Refugee status cessation and PRs applying for citizenship
- Thread starter dpenabill
- Start date
The answers to your questions have been answered in previous posts in this thread. Take the time to go through it.
In all cases, if someone had no trouble going back to his country as a PR and back, and successfully claimed citizenship, it doesn't mean it will be the same for you.
If there's a possibility for you to avoid putting your situation at risk by not taking your country's passport, you may want to consider it.
In particular, see if previous PRs (in this thread or elsewhere) that were refugees could ask for an urgent citizenship processing for a reason similar to yours, so you can go there as a canadian in a few months.
According to this page, illness/death in the family while you can't have a passport is considered a good reason to apply for that :
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-citizenship/become-canadian-citizen/apply/urgently.html
Don't know if that also applies to refugees, or if even the fact to disclose that you're thinking about going back to your country would be an issue though...
Hello. Im kindy inquiring if anyone can answer me on this. I had my citizenship test and interview today. I passed my test with 19/20. My file was called our separately and i was taken to a separate room.During the interview, the officer checked my passports. However i had already declared my visits to my home country as a refugee on my application and the reasons- death in the family. Officer seemed understanding but because I renewed my home country passport she saud this shouldn't have been done. She asked me about my other trips and asked if I'm sure i didnt crossover to my home country. I said no, as it is.
She asked me all about my trips and how i spent my days. At the end she said she will write to me to request info involving photocopies of my passports and stamps. Also she said she will contact cbsa to obtain more info on my travels. She also talked about me contacting my home country authorities and getting all info on my entry and exit. I signed something to say that all the info i provided is true to the best of knowledge, though she concealed everything she had been writing and only gave me the portion to sign.
I'm confused as to what is going on. Is he making an application to cbsa for pr cessation? What happens to my citizenship application at this point?
She asked me all about my trips and how i spent my days. At the end she said she will write to me to request info involving photocopies of my passports and stamps. Also she said she will contact cbsa to obtain more info on my travels. She also talked about me contacting my home country authorities and getting all info on my entry and exit. I signed something to say that all the info i provided is true to the best of knowledge, though she concealed everything she had been writing and only gave me the portion to sign.
I'm confused as to what is going on. Is he making an application to cbsa for pr cessation? What happens to my citizenship application at this point?
There are reports in posts above from other forum participants who have not been subjected to cessation proceedings despite having obtained a home country passport AND visiting the home country. BUT THERE IS A PRESUMPTION OF REAVAILMENT JUST BY OBTAINING THE HOME COUNTRY PASSPORT. AND TRAVEL TO THE HOME COUNTRY IS CONSIDERED STRONG EVIDENCE OF REAVAILMENT INTENT.
It still appears to be RISKY to obtain the home country passport. It appears to still be MORE RISKY to obtain the home country passport and use it for international travel. And it appears to be even more RISKY to obtain the home country passport and travel to the home country.
BUT WE DO NOT KNOW HOW RISKY IT IS.
BUT WE ALSO DO NOT KNOW HOW RISKY IT IS FOR ANY PARTICULAR INDIVIDUAL REFUGEE TO RETURN TO HIS OR HER HOME COUNTRY.
The particular facts and circumstances will matter, of course. But what you do is very much a personal decision which only you can make for yourself. Balancing what you know about the various risks (risk of cessation of status, risk to personal safety in the home country, and so on) and your personal priorities.
I doubt anyone can assure you that it will for sure be OK to go. But it very well might be OK. How important it is to hold on to a life in Canada, to you personally, is a big factor. How important it is for you to go to your family soon, that is a big factor. I certainly do NOT envy the dilemma. Some MPs, like Kwan (discussed in posts above) have pushed for the government to revise the impact of the changes implemented by the Harper government. But as the statistics for last year indicate, the current government is indeed still initiating cessation actions . . . 141 new ones last year.
Thus, as I will also note for the other query above, perhaps the risk of being referred for cessation is low BUT THE POTENTIAL CONSEQUENCES, loss of all status to live in Canada with no available H&C relief, are so severe, this is a situation with a lot at stake.
