+1(514) 937-9445 or Toll-free (Canada & US) +1 (888) 947-9445

Refugee status cessation and PRs applying for citizenship

btbt

Hero Member
Feb 26, 2018
541
210
So, this seems to have strayed quite a bit from information that is relevant for refugees who apply for citizenship or otherwise may encounter issues around status cessation and reavailment.

If you lot want to keep talking past each other, could you maybe do it in a separate thread, so people that try to keep an eye on threads in order to answer people's questions can do so without having to slog through all that stuff?
 

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,868
1,017
124
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
Its difficult for me to comprehend how are you relating Maslow's hierarchy of needs theory to the situation of a refugee? They are all fundamental needs. Can you please explain? Thanks.
That hierarchy speaks about how you approach fulfilling your needs and what has more priority against what.
It means than in a first place you would try to escape the danger before securing food (you will not start picking berries if an angry bear is around).

And then you will first go for food before going for shelter (you will eat if you are hungry before you start building your house or searching for a suitable cave).

And only after that is secured (you are safe, not hungry or thirsty anymore and you have a shelter against nasty weather) then you can go for your social needs (bday party for your kid, funeral for your parents, visiting old friends or saying kind words to your sick brother).

And you can argue that you can do certain things if you are hungry or certain level of danger is there. But again once it cross certain level and becomes unbearable you will prioritize.

And actually to live you just need first 3 points. And yes refuge is strictly speaking to secure point 1. And with a little help at the start for point 2 and 3. But then you have to secure everything above the first point.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CANADIANZ

Derut

Member
Aug 25, 2017
17
9
Now I am totally worried. I am usually very meticulous but I failed when I accepted bad advice and renewed my passport(even if I didn’t use it). It was too easy to renew passport- you just send 50dollar with you passport to the embassy and they will send you the renewed passport- you don’t even go to embassy. But as Vensak said, all these don’t matter. I renewed It just for the sake of having renewed passport - when CIC sent me my passport once I became PR, I thought we can travel with it except to our home country- infact no one told me to not renew the passport. I really don’t know what to do. I am so stupid that I let my kids down. I regret getting into this mess. My only hope is Almighty God. My application is in process now I will see what will happen.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CANADIANZ

velaven

Newbie
Apr 15, 2011
3
2
Now I am totally worried. I am usually very meticulous but I failed when I accepted bad advice and renewed my passport(even if I didn’t use it). It was too easy to renew passport- you just send 50dollar with you passport to the embassy and they will send you the renewed passport- you don’t even go to embassy. But as Vensak said, all these don’t matter. I renewed It just for the sake of having renewed passport - when CIC sent me my passport once I became PR, I thought we can travel with it except to our home country. I really don’t know what to do. I am so stupid that I let my kids down. I regret getting into this mess. My only hope is Almighty God. My application is in process now I will see what will happen.
im in the same boat!! lets hope nothing will happen..
 

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,868
1,017
124
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
I do understand that I do not bring the factual information about the current status and won and lost cases. However I am trying to explain the logic behind the current law. As it seems that legal implications of some actions might be escaping to some.

I do understand that many of the short visits do happen from the sheer lack of knowledge.

One more thing to add for those that went for the passport renewal to their embassy,
Just so you know building of your embassy is technically an extension of your own country. So would you be arrested directly inside the building it would be very very difficult for the other country to do something against it. Why? Because you are still citizen of that country with the set of right and obligations.

So keep that in mind.
 

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,868
1,017
124
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
im in the same boat!! lets hope nothing will happen..
What was done was done. Do not use that document anymore and get a lawyer if ever you will go for citizenship. As you might need it.

