avoid at all costs answering the following questions, directly, and without magic trick or acrobatic turns of phrase, and reversed accusations:


- Private sector employees and self-employed workers continue to work in accordance with federal and provincial health standards without problem. Why should public sector employees be totally excluded?

Why do you fiercely defend the establishment of a double standard, or a priority advantage for a specific category of employees?

Especially since as contributors to public finances by your taxes, you should be rather shocked by that ...

Especially since, for Quebec in any case that I know and where I live, all the provincial government services have resumed. The offices are open and welcome the public, with the implementation of sanitary measures: Hydro-alkolic gel at the entrance, distancing, limited number inside, and windows in front of the employees. I experienced this for my driver's license, and also by accompanying a friend to the regional employment office, for an appointment with an agent to discuss professional training ... I am sure that the members here can add examples, also for Ontario or other priovinces.

- You have carefully avoided, like the other commentators on your board, broaching this question, @sachinsoman1988 , I would like to draw your attention, one last time (I would not do it again, if you still ignore, that would necessarily mean that you don't want to answer clearly and directly for some reason):

The Treasury Board of Canada, as I have shown in my previous messages seems to agree with the reasoning that there have been abuses in the use of the 699 code (and by extension abuse of public money ). The fact that he introduced changes that will be applied from November 9 clearly shows that they are acting in the direction I said (and we must salute them!) ... What do you think of this position of the Secretariat of the Treasury Board of Canada?


Would you also dare to accuse them of having contempt for people's lives and health? ... It's easy to insult someone behind a pseudo, but will you have the courage to make such a serious accusation towards a respected institution like the Treasury Board of Canada?

I am really curious to know your opinion on the decision of the Treasury Board of Canada to change the terms of code 699 to avoid abuse?

Thank you.

, Piotr.

 

[sarafandee]

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/news/2020/10/30/canada-aims-to-bring-in-over-1-2-immigrants-over-next-3-years

This upsets me. They are claiming they want to bring 1.2 million immigrants in the next three years. How do they plan to do that when they don't even have a plan to bring back testing? The backlog is forever growing bigger and bigger now.

 

[ott-613]

The scary part would be shifting in priority. We hope the testing and citizenship responsible people remains working in the current citizenship backlog. Not to assign them on PR new applications, PR applications are online, and theoretical speaking they can still work from home if covid stay for a while.

 

[tosinosho1992]

You carefully avoid answering essential questions simply and directly, and you steer the discussion in the direction you want it, by implying terrible things about me ... as if I was in favor of taking danger. Who says I'm for endangering anyone?

You really have a Machiavellian style of turns of phrase, to lead the discussion wherever you want, and to manipulate people's perception ... It's terrible.

The question of the union's determination to defend the 699 code and the question of resuming citizenship are closely linked. That's my opinion (As long as they stick to code 699 = no return to work = no citizenship test, that easy).
Hey, I acknowledge your


Now, on your IGNOBLE and REGRETABLE accusation that I despise the lives and health and safety of these people, that is plainly false, and a serious and dishonest accusation.

You seem to want to avoid at all costs answering the following questions, directly, and without magic trick or acrobatic turns of phrase, and reversed accusations:


- Private sector employees and self-employed workers continue to work in accordance with federal and provincial health standards without problem. Why should public sector employees be totally excluded?

Why do you fiercely defend the establishment of a double standard, or a priority advantage for a specific category of employees?

Especially since as contributors to public finances by your taxes, you should be rather shocked by that ...

Especially since, for Quebec in any case that I know and where I live, all the provincial government services have resumed. The offices are open and welcome the public, with the implementation of sanitary measures: Hydro-alkolic gel at the entrance, distancing, limited number inside, and windows in front of the employees. I experienced this for my driver's license, and also by accompanying a friend to the regional employment office, for an appointment with an agent to discuss professional training ... I am sure that the members here can add examples, also for Ontario or other priovinces.

- You have carefully avoided, like the other commentators on your board, broaching this question, @sachinsoman1988 , I would like to draw your attention, one last time (I would not do it again, if you still ignore, that would necessarily mean that you don't want to answer clearly and directly for some reason):

The Treasury Board of Canada, as I have shown in my previous messages seems to agree with the reasoning that there have been abuses in the use of the 699 code (and by extension abuse of public money ). The fact that he introduced changes that will be applied from November 9 clearly shows that they are acting in the direction I said (and we must salute them!) ... What do you think of this position of the Secretariat of the Treasury Board of Canada?


Would you also dare to accuse them of having contempt for people's lives and health? ... It's easy to insult someone behind a pseudo, but will you have the courage to make such a serious accusation towards a respected institution like the Treasury Board of Canada?

I am really curious to know your opinion on the decision of the Treasury Board of Canada to change the terms of code 699 to avoid abuse?

Thank you.