It is very difficult, close to impossible, to second-guess or otherwise extrapolate what the PI Interviewer is focused on or concerned about. Some of what you report does suggest a possible revailment concern, which could possibly result in a referral to CBSA for a cessation investigation. Some of what you report suggests a concern about your presence calculation. Whether the interviewer had overt concerns of either sort or was mostly monitoring how you responded to discern if there is cause to examine your case more, is NOT at all easy to guess.
Other than possibly consulting with a lawyer sooner rather than later, hard to see what else you could do at this stage. Most of the information is in the pot, so to say. Not much you could do now to change how things will go . . . except to watch for any requests from IRCC and respond to them accordingly.
You may be issued RQ-related requests, such as a CIT 0520, which is often called RQ-lite, or you could get CIT 0171, the full-blown RQ, either of which can ask for certain documents including record of movement from other countries. Or, you could receive a separate specific request for this or that document, such as a record of movement from another country.
Given the potential cessation issue I am NOT sure how you should respond to a request for a record of movement from your home country . . . asking your home country for a record of movement, well that sounds more than a bit like being in a transactional relationship with the home country akin to reavailment.
If you can afford a lawyer, perhaps best to consult with one SOONER rather than waiting.
But, it may be that the interviewer was testing your reaction and there is no cessation issue lurking . . . the problem, of course, is that the consequences of cessation are brutal. Not only is the citizenship application put on hold, if CBSA decides to proceed with a cessation action that could lead to loss of all status in Canada, not just the denial of the citizenship application but loss of protected person status, the loss of which automatically terminates PR status . . . and last I saw, NO H&C relief is available for this. So even if the risk of cessation proceedings is low, the potential consequences means there is nonetheless a lot at stake.
Sorry typed in yiur space. This is what it should be:
Thanks for the response. Im really worried and frustrated and cannot afford a lawyer at this min. How far does cbsa go to track peoples movements? My case is highly unlikely to be about calculation of days. I applied a year late. I have enough buffer days. The officer focused entirely on why i went to my home country. Good thing i was calm and stuck to everything i said on my application. Still very worried. I wonder what the letter will say.
I askee her how i can obtain records of movt from my country and she responded sarcastically that since i renewed a passport, im definitely in touch with them so it shouldn't be a problem.
Thanks for the response. Im really worried and frustrated and cannot afford a lawyer at this min. How far does cbsa go to track peoples movements? My case is highly unlikely to be about calculation of days. I applied a year late. I have enough buffer days. The officer focused entirely on why i went to my home country. Good thing i was calm and stuck to everything i said on my application. Still very worried. I wonder what the letter will say.
I askee her how i can obtain records of movt from my country and she responded sarcastically that since i renewed a passport, im definitely in touch with them so it shouldn't be a problem.
I am NOT an expert. I have only gotten involved in this subject because, to a significant extent, no one else was stepping up to the plate and the consequences can indeed be very severe, so I was compelled to raise awareness of the issue . . . and because this is so important, such a dangerous pitfall, I have continued to follow the issue and offer what information and insight I can . . . but I actually am NOT all that familiar with refugee issues generally (I've had a life of relative privilege) and there is a lot of angles I know rather little about.
Sorry I cannot offer much to alleviate your anxiety. Yeah, I am afraid the interviewer's comment and attitude about obtaining a record of movement from your home country could be telling. As I observed in my previous post:
Given the potential cessation issue I am NOT sure how you should respond to a request for a record of movement from your home country . . . asking your home country for a record of movement, well that sounds more than a bit like being in a transactional relationship with the home country akin to reavailment.
This really is an issue for a lawyer. In some cities there are local organizations which provide services to refugees. I'd suggest researching for such organizations in your area and seeing if they can offer any help, assistance, advice, or referrals.
How much you are at risk depends on many factors, not the least of which is how often you have traveled using the home country passport, and especially how often you have traveled to the home country, how long you have stayed in the home country, WHY you have gone to and stayed there, and the nature of your activities in the home country (employment, for example, or business related activity, can increase the risk a lot).
In previous pages I and others cite and link some of the cessation cases. You may find some of that information helpful in evaluating the risks in your own situation.