Passport is an international legal document and the main purpose is to show that the person is under protection of that country . That is why getting it and especially using it to travel is using the very protection you said that your country is not giving you.
 

sopranotb

Star Member
Jul 18, 2015
96
15
Now I am totally worried. I am usually very meticulous but I failed when I accepted bad advice and renewed my passport(even if I didn’t use it). It was too easy to renew passport- you just send 50dollar with you passport to the embassy and they will send you the renewed passport- you don’t even go to embassy. But as Vensak said, all these don’t matter. I renewed It just for the sake of having renewed passport - when CIC sent me my passport once I became PR, I thought we can travel with it except to our home country- infact no one told me to not renew the passport. I really don’t know what to do. I am so stupid that I let my kids down. I regret getting into this mess. My only hope is Almighty God. My application is in process now I will see what will happen.
Never mind my friend.. just renewing your home country passport does not mean they will cease your status.. 100% you will get your citizenship.. these cases has been sorted out already by federal court and they do not bring it again.. 100% believe me, go enjoy your time with your kids..
 
  • Like
Reactions: velaven

sopranotb

Star Member
Jul 18, 2015
96
15
I do understand that I do not bring the factual information about the current status and won and lost cases. However I am trying to explain the logic behind the current law. As it seems that legal implications of some actions might be escaping to some.

I do understand that many of the short visits do happen from the sheer lack of knowledge.

One more thing to add for those that went for the passport renewal to their embassy,
Just so you know building of your embassy is technically an extension of your own country. So would you be arrested directly inside the building it would be very very difficult for the other country to do something against it. Why? Because you are still citizen of that country with the set of right and obligations.

So keep that in mind.
Darling, people mail their renewal request and get their renewed passport by mail..
AND, it could be cases like mine that refugee does not have any problem with the government but rather with a specific group of people inside the home country that threaten refugee and government is weak enough to do nothing about this or protect refugee.. so even going to embassy or visiting the country for short periods do not mean they will arrest refugee at the embassy or at the home country it-self.. boom
 
  • Like
Reactions: velaven

sopranotb

Star Member
Jul 18, 2015
96
15
That hierarchy speaks about how you approach fulfilling your needs and what has more priority against what.
It means than in a first place you would try to escape the danger before securing food (you will not start picking berries if an angry bear is around).

And then you will first go for food before going for shelter (you will eat if you are hungry before you start building your house or searching for a suitable cave).

And only after that is secured (you are safe, not hungry or thirsty anymore and you have a shelter against nasty weather) then you can go for your social needs (bday party for your kid, funeral for your parents, visiting old friends or saying kind words to your sick brother).

And you can argue that you can do certain things if you are hungry or certain level of danger is there. But again once it cross certain level and becomes unbearable you will prioritize.

And actually to live you just need first 3 points. And yes refuge is strictly speaking to secure point 1. And with a little help at the start for point 2 and 3. But then you have to secure everything above the first point.
Maslow is just a theory.. countries follow UNHCR book that clearly states that refugee is allowed to visit a sick family member for short periods..
 
  • Like
Reactions: velaven

Officer Green

Full Member
Nov 10, 2017
43
18
im in the same boat!! lets hope nothing will happen..
Well, as other people have suggested don't use the renewed passport even if you have it. My guess is, they will not spare someone with suspicious history, frequent visitor to the country and probably someone with longer stay in home country. But this was my understanding after reading few court decisions on cessation.

For you and @Derut who says who did not know about the passport renewal I want to share an example from the court decision (I don't have the link, you may search it). Refugee protection board has posted suggestions in its website about what not to do clearly. Also in the refugee protection board's website they have listed one example where a person's refugee status cessation was dismissed by the court: even though he renewed the passport, he did not use it. (I don't mean that you should renew your passport, however, as you have already done it, it can be still okay if you don't use it based on these examples).

In one case a resettled protected person renewed the passport and traveled to Afghanistan for a couple of times, CBSA requested for cessation and the board granted. But in the court the guy told he was unaware about the consequences of the passport renewal and his lawyer had advised him that he could renew the passport. Based on that point court said the guy did not re-avail voluntarily but did it because of a wrong advice, appeal for re-hearing granted.

Another case, a protected person from Afghanistan, visited his home country, lost his passport and PR card, made a new passport, got a PRTD and came to Canada. Someone had already used his lost passport and PR card and traveled to Canada before that guy reported the police/authorities. That travel was 2 days before the protected person reported about the lost passport and PR card to the authority. Refugee status cessation based on re-availment followed then he applied to the court. The person was found not credible and suspected of being involved in human trafficking (on top of re-availment), no further hearing allowed, appeal dismissed.