, Piotr.

Hey,

You carefully avoid answering essential questions simply and directly, and you steer the discussion in the direction you want it, by implying terrible things about me ... as if I was in favor of taking danger. Who says I'm for endangering anyone?

You really have a Machiavellian style of turns of phrase, to lead the discussion wherever you want, and to manipulate people's perception ... It's terrible.

The question of the union's determination to defend the 699 code and the question of resuming citizenship are closely linked. That's my opinion (As long as they stick to code 699 = no return to work = no citizenship test, that easy).


Now, on your IGNOBLE and REGRETABLE accusation that I despise the lives and health and safety of these people, that is plainly false, and a serious and dishonest accusation.

You seem to want to avoid at all costs answering the following questions, directly, and without magic trick or acrobatic turns of phrase, and reversed accusations:


- Private sector employees and self-employed workers continue to work in accordance with federal and provincial health standards without problem. Why should public sector employees be totally excluded?

Why do you fiercely defend the establishment of a double standard, or a priority advantage for a specific category of employees?

Especially since as contributors to public finances by your taxes, you should be rather shocked by that ...

Especially since, for Quebec in any case that I know and where I live, all the provincial government services have resumed. The offices are open and welcome the public, with the implementation of sanitary measures: Hydro-alkolic gel at the entrance, distancing, limited number inside, and windows in front of the employees. I experienced this for my driver's license, and also by accompanying a friend to the regional employment office, for an appointment with an agent to discuss professional training ... I am sure that the members here can add examples, also for Ontario or other priovinces.

- You have carefully avoided, like the other commentators on your board, broaching this question, @sachinsoman1988 , I would like to draw your attention, one last time (I would not do it again, if you still ignore, that would necessarily mean that you don't want to answer clearly and directly for some reason):

The Treasury Board of Canada, as I have shown in my previous messages seems to agree with the reasoning that there have been abuses in the use of the 699 code (and by extension abuse of public money ). The fact that he introduced changes that will be applied from November 9 clearly shows that they are acting in the direction I said (and we must salute them!) ... What do you think of this position of the Secretariat of the Treasury Board of Canada?


Would you also dare to accuse them of having contempt for people's lives and health? ... It's easy to insult someone behind a pseudo, but will you have the courage to make such a serious accusation towards a respected institution like the Treasury Board of Canada?

I am really curious to know your opinion on the decision of the Treasury Board of Canada to change the terms of code 699 to avoid abuse?

Thank you.

, Piotr.

Hey, I acknowledge your plight and hope things get sorted soon. You seem really knowledgeable about the terms of code 699 and legally savvy, so please help me understand how the government employees are abusing it if there is a legal provision for them to activate the code. Your insinuation of "abuse" would mean they are going against what the law permits them to do; in which case should have repercussions.

Also, if the government of Canada decides to cancel all citizenship applications and refund all payments, is there a law that says you have the right to citizenship or that forbids them from doing that?

I ask these questions not to throw a monkey wrench into the struggle (which I'm part of) but to genuinely understand the situation and be informed.

Please, let's keep the reply(ies) civil.

 

[Mr_Chang]

Hey,

Hey, I acknowledge your plight and hope things get sorted soon. You seem really knowledgeable about the terms of code 699 and legally savvy, so please help me understand how the government employees are abusing it if there is a legal provision for them to activate the code. Your insinuation of "abuse" would mean they are going against what the law permits them to do; in which case should have repercussions.

Also, if the government of Canada decides to cancel all citizenship applications and refund all payments, is there a law that says you have the right to citizenship or that forbids them from doing that?

I ask these questions not to throw a monkey wrench into the struggle (which I'm part of) but to genuinely understand the situation and be informed.

Please, let's keep the reply(ies) civil.

Interesting, I hope they don't do that.

I do find the tone of most of this thread a little harsh. It's clear to see that people are frustrated and have reasons to be frustrated. That said, the citizenship application process can "take as long as required" so there's no obligation for IRCC to go out of their way. I do belong the the section of society who feels the safety and well being of IRCC employees and their families is more important than someone's citizenship application. I can understand how me sitting on my high horse may frustrate people considering I am not being directly impacted by these delays. I'm sorry if I offend someone but the problems most of you have shared about your personal situations are just that - Personal Problems. That said, while there's no obligation for IRCC to go out of their way to continue processing your application through the pandemic they are actually doing so for those:

• needing Canadian citizenship to:
  • apply for a job
  • avoid losing your job
  • go to a Canadian school, college or university
• needing to travel because of death or serious illness in your family and you can’t get a passport in your current nationality
• receiving a successful Federal Court decision on an appeal on a previous application for citizenship

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/apply/urgently.html

I did see atleast one person saying their job was contingent to them having citizenship so there you go. I hope it helps you.