If you have frequently traveled to the home country, and especially if you have stayed there for significant periods of time, you may want to really dig deep looking for ways to afford a lawyer.
Sorry I do not have better news. Unfortunately this is an issue which can result in someone who has been well-settled in Canada, PERMANENTLY settled in Canada, losing all status to live in Canada even though they have not done anything wrong.
As difficult as this may be, I hope you will report back here about how things actually go. As you might note per the recent query from @Kamite and @Sambu2019, and responses, there is a lot we do not know about current policy and practices. What you report can help us better inform others.
Note to @Sambu2019 -- the report from @Kambs16 suggests this refugee-applicant's travel history did not trigger a cessation referral right away, that apparently it was identified in preparation for the test/interview and then addressed in the interview. This could suggest withdrawing the application MIGHT help avoid screening for and identification of a reavailment issue. Something to consider DEPENDING on your personal situation, including the nature and extent of your home country interactions, especially relative to frequency, purpose, and duration of stays in the home country.
The conflicting incentives include recognizing that once Canadian citizenship is obtained, travel to the home country would have NO significance (except for the risk to personal safety that might involve . . . but just being a Canadian citizen can significantly decrease such risks). So to withdraw the citizenship application, delaying Canadian citizenship, will preclude travel to the home country for the foreseeable future.
If you withdraw, it will still be prudent to NOT travel again using a home country passport . . . and indeed, NOT use the home country passport again for any reason. NOT renew or otherwise obtain another passport. And wait to apply again for citizenship; wait until there has been BOTH no travel to the home country within the preceding five years, and any home country passport has been expired for at least the full five years. Or until there is a change in the law regarding cessation (noting, however, there has been NO movement at all in this regard; Kwan's private member's bill going nowhere for example).
Generally I discourage relying much on anecdotal reports, except to the extent the report seems reliable and suggests what MIGHT happen (individual reports should NEVER be relied upon as proof of what the rule is or what will for sure happen), and can otherwise help us put various aspects of how things work in perspective.
BUT the what-might-happen suggestion in the report by @Kambs16 at the least indicates a possible if not probable window of opportunity to avoid the screening which could result in a cessation investigation referral . . . which if you have had frequent or lengthy trips to the home country, is something you might seriously consider doing.
And, for any other PR-refugee who has obtained a home country passport: best to stop using it. Remember that PoE examinations are the most common events triggering a cessation investigation.
And of course the greater the risks to personal safety you face in the home country, the more important it is to exercise caution to protect your PR-refugee status in Canada. At least until you become a Canadian citizen. Protect yourselves!
Thanks for that detailed advice. I will wait fot their communication before I see a lawyer. Incase by some chance they do their checks and make theur decision and send me an oath letter(best case scenario)
Perhaps CBSA might not see it as a case deserving cessation. IRCC In my case would have to contact cbsa first before issuing any such order. However she didnt explain to me clearly what her next move would be. She just said "we need to sort this. My family came here as refugees too. I hate seeing someone in such a position but we have to sort this"
I kept calm because i was prepared for anything knowing ny situation. I just dont know how long this is going to take and if i have the right to appeal any negative decision.
However her issue was more to do with renewing my passport which i did through my embassy. I travelled three times to my home country all of which i declared. Twice for 5 weeks and once for 2 months. She said she can sympathise with me losing my brothers and having to go to bury but that i should have informed cic befor travel and im wondering how u anticipate someones death. Its all daunting. Im really worried but i will wait patiently for their communication. I will keep updating this thread because im sure you might learn a lot from my case.
If i withdraw my application doesnt that go on record and give me probs further down the road.
Perhaps CBSA might not see it as a case deserving cessation. IRCC In my case would have to contact cbsa first before issuing any such order. However she didnt explain to me clearly what her next move would be. She just said "we need to sort this. My family came here as refugees too. I hate seeing someone in such a position but we have to sort this"
I kept calm because i was prepared for anything knowing ny situation. I just dont know how long this is going to take and if i have the right to appeal any negative decision.