Its up to you to analyze and conclude from the incidents. They also give the hint about the credibility and activities of some people claiming the protection, and probably why authorities become concerned.
 
Last edited:

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,438
3,183
Now I am totally worried. I am usually very meticulous but I failed when I accepted bad advice and renewed my passport(even if I didn’t use it).
As others have observed, the odds are very, very good that this will NOT result in the commencement of cessation proceedings. Moreover, while having done this raises the presumption of reavailment, for the individual who has not traveled to his or her home country, and especially the person who has never used it for travel, that presumption is easily rebutted.

I am not one to proclaim 100% anything, but you should have NOTHING TO WORRY ABOUT.



I hope MP Jenny Kwan doesn't limit the advocation only for those who visit a terminally ill family member, but also include any other visiting home country for other humane reason as long as during the visit he/she doesn't try to reavail him/herself (living temporarely, secretly).
My reference to visiting a terminally ill family member is merely illustrative of just how draconian and unjust the Harper/Kenney law can be (and under Harper's government was being) employed.

Reason or duration of travel to the home country would be irrelevant under the Bill proposed by MP Kwan (NDP). Even explicit reavailment would not result in loss of PR status. Which is what the law was until December 2012.

In particular, MP Kwan's Private Member's Bill, Bill C-294, simply repeals the provision in IRPA (Immigration and Refugee Protection Act) which provides that the cessation of protected person status (this is Subsection 46(1)(c.1) IRPA) terminates Permanent Resident status. This would restore the law to what it was prior to Harper's Bill, which took effect in December 2012. That is, it would restore the previous law pursuant to which once the refugee became a Permanent Resident even an overt, explicit reavailment would NOT cause loss of PR status.

For MP Kwan's Bill C-294 see
http://www.parl.ca/LegisInfo/BillDetails.aspx?Language=E&billId=8274877
http://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-294/first-reading

There are many strong, reasonable arguments for this, largely rooted in the nature and purpose of the law and policies underlying the grant of Canadian PR status. In terms of general fairness, for Canada to offer and grant someone PERMANENT status to settle and live in Canada, and to RENEGE on that just because the PR has visited family in his or her home country, is blatantly UNJUST.

But, to be open, some reasonable, viable arguments may be made otherwise as to certain cases, largely rooted in identifying those cases in which the Canadian refugee program might be abused or exploited as an alternative immigration stream.

Indeed, when the Harper government tabled and adopted Bill C-31 (in the 41st Parliament), the then Minister of CIC, Jason Kenney, said the legislation was aimed ONLY at those persons "who have done something to demonstrate essentially that they have defrauded our system," and in particular identified those who obtain status in Canada and then, "shortly after receiving such status," they return TO LIVE in their country of origin as an example.

Which to some extent makes sense.

Noting, however, the law already provided for stripping status from those who have "defrauded" the system . . . and those provisions can be applied even AFTER the individual becomes a citizen. Misrepresentation or fraud in any step of the process, from the very first application for protected person status, remains grounds for revoking status in Canada essentially FOREVER (except fraud in the application specifically for citizenship is only grounds for revoking citizenship; fraud in any step leading up to obtaining PR status, in contrast, is grounds for losing all status and becoming inadmissible to Canada).

Regarding such matters, it was easy to tell when either Harper or Kenney (current leader of the United Conservative Party in Alberta) was lying: their lips were moving. So it should not have come as a surprise that this law, purportedly to be used ONLY against those who demonstrated they had committed fraud in obtaining status in Canada, was almost immediately implemented to target, among others, PR-refugees applying for citizenship, individuals who had long established their life in Canada, many with children born in Canada, who had NOT returned to "live" in their country of origin but who had merely met a rather low threshold for alleging reavailment, suspended their citizenship applications, and successfully persuaded the courts that no matter how long and deeply settled in Canada these individuals had become, they were NOT EVEN ENTITLED TO ANY CONSIDERATION OF HUMANE OR COMPASSIONATE factors. Yes, it is true, hardened criminals with long and very serious criminal histories, are entitled to more procedural safeguards and ultimately more ways to stay in Canada, H&C protections included, than the PR-refugee with NO criminal record at all and a history of settling in and positively contributing to Canadian society, who can lose all status in Canada with NO consideration given to H&C factors at all. Did someone mention "injustice?"

It is worth emphasizing one particular aspect of Harper's draconian measure which was especially unjust, the implementation of what in effect really was an ex-post facto penalty, employed to purge PRs who relied on the previous law and under it did indeed return to their home country openly, all of which was OK under the prior law . . . legally OK when they traveled to the home country . . . For anyone who thinks the government cannot enact laws which have a detrimental retroactive impact, this is a stark example otherwise, IT CAN and IT HAS, and scores were in fact stripped of their PR status based on going to their home country when that was perfectly OK under the law at the time they did it. In one of the cases the grounds for cessation and terminating the individual's PR status were based on travel to the home country nearly a full decade before the law was changed.

BUT, again to be open, reasonable arguments can be made (in contrast to some arguments recently populating this topic which are unreasonable, unfounded, poorly conceived and contrary to Canadian law as well as principles of jurisprudence generally, so much so as to warrant no further attention) that would give the government better tools to discourage exploitation or abuse of Canada's refugee policies, which in most respects are rather generous (compared to Canada's situation; but also recognizing the worldwide need for more destinations of refuge is massively greater than is being met).

My impression is that the current government approaches this with considerable discretion and likely limits who is actually targeted for cessation to more or less more blatant and egregious cases. That is, my sense is that IRCC and CBSA are OK with the law as is while endeavoring to be just in its application, as a matter of internal practice and policy. Theoretically this should be OK, at least most of the time. But that is only true if in fact the officers actually do exercise their discretion ONLY to target those who appear to be abusing or exploiting the system. Anyone with much familiarity with how authorities exercise such broad discretion in practice, however, is all too familiar with how often such discretion is abused (survey minorities about their interactions with law enforcement, for example). Moreover, no matter how reasonable and JUST this government's policy is, relative to how it applies the cessation law, NEXT YEAR there may be another Conservative government which can take a very different, far more severe and perhaps unjust approach. That is, even if the current government's policy and approach is substantively fair and just, that offers virtually NO protection from unjust practices by the government elected in 2019.

Moreover, and importantly, the current status of this is largely UNKNOWN. The actual policy and practice of the Liberal government is largely UNKNOWN. We do not actually know who is being targeted. We do not have an inkling of what criteria the current government is employing. Will it shrug off a four week visit to the home country but go after someone who stayed more than 30 days? We do not know.

There are persuasive arguments to be made that secret criteria, the lack of transparency, is itself unfair and unjust. Canada's PRs should be entitled to know what the actual, practical rules are, what is acceptable and what is not.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,438
3,183
IF CIRCUMSTANCES IN COUNTRY OF ORIGIN HAVE CHANGED:

Without revisiting some of the commentary, especially those absurd claims to be explaining why the law is what it is with a remarkably poor grasp of what the law actually is, it warrants clarifying that a PR-refugee's PR status CANNOT be terminated, meaning it IS NOT terminated, if the cessation of protected person status is based on "reasons for which the person sought refugee protection have ceased to exist." This ground for cessation is prescribed by Section 108(1)(e) IRPA (should link), and thus is grounds for cessation generally BUT cessation for this ground does NOT terminate PR status (only cessation based on the grounds prescribed in Section 108(1)(a) to (d) IRPA, NOT 108(1)(e), results in termination of PR status; see Subsection 46(1)(c.1) IRPA (should link)).

Obviously, it the reasons for which the PR sought refugee protection no longer exist, there is no reason why the PR should not visit the home country.

Which makes the application of other provisions in Section 108(1) IRPA complicated when considering the affected person's PR status and the application of Section 46(1)(c.1) IRPA . . . in particular, for example, if a PR-refugee obtains a home country passport in order to facilitate visiting family in the home country AND NOT to reavail himself of home country protection, the PR-refugee having assessed that conditions in the home country will NOT pose the danger he or she fled (whether generally or contingent on the manner in which the individual travels in the home country), that SHOULD SUFFICE to rebut the presumption of reavailment (reavailment is the ground of cessation prescribed in Subsection 108(1)(a) IRPA). Big gap, however, between what the RPD SHOULD conclude and what it will in practice conclude in any given case. This can be a tricky argument to make, very tricky. It depends on how certain acts are interpreted. It could depend on how skilled and savvy the PR's lawyer is. It could depend on the personal attitude of the RPD. And it will of course depend a great deal on the particular facts and circumstances (how much difference will a visit for forty days make versus one for ten days? just for example).

It is critical that the lawyer making such a case be well-acquainted with the difference between a refugee without PR status and one with PR status. If, for example (and as I recall there is at least one case in which a Federal Court has upheld this), the lawyer can persuade the RPD that yes, Section 108(1)(e) IRPA is a ground for cessation, and so determine, without concluding there is any of the other grounds for cessation, the individual would no longer have protected person status BUT WOULD NOT LOSE PR STATUS. Huge. Really huge. But again, this can be and most likely will be tricky. And there is a real risk it does not succeed.


Otherwise: The overriding problem remains that we do not know what the government's current actual policies and practices are. PR-refugees thus should avoid doing anything which can be interpreted to be reavailment. Those who have already obtained a home country passport and used it, especially for travel to the home country, continue to be in the dark about how this is going to affect their life, their status in Canada, their future.

In any event, NOT all grounds for cessation will be a basis for terminating PR status. And, in particular, the fact that due to changes the person could safely return to the home country is NOT a basis for terminating PR status.


Edit to add: This aspect of this issue MAKES IT IMPERATIVE TO BE REPRESENTED BY A LAWYER if or when cessation proceedings are commenced, or if it is apparent the PR is being investigated for possible cessation. It cannot be overstated how tricky making the case before the RPD can be . . . and the Federal Courts have emphasized they will NOT consider any arguments which were not raised in the RPD proceedings.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sopranotb

vensak

VIP Member
Jul 14, 2016
3,868
1,017
124
Category........
Visa Office......
Vienna
NOC Code......
1225
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
http://www.unhcr.org/4d93528a9.pdf

Where a refugee visits his former home country not with a national passport but, for example, with a travel document issued by his country of residence, he has been considered by certain States to have re-availed himself of the protection of his former home country and to have lost his refugee status under the present cessation clause. Cases of this kind should, however, be judged on their individual merits. Visiting an old or sick parent will have a different bearing on the refugee's relation to his former home country than regular visits to that country spent on holidays or for the purpose of establishing business relations.

I guess here is where you got the idea. No, that does not give a green light to do so. It merely states that the cases shall be checked individually and that such visit shall be taken with more compassion. So with that said you would be again on mercy of a judge checking your case.

And about passports:
A refugee may have voluntarily obtained a national passport, intending either to avail himself of the protection of his country of origin while staying outside that country, or to return to that country. As stated above, with the receipt of such a document he normally ceases to be a refugee. If he subsequently renounces either intention, his refugee status will need to be determined afresh. He will need to explain why he changed his mind, and to show that there has been no basic change in the conditions that originally made him a refugee.

So as you can see returning with your national passport bears stronger evidence of re-availment.

And also protection while staying abroad includes travelling to 3rd countries or an intention to do so.

So one can await fresh evaluation of ones status, where it is harder to prove the refuge since you stayed away longer time.

So now you can post a link where opposite of this UNCHR manual is stated.
 

ANTONIUS125

Newbie
Feb 17, 2018
5
3
Let me introduce you to the Maslow theory. It is talking about priorities in the human life and about how satisfying more basic things takes priority against those more advanced.
So here is the list:
1. life preservation and safety - that you are not in danger.
2. water and basic food - once your life is safe you secure these so that your body can keep on going
3. Shelter - somewhere where you will be protected against harsh weather
4. Social needs - that is family and friends. Well only when you are safe, fed and sheltered you think about having children or visiting friends
5. Self realisation - hobbies or job career.

Now to your points:
Feeling home sick or missing your family belongs to nr. 4 - social needs. But if the very place where your family or friends live does not meet the very basic need (life preservation and safety), then you would not risk it. And if you would risk it, that means that you consider danger to be actually low for whatever reasons (for example change of government, change of law in your country or stabilization if the country was in war or civil war). So it is only logical, that you do not need the temporary shelter given by other country.
Like I said: for some cases, going back home country for short period secretly won't put you in danger. Hence the danger or the fear of danger become irrelevant.

Your case fit to refugee who avoid war in their home country while the war is still ongoing, that means he will still face danger/threat even if he visit his home country for short period and secretly. While I am referring to other kind of refugee (refugee based on persecution on LGBT, or gender) where country/government cannot give protection.

Being somewhere for a short period of time against long period (temporary or permanent). All it takes is one bullet in your head or one knife in your heart (or enough stones from an angry mob). That does not take much time to be done. If you claim that you are unable to live somewhere (any day longer, that is why you have escaped in a first place), then returning in such place (where you never know when you will be killed or tortured and then killed) would not make sense (other than having a death wish)
I will get the bullet, if the vigilante that I fear about know I am present in this country and able to find me.

Tell me, how the vigilante that I fear will be able to find me, if they don't know where I stay, especially they dont know/are aware that I am back in that country? :)

So the logic is, that if you assume that you can return and stay safely there again, then actual danger must be much lower. Because at the end of the day you are still citizen of that country so if ever you get imprisoned, kidnapped or killed, Canada cannot step in for your protection since it is your very country that shall do so. All they can do is to denounce violence that is happening to the citizens of their country.
Remember the key word => "for short time" and "secretly".

Means that : you visit your home country as tourist, secretive tourist more exactly. The danger you said become irrelevant for this case.

As for not exposing. In order to become refugee you would have to prove, that your particular life is threatened and no matter what you do you would be found and tortured or killed. So how can you now talking about not exposing yourself if you were not able to hide before?
You have to understand the meaning and definition of "persecution" in the first place.

Persecution is not limited to being "tortured physically" or being "killed". Living disconnected to the world is also a same real persecution. Otherwise, there wont be any single person of LGBT or anyone who profess a certain religion and claim for protection will be accepted by Canada or US, because as you said actually they are able to live relatively safe by living secretly throughout his life - hiding him/herself - being disconnected from society, not working, and stay at changing hotels along his life in that country. In fact Canada accept them as refugee, that means living this kind of life is considered living under persecution.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: sopranotb

sopranotb

Star Member
Jul 18, 2015
96
15
Like I said: for some cases, going back home country for short period secretly won't put you in danger. Hence the danger or the fear of danger become irrelevant.

Your case fit to refugee who avoid war in their home country while the war is still ongoing, that means he will still face danger/threat even if he visit his home country for short period and secretly. While I am referring to other kind of refugee (refugee based on persecution on LGBT, or gender) where country/government cannot give protection.



I will get the bullet, if the vigilante that I fear about know I am present in this country and able to find me.

Tell me, how the vigilante that I fear will be able to find me, if they don't know where I stay, especially they dont know/are aware that I am back in that country? :)



Remember the key word => "for short time" and "secretly".

Means that : you visit your home country as tourist, secretive tourist more exactly. The danger you said become irrelevant for this case.



You have to understand the meaning and definition of "persecution" in the first place.

Persecution is not limited to being "tortured physically" or being "killed". Living disconnected to the world is also a same real persecution. Otherwise, there wont be any single person of LGBT or anyone who profess a certain religion and claim for protection will be accepted by Canada or US, because as you said actually they are able to live relatively safe by living secretly throughout his life - hiding him/herself - being disconnected from society, not working, and stay at changing hotels along his life in that country. In fact Canada accept them as refugee, that means living this kind of life is considered living under persecution.
@ANTONIUS125 you are impressing me man, keep it up bro.. God blesses