I genuinely understand the frustrations one might feel waiting for things out of your own control, but I hope that most people who don't have an urgent need for citizenship but "just want to finally get done with it" Can appreciate that even if a single life of some IRCC employee's Grandma is lost because they were forced to resume processing/citizenship tests during a pandemic, is it really worth it? Is your passport really more important than an actual human life?

Just wait, and be kind, and if you can't be kind atleast like tosinosho1992 says: Be civil.

 

[sachinsoman1988]

You carefully avoid answering essential questions simply and directly, and you steer the discussion in the direction you want it, by implying terrible things about me ... as if I was in favor of taking danger. Who says I'm for endangering anyone?

You really have a Machiavellian style of turns of phrase, to lead the discussion wherever you want, and to manipulate people's perception ... It's terrible.

The question of the union's determination to defend the 699 code and the question of resuming citizenship are closely linked. That's my opinion (As long as they stick to code 699 = no return to work = no citizenship test, that easy).


Now, on your IGNOBLE and REGRETABLE accusation that I despise the lives and health and safety of these people, that is plainly false, and a serious and dishonest accusation.

You seem to want to avoid at all costs answering the following questions, directly, and without magic trick or acrobatic turns of phrase, and reversed accusations:


- Private sector employees and self-employed workers continue to work in accordance with federal and provincial health standards without problem. Why should public sector employees be totally excluded?

Why do you fiercely defend the establishment of a double standard, or a priority advantage for a specific category of employees?

Especially since as contributors to public finances by your taxes, you should be rather shocked by that ...

Especially since, for Quebec in any case that I know and where I live, all the provincial government services have resumed. The offices are open and welcome the public, with the implementation of sanitary measures: Hydro-alkolic gel at the entrance, distancing, limited number inside, and windows in front of the employees. I experienced this for my driver's license, and also by accompanying a friend to the regional employment office, for an appointment with an agent to discuss professional training ... I am sure that the members here can add examples, also for Ontario or other priovinces.

- You have carefully avoided, like the other commentators on your board, broaching this question, @sachinsoman1988 , I would like to draw your attention, one last time (I would not do it again, if you still ignore, that would necessarily mean that you don't want to answer clearly and directly for some reason):

The Treasury Board of Canada, as I have shown in my previous messages seems to agree with the reasoning that there have been abuses in the use of the 699 code (and by extension abuse of public money ). The fact that he introduced changes that will be applied from November 9 clearly shows that they are acting in the direction I said (and we must salute them!) ... What do you think of this position of the Secretariat of the Treasury Board of Canada?


Would you also dare to accuse them of having contempt for people's lives and health? ... It's easy to insult someone behind a pseudo, but will you have the courage to make such a serious accusation towards a respected institution like the Treasury Board of Canada?

I am really curious to know your opinion on the decision of the Treasury Board of Canada to change the terms of code 699 to avoid abuse?

Thank you.

, Piotr.

I am not trying to turn the discussion onto any side. I have put my point clearly why I think there is no real priority/urgent need because of which immigrant community needs fast tracking citizenship test/process. I am trying to figure out the what is the other viewpoint behind this. ie - Why is there a need for fast tracking applications when COVID is spreading in the community. So far, I have heard one valid point: for employment in sectors which needs secret level security clearance, you need citizenship and those opportunities are denied for us. I completely agree with that and we should unite and support and push to help out that small group to navigate this. But majority of us are not in this boat.

I confess, I am ignorant about the 699 code that is being discussed in-detail in this forum. Question for my knowledge: Was 699 code created after COVID started so that employees can enjoy their vacation and get paid and not process applications in IRCC ? If not, why is it a topic here as 699 code seems to be a issue with employment practices in the government? Regardless, If it was created or being used to hijack the government to get 'free' money, I strongly condemn such attempts to waste public money.

Assuming at some point, one of us gets to meet IRCC officials, what would exactly be the key question from the PR/Immigrant community? Will it be - 'There is 699 code because of which IRCC is not resuming work with reasonable prevention methods?. We need to abolish this and stop wasting tax dollars'

I again repeat, I dont think we are steering the discussion on the topic as to why citizenship approval/tests should be a priority for the government when there is active COVID-19 spread in the community?

 

[deadbird]

I'm sorry if I offend someone but the problems most of you have shared about your personal situations are just that - Personal Problems

I think you've framed it well. These problems are personal and subjective. What's important to us is not important to you, and that's OK. We can agree to disagree. You're free to counter-protest. However, I suspect you won't because it's not as important to you to counter-protest as it is for us to protest the unacceptable delays.

 

[deadbird]

I am not trying to turn the discussion onto any side. I have put my point clearly why I think there is no real priority/urgent need because of which immigrant community needs fast tracking citizenship test/process. I am trying to figure out the what is the other viewpoint behind this. ie - Why is there a need for fast tracking applications when COVID is spreading in the community. So far, I have heard one valid point: for employment in sectors which needs secret level security clearance, you need citizenship and those opportunities are denied for us. I completely agree with that and we should unite and support and push to help out that small group to navigate this. But majority of us are not in this boat.