However her issue was more to do with renewing my passport which i did through my embassy. I travelled three times to my home country all of which i declared. Twice for 5 weeks and once for 2 months. She said she can sympathise with me losing my brothers and having to go to bury but that i should have informed cic befor travel and im wondering how u anticipate someones death. Its all daunting. Im really worried but i will wait patiently for their communication. I will keep updating this thread because im sure you might learn a lot from my case.
If i withdraw my application doesnt that go on record and give me probs further down the road.
It may be too late for withdrawing the application: the issue has been identified, and IRCC and CBSA are likely to proceed according to their policies and practices even if you withdraw . . . and withdrawing might even hurt. (BUT if so, it would hurt in the sense of how it affects the decision to proceed with cessation . . . while withdrawing raises some questions when the individual reapplies, that is NOTHING anywhere near so serious as potential cessation of status.)
BUT I really do NOT KNOW, not at all, how you should proceed.
AND you are correct about other possibilities . . . as I previously noted, it is possible the Interviewer was primarily interested in seeing how you would react and perhaps your responses will suffice. My guess, though, is that the interviewer will give the information to the responsible Citizenship Officer who will make a decision . . . which could be:
-- approve you for a grant of citizenship and queue your file to be scheduled for an oath ceremony, or
-- send you a request for additional documents, possibly including a request for a Record of Movement from your home country, or
-- schedule you for an interview with the Citizenship Officer (least likely, but possible), or
-- put processing the application on hold and make a referral to CBSA to determine if cessation proceedings are warranted (if this happens you may not get notice of it happening and so far it looks like this process can take a very long time, a long time before a decision is made to NOT proceed with cessation or a decision to proceed with cessation; and then if CBSA decides to proceed, and initiates a cessation action, it appears these cases are taking a very long time)
-- send you a request for additional documents, possibly including a request for a Record of Movement from your home country, or
-- schedule you for an interview with the Citizenship Officer (least likely, but possible), or
-- put processing the application on hold and make a referral to CBSA to determine if cessation proceedings are warranted (if this happens you may not get notice of it happening and so far it looks like this process can take a very long time, a long time before a decision is made to NOT proceed with cessation or a decision to proceed with cessation; and then if CBSA decides to proceed, and initiates a cessation action, it appears these cases are taking a very long time)
As for the particular details about reason for the trips, assuming IRCC perceives your explanation of the reason to be credible, that is probably a positive factor, indicating your intent could have been something other than reavailing yourself of the country's authority/protection. How much that weighs against the presumption of reavailment due to renewing the passport I do NOT know.
As for the number and length of the trips, all I know is that the more trips there have been and the longer they were, the greater the risk there will be a cessation investigation potentially leading to cessation proceedings . . . which would lead to a hearing at which you can try to rebut the presumption of reavailment and explain your reasons.
I know of NO way to quantify the risks more precisely than that. More trips, not good. Longer stays, not good. But how much so is a mystery.
As for comments in my previous post about withdrawing the application: note that my discussion about this in the previous post was addressed primarily to a different forum participant who queried about possibly withdrawing an application at a much earlier stage of the process, soon after applying and before the application has been transferred to the local office. I cannot guess if withdrawing now would hurt or help. This is something a lawyer might be able to answer.
Thank you in advance for your future reports about how it goes for you. Even what you have reported today helps illuminate the fact that yes, citizenship applicants (who are refugees) should stay aware of this issue.
FAMILY of REFUGEES OBSERVATION:
Sometimes family members are NOT the particular individual granted refugee or protected person status. I do not recall the nomenclature or labels, but in effect sometimes a refugee is allowed to bring family members to Canada as, in a sense, accompanying family members. These individuals might NOT be designated protected persons themselves, and thus not subject to cessation. I have no idea if or how this might apply to your situation. As I noted before I am NOT very familiar with refugee matters other than cessation. But for example the spouse of a refugee, or perhaps the children of a refugee, might not be a person subject to the Section 108(1) grounds for cessation. Could make a big difference.
Last edited:
Thanks again for the advice. Very helpful. I will sit back and wait and keep positive. You pointed out one important thing for me - i hadn't realized that the interviewer is different from the actual citizenship officer that makes a decision. Interesting because after interviewing me she put my file in a suitcase. She was half friendly, half harsh. Probably trained that way. Let us hope the citizenship officer will be kinder and more considerate ofcmy circumstances which so far seem to be my strongest point. She however went through the routine procedures for all applicants like signing the non criminal declaration form. Etc. Giving me my test results and congratulating me. Meaning probably if all checks are done they will proceed from where they stopped. Im sure they could have opened a cessation procedure right as soon as my file got to the local office but im sure they felt they had to hear my part of the story before making a decision. Can't figure out why she wants coloured photocopies of all my passport pages old and new. She had them right there to see all she wanted to see
Hi i m looking for some guidance
I got my pr as refugee in 2011 and i did renew my passport twice and traveled back home a couple of times and few trips to another country. I was unaware that merely renewing passport can cause cesseation and let alone the travel. I had renewed my pr dec 2017 without any problem eventhiugh i did provide all my back home travel information.
im now scared to apply for citizenship. I need to know about some expert lawyers that i can contact in this matter.
As well need to know from senior members that if my pr husband whom i sponsored can sponsor me in case of cesseation? Or my other options in case of cesseation as i have a established financial and married life with a baby here in canada.
Its stupid of me travel even for emergencies i guess but i didnt know that even after becoming u r not secure in our status.
Any advice and help will b appreciated as i dont want to give up my life here.
I got my pr as refugee in 2011 and i did renew my passport twice and traveled back home a couple of times and few trips to another country. I was unaware that merely renewing passport can cause cesseation and let alone the travel. I had renewed my pr dec 2017 without any problem eventhiugh i did provide all my back home travel information.
im now scared to apply for citizenship. I need to know about some expert lawyers that i can contact in this matter.
As well need to know from senior members that if my pr husband whom i sponsored can sponsor me in case of cesseation? Or my other options in case of cesseation as i have a established financial and married life with a baby here in canada.
Its stupid of me travel even for emergencies i guess but i didnt know that even after becoming u r not secure in our status.
Any advice and help will b appreciated as i dont want to give up my life here.
As noted, more than occasionally above, what we know and can share is stated in posts above. Even your query about finding a lawyer has been addressed above.
Your story is a common one. More than a few tripped up by this have reported CIC and IRCC help line agents giving erroneous information about this.
It is good that you were able to renew the PR card without a problem. We do not know much about how or when or to what extent IRCC or CBSA are screening for potential reavailment among PR-refugees. There have been a few signs that under the current Liberal government there has been a more relaxed, lenient approach to this BUT this cannot be verified.
Note that the cessation grounds are essentially taken directly from UNHCR guidelines, and IRCC and CBSA follow those guidelines, including the presumption of reavailment if the protected person obtains or renews the home country passport.
Unfortunately we cannot say what the risks are, beyond knowing there is a risk for any PR-refugee who has obtained and used a home country passport, and that risk is higher if the passport was used to travel to the home country.
So yes, at least a consultation (paid consultation) with a lawyer who has actual experience representing refugees, and familiarity with the cessation issue, is a good idea before proceeding to apply for citizenship.
SPONSORED FAMILY MEMBER:
There may be some discussion of this in previous pages of this topic. I do not know the answer to your question about this.
Unfortunately there is not a lot of reporting about how all this actually works. Or, maybe that is fortunate since it suggests that there are NOT very many persons affected, so few are reporting their experience.
Hi dpenabill,
Thank you very much for the advice. I am seriously considering to see a lawyer to get more guidance on this issue.
I notice you have shared some court notes in the previous treads. Since English is my first language, I was wondering if it would be possible that you could share some cases where the applicant received a positive decision in Toronto? Thanks in advance.
You better consider seeking legal counsel. Better safe than sorry. Talking from experience. I had the chance to do so before i applied for my citizenship. A counsel friend of mine offered to write me a cover letter explaining my home country travels. I brushed it off thinking it was not necessary because some other friends of mine had got lucky. I too had got lucky with CBSA at PoE thrice. But there i was before a citizenship officer at my citizenship test and my luck had run out. Now im seeking legal counsel. Rather you do it early than later. I'm now at their mercy literally.