Police Certificate requirement for countries where an individual spent 6+ months

[dpenabill]

dpenabill,

Thanks for your reply however fact is that old form (CIT002E-2) (dated 06-2017) point 6 L or M clearly says:

"In the six (6) years immediately before the date of your application or since you became a permanent resident, which ever is most recent."

Within this context, 4 years (out of 6) was actual required period (before bill C-6) to be eligible for citizenship. So the calculation was, if you are staying outside Canada for 183 days or more within those 6 years then you are required to submit a Police Certificate from respective country where you accumulated those 183 days..

In bill C-6, this became 3 years (out of 5 yrs), hence there's a correction needed in understanding for these situations:

1. Those who came to Canada & their eligibility started before they became landed immigrant (assuming they have no tie up with Canada as student, worker, refuge etc. before) and they neither traveled outside Canada nor stayed 183 days - they are technically NOT required to submit any PC for the period when they were outside.

2. Those who came to Canada & their eligibility started before they became landed immigrant (assuming they have no tie up with Canada as student, worker, refuge etc. before) and they traveled & lived outside (cumulative 183 days or more) - then they MUST submit a PC for the period when they were outside, which is 183 days.

Here comes a tricky situation:

3. Those who came to Canada & their eligibility started before they became landed immigrant (assuming they had no tie up with Canada as student, worker, refuge etc. before) and they traveled & lived outside (cumulative 120 days only) during their eligibility period - but they were outside Canada (assuming) for 5 months (151 days) before getting immigrant visa & landing, they are NOT required to submit Police Certificate even though they were outside Canada for more than 183 days i.e. 120+151 during their eligibility period.

This is what I pointed as all calculations for 183 days (stay outside) would start only when you started your ties with Canada. Probably the new form question should say ...within last 5 years or since when you became landed immigrant or started ties with Canada (as now student, worker, refuge are getting half-day credit for 2 yrs stay as 1 yr).

Hope you get my question now.

Thanks

You are conflating the physical presence requirement with what IRCC has administratively determined is the criteria for requiring applicants to submit proof (police certificate) that they have no criminal convictions in another country during the four (4) years preceding the date they apply for citizenship.

Nothing in Bill C-6 changed the prohibition for convictions in another country. The relevant period of time for this prohibition has always been four years (this prohibition was added to the Citizenship Act by Bill C-24 in 2014, and came into force in May, 2015). The prohibition for foreign convictions is prescribed in Subsection 22(3) of the Citizenship Act, and its applicability to "the four year period immediately before the date of the person's application" is Subsection 22(3)(a) in particular. See http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/page-6.html#docCont

dpenabill,

Thanks for your reply however fact is that old form (CIT002E-2) (dated 06-2017) point 6 L or M clearly says:

"In the six (6) years immediately before the date of your application or since you became a permanent resident, which ever is most recent."

This is misleading (I cannot discern whether deliberately so or not) and in context otherwise erroneously referenced.

Since you use the disjunctive (6 L "OR" M), it is a correct statement. That is because this is what that form says for item 6.L, which has nothing to do with item 6.M and, rather, poses questions related to qualifying for Crown Service credit toward meeting the physical presence requirement. (which, again, has nothing to do with the criteria for who must submit proof of no prohibition for a particular country, nothing to do with who needs to include a police certificate with their application).

I correctly quoted, in my previous post, precisely what it says in the June 2017 version of CIT 0002, which is the same as previous versions as well, including for example the 10-2016 version, the same going back to the first version of this respective item in a citizenship application with a police certificate requirement, the 06-2015 version (again, following when Section 22(3) in the Citizenship Act, imposing a prohibition for convictions outside Canada, came into force in May 2015).

In the forms in use prior to October 11, 2017, going back to the June 2015 version which was the first version after the four year prohibition for convictions in other countries took effect (which was in late May 2015), the item was 6.M. and it stated:

In the past four (4) years, were you present in a country, other than Canada, for a total of 183 days or more?
[No] [Yes] - If you have checked "YES", indicate each country in the box below. You must provide police certificates for each country where you have been present for 183 days or more. If you cannot get a police certificate from a country, provide details in the box below.

Again, this is an accurate quote from the citizenship application form for this item in all versions of the adult application form for applications made between June 11, 2015 and October 11, 2017, including in particular, for example, versions CIT 0002 (10-2016)E and CIT 0002 (06-2017)E

In particular the following (from your post) is simply wrong (while the first premise is correct, the conclusions do NOT follow):

"Within this context, 4 years (out of 6) was actual required period (before bill C-6) to be eligible for citizenship. So the calculation was, if you are staying outside Canada for 183 days or more within those 6 years then you are required to submit a Police Certificate from respective country where you accumulated those 183 days.

In bill C-6, this became 3 years (out of 5 yrs), hence there's a correction needed in understanding for these situations:"

Yes, for applications made between June 11, 2015 and October 11, 2017, eligibility for citizenship was based on the 4/6 presence rule. But NO, the requirement to submit a police certificate with the application did NOT take into account any days in another country more than FOUR years prior to the date of the application, even if the applicant had been a PR more than four years, or more than six years. The requirement to submit a police certificate was specifically triggered if the applicant was in another country for 183 or more days within the preceding FOUR years. Which is continues to be the requirement since nothing has changed in the statutory provision (again, Subsection 22(3)(a) in the Citizenship Act) it is based on.

While the physical presence requirement did become a 3/5 rule on October 11, 2017, pursuant to Bill C-6, this has NOTHING to do with the applicable prohibition for convictions outside Canada (any conviction outside Canada within the previous four years prohibits a grant of citizenship). Item 10.b in the current application form does NOT require any correction to understand how it applies to any of the situations you describe.

 

[dpenabill]

It is also important to understand there is NO statute, NO regulation, which requires any applicant to submit a police certificate in order to be eligible for citizenship.

The relevant statutory requirement is that an applicant have no convictions in another country during the FOUR years preceding the day the application is made. Again, this is Subsection 22(3)(a) in the Citizenship Act.

The Citizenship regulations (Regulation 2(1) in the Citizenship Regulations, No. 2 in particular (should link)) give the Minister authority to prescribe what information and documentation must be submitted to make an application for citizenship. While this regulation prescribes some specific information and materials which must be submitted to make an application, and a requirement that the application contain "evidence that establishes that the applicant meets the [physical presence] requirements" (a rather general description of what is required), it does NOT prescribe any particular information or documentation to prove there are no prohibitions, including the prohibition for foreign convictions within the preceding four years.

Which is to recognize that item 10.b in the application is part of the application pursuant to an administrative decision, as in "determined by the Minister."

Of course, what the Minister requires is subject to general procedural fairness principles and thus must be reasonable. This is a big subject best reserved for another conversation. For purposes of this discussion, the thing to understand is that the Minister (IRCC in practice) has determined the criteria for who is required to submit proof of no convictions abroad in the preceding four years in the form of a police certificate from a particular country.

The criteria is 183 days or more presence in another country during the preceding four years.

The proof required, for those who meet this criteria, is a police certificate from each such country.

This is what is prescribed in Item 10.b, just like item 6.M in previous versions of the citizenship application.

There really is no reason at all to question or be confused about this. Again, this is very straight-forward, in order to prove there are no convictions in another country during the preceding four years, applicants are required to declare whether they have been in another country for a total of 183 or more days during that four year time period, and if so, to EITHER submit a police certificate from that country or explain why they cannot do so.

But who needs to submit a police certificate is not mandated by either statute or regulation, so IRCC has total discretion in how strictly this is implemented and enforced. This is particularly so relative to particular individuals. IRCC may very well be quite liberal in allowing exceptions. IRCC might readily waive the requirement to submit a police certificate for applicants who in effect assert it is not reasonable to require them to do so because they have not been to the respective country since landing and becoming a PR. Emphasis on IRCC MIGHT be so liberal. There is no sign so far from IRCC that they will be that liberal.

In the meantime, there is NO DOUBT, really none at all, if an applicant was in another country a total of 183 or more days within the preceding FOUR years, regardless the various scenarios related to how many of those days preceded when the person became a PR, the proper response to item 10.b is to check "yes." No doubt about that at all. If an applicant believes he should not, or even does not need to submit a police certificate, despite checking "yes" (such as because all days in that country preceded coming to and landing as a PR in Canada), that applicant can submit an explanation why rather than a police certificate and see how it goes.

My sense is any explanation gets past the completeness check screening. So checking "yes" but then stating something to the effect "no police certificate necessary because time in the other country was prior to becoming a PR" probably will not result in the application being returned. How this will be handled in the course of local office processing and assessment is another matter. My sense is that it could vary depending on the particular individual, but that generally IRCC will require a police certificate from most, if not nearly all applicants who were in another country 183+ days, even if those days preceded when that person became a PR.

 

[dpenabill]

So its safe to apply for citizenship when ur here 3yrs and 7months.

I am looking for answer to this question.

I hope to avoid coming across as snarky, so let me first offer a direct response to what the question appears to obviously be about: yes.

"Yes," in particular, it is OK to check "No" for item 10.b, and therefore not submit any police certificate, if the applicant has been physically present in Canada for at least 3 years and 184 days since the last time the applicant was in another country.

But of course whether a PR should apply, and when, is about a lot, lot more than how the applicant needs to respond to Item 10.b

My preferred response to a question like this, which I was afraid might come across snarky, is that the prospective applicant needs to decide for himself or herself WHEN is the right time to apply for citizenship based on a personal assessment of many relevant factors in his or her situation (for many it can be a mistake to make this decision based only when they just meet the minimum physical presence requirement). And, for purposes of potentially needing a police certificate, follow the instructions; as the application form clearly prescribes: count the total number of days spent in a country (other than Canada) during the preceding four years, and if the total is 183 or more, check "yes" in response to item 10.b And if "yes" is checked, follow the instructions by listing the country and either providing a police certificate or give an explanation why not.

That said, this question does illuminate an aspect of this which many prospective applicants might appreciate: those who apprehend reason to avoid obtaining a police certificate (but who doubt IRCC will accept their explanation for why it is too difficult to obtain one) can indeed, in effect, avoid the need to submit a police certificate by WAITING to apply long enough that the days they were in the other country during the preceding four years falls below 183.

There is a caveat, however. Less than 183 days in a country during the preceding four years means the applicant does not need to check "yes" in response to item 10.b and thus does not need to submit a police certificate with the application. That does NOT guarantee IRCC will not ask for a police certificate anyway. IRCC can ask an applicant to submit a police certificate from another country any time during the processing of the application. Such a request would likely be deemed reasonable so long as the applicant spent any significant amount of time in that country, which could be way less than 183 days, OR if IRCC has some indication of a possible criminal case against the applicant in that country.

So, waiting long enough so the applicant can truthfully check "no" in item 10.b means no police certificate is needed to make the application and probably none will be requested later in the process, but that does not guarantee IRCC will not later request one.

Reminder: applicants are otherwise required to disclose any conviction abroad during the preceding four years, in response to Item 16, regardless how many or how few days they were in the country.

 

[quasar81]

Ladies and gentlemen,
Go get your Police clearance certificates if you have been out of Canada in any country for 183 days out of last 4 years.
It says in clear English in Application form. You need it.

depnabill did excellent explanation. Just go get it.
Moderator - can you please stick depnabill's efforts to top of this thread so that no one ask it again. He has explained it 5-6 times same thing on different threads....and folks ask again.

 

[NN74]

This is misleading (I cannot discern whether deliberately so or not) and in context otherwise erroneously referenced.

Since you use the disjunctive (6 L "OR" M), it is a correct statement. That is because this is what that form says for item 6.L, which has nothing to do with item 6.M and, rather, poses questions related to qualifying for Crown Service credit toward meeting the physical presence requirement. (which, again, has nothing to do with the criteria for who must submit proof of no prohibition for a particular country, nothing to do with who needs to include a police certificate with their application).

Again, this is an accurate quote from the citizenship application form for this item in all versions of the adult application form for applications made between June 11, 2015 and October 11, 2017, including in particular, for example, versions CIT 0002 (10-2016)E and CIT 0002 (06-2017)E

dpenabill,
Good to see your judgmental replies; am not sure why are you saying 6 L or M has no relation. 6 L says entire 6 years period out of which 6 M expedites 4 years eligibility period (physical presence in Canada) but great point is that IRCC had clearly defined eligibility period in old forms. Anyway!

But who needs to submit a police certificate is not mandated by either statute or regulation, so IRCC has total discretion in how strictly this is implemented and enforced. This is particularly so relative to particular individuals. IRCC may very well be quite liberal in allowing exceptions. IRCC might readily waive the requirement to submit a police certificate for applicants who in effect assert it is not reasonable to require them to do so because they have not been to the respective country since landing and becoming a PR. Emphasis on IRCC MIGHT be so liberal. There is no sign so far from IRCC that they will be that liberal.

I like your above statement; its not a matter of being liberal or tolerant; you are not sure what is the correct status from IRCC for those applicants whom I mentioned in my earlier post as Situation 1 or 3 below:

1. Those who came to Canada & their eligibility started before they became landed immigrant (assuming they have no tie up with Canada as student, worker, refuge etc. before) and they neither traveled outside Canada nor stayed 183 days - they are technically NOT required to submit any PC for the period when they were outside.

Here comes a tricky situation:

3. Those who came to Canada & their eligibility started before they became landed immigrant (assuming they had no tie up with Canada as student, worker, refuge etc. before) and they traveled & lived outside (cumulative 120 days only) during their eligibility period - but they were outside Canada (assuming) for 5 months (151 days) before getting immigrant visa & landing, they are NOT required to submit Police Certificate even though they were outside Canada for more than 183 days i.e. 120+151 during their eligibility period.

I checked with IRCC agent, supervisor, and finally their customer support manager during a 102-min long call with examples such as defining eligibility period, relevant 3 years (when no ties before), and 183 days Police Certificate requirements. Their response is exactly same as mine which I mentioned in my previous post:

Situation 1 - Police certificate not required
Situation 3 - Police certificate not required
Situation 2 - PC must be submitted as 183+ days requirements started with your ties with Canada; be it as PR or student or refuge or work-permit holder.

They have an interesting explanation. First, they are aware of it and planning to change the wording in new form. Second, they are of the view that 4 years period is mentioned in new form just because some applicants would be claiming days for their ties with Canada as student, work-permit holders, or refuge etc before becoming PR up to 1 year. So the figure 4 years is mentioned for Police certificate requirement as during that period they might have gone to their home country, stayed there for couple of months & returned to Canada.

Equation is very interesting for 5 years window:

Citizenship eligibility (3 yrs) = 2 years as student/work permit/refuge (=1 yr) + 2 yrs stay in Canada [that's how 4 yrs window is mentioned as maximum]
Citizenship eligibility (3 yrs) = 1 years as student/work permit/refuge (=0.5 yr) + 2.5 yrs stay in Canada
and so on.

So there are 100% chances that applicants would have gone back home-town & accumulated 183 days outside stay during their eligibility period.

Whereas in old form, this 4 years means straight four years of your eligibility period when you were not allowed to claim your time period in Canada as student, work-permit holder, or refuge.

Anyway thanks for very productive discussion. Your detailed replies are appreciated but no more conversation from my end as this is sorted out with the help of IRCC team. You could also check with them to have first hand info, if there's need of further clarification.

Thanks again!

 

[NN74]

My only advise to applicants is to call IRCC and check with them about your specific situation as PC is required or not in your situation.

Pl dont delay your citizenship application (just because of missing PC - you assumed) or spend time/resources in getting Police certificate when it is not required as per your specific situation.

Always make an informed decision with IRCC's help.

Ladies and gentlemen,
Go get your Police clearance certificates if you have been out of Canada in any country for 183 days out of last 4 years.
It says in clear English in Application form. You need it.

depnabill did excellent explanation. Just go get it.
Moderator - can you please stick depnabill's efforts to top of this thread so that no one ask it again. He has explained it 5-6 times same thing on different threads....and folks ask again.

 

[Freedomsong]

Hi all,

I need some clarification on this police certificate requirement. Here is the situation: my husband currently meets physical presence requirement as he has been living here for 3 out of five years this month. Prior to that he was in his home country. I see that CIC requires police certificate for 183 days of residence for the 4 year period during eligibility. Even though this was my husbands country of residence before immigrating, will he need a police certificate? This seems like overkill to me as he would not have been granted PR if he had a criminal record in the first place. Thank you.

 

[razerblade]

Hi all,

I need some clarification on this police certificate requirement. Here is the situation: my husband currently meets physical presence requirement as he has been living here for 3 out of five years this month. Prior to that he was in his home country. I see that CIC requires police certificate for 183 days of residence for the 4 year period during eligibility. Even though this was my husbands country of residence before immigrating, will he need a police certificate? This seems like overkill to me as he would not have been granted PR if he had a criminal record in the first place. Thank you.

Yes, as per IRCC, he still needs to submit a PCC. This has been addressed hundreds of times since Oct 11.

Here is an official tweet from IRCC confirming it:

https://twitter.com/CitImmCanada/status/920045422848233472

 

[Freedomsong]

Yes, as per IRCC, he still needs to submit a PCC. This has been addressed hundreds of times since Oct 11.

Here is an official tweet from IRCC confirming it:

https://twitter.com/CitImmCanada/status/920045422848233472

Thank you

 

[Monkeybar]

How to count 4 years?
Let say application is being signed 10/30/2017

Is 4 yrs period counted as 10/30/2013-10/30/2017

Or they look at the full calendar year starting on January 2013 to December 2017?

Thanks

 

[dpenabill]

How to count 4 years?
Let say application is being signed 10/30/2017

Is 4 yrs period counted as 10/30/2013-10/13/2017

Or they look at the full calendar year starting on January 2013 to December 2017?

Thanks

Not calendar years.

The relevant four years is based on the day's date. For application signed 10/30/2017, count days in another country between 10/30/2013 and 10/29/2017.

 

[Monkeybar]