I confess, I am ignorant about the 699 code that is being discussed in-detail in this forum. Question for my knowledge: Was 699 code created after COVID started so that employees can enjoy their vacation and get paid and not process applications in IRCC ? If not, why is it a topic here as 699 code seems to be a issue with employment practices in the government? Regardless, If it was created or being used to hijack the government to get 'free' money, I strongly condemn such attempts to waste public money.

Assuming at some point, one of us gets to meet IRCC officials, what would exactly be the key question from the PR/Immigrant community? Will it be - 'There is 699 code because of which IRCC is not resuming work with reasonable prevention methods?. We need to abolish this and stop wasting tax dollars'

I again repeat, I dont think we are steering the discussion on the topic as to why citizenship approval/tests should be a priority for the government when there is active COVID-19 spread in the community?

Because schools and service canada centers are open.

 

[andy10]

I said that before, I will say it again. There is no Canadian law mentions government employees are more valuable than anyone else in this country! Government employees do not contribute to the economic production directly, they live on tax payers' money. So they need to serve people, which is providing the government service. Only when the whole country stop working, then government employee are allowed to stop working too.

Lets take a closer look here, even the police , firefighters , paramedics are still working in the pandemic, not to mention tens of thousands other essential workers....Citizenship test is one of the government services, organizing a safe and efficient citizenship test is the government employees' responsibility. Pandemic is not the valid excuse to refuse to provide that service. The pandemic has been more than seven months. We understand that ppl have fear about the virus in the beginning, cuz it is a new virus. But now, seven months later, we have learnt a lot about this covid! Hospitalization rate drops, survival rate spikes. So dear civil servants, please stop hiding in your basements, while your tax payers have never stopped working through out the pandemic!

Well said!

 

[andy10]

I am not trying to turn the discussion onto any side. I have put my point clearly why I think there is no real priority/urgent need because of which immigrant community needs fast tracking citizenship test/process. I am trying to figure out the what is the other viewpoint behind this. ie - Why is there a need for fast tracking applications when COVID is spreading in the community. So far, I have heard one valid point: for employment in sectors which needs secret level security clearance, you need citizenship and those opportunities are denied for us. I completely agree with that and we should unite and support and push to help out that small group to navigate this. But majority of us are not in this boat.

I confess, I am ignorant about the 699 code that is being discussed in-detail in this forum. Question for my knowledge: Was 699 code created after COVID started so that employees can enjoy their vacation and get paid and not process applications in IRCC ? If not, why is it a topic here as 699 code seems to be a issue with employment practices in the government? Regardless, If it was created or being used to hijack the government to get 'free' money, I strongly condemn such attempts to waste public money.

Assuming at some point, one of us gets to meet IRCC officials, what would exactly be the key question from the PR/Immigrant community? Will it be - 'There is 699 code because of which IRCC is not resuming work with reasonable prevention methods?. We need to abolish this and stop wasting tax dollars'

I again repeat, I dont think we are steering the discussion on the topic as to why citizenship approval/tests should be a priority for the government when there is active COVID-19 spread in the community?

Because they have to do their jobs and not find excuses not to return to work...they're just getting paid while doing nothing...we're not asking to fast-track citizenship tests...we're asking for an update...7 months without a single update about the resumption of tests is ridiculous....COVID is not an excuse...can you explain how it's safer to keep the IRCC employees in their basements? employees are back to working in their offices except IRCC...we learned how to live with COVID and life goes on...it appears you're one of the freeloaders who's living on government support and happy with it...IRCC jobs are considered low-risk jobs compared to others...for tests, they can decrease the number of test takers and practice social distancing....for interviews, they can install panels...they can mandate masks and sanitizing hands in their offices...they cannot wait for a year or two till everyone gets vaccinated..
if they are that vulnerable to COVID unlike all the other millions of people...they should have come up with alternatives by now...last week i took an IT certification exam from home...they ask you to move your camera and show them your room or office space and then someone will watch you while taking the exam...i am not necessarily saying they should do the same, but at least start working on something...if this is going to take a year, i am sue PRs are okay with it as long as there is clear communication from IRCC...And you know what..i completed all the requirements to become a Canadians citizen so why wait longer...voting may not be important to you but it's very important for others...feeling more secure is also important...you don't know what people have been through to get here...and yes indeed, it's a free country and you can say whatever you want, but i guess you're here to contradict people and force your opinion...learn how to live with COVID and try to support your local communities...it's not fair that almost all working class is actually doing some work whether it's remotely or in the office while IRCC employees are just relaxing at their homes while getting fully paid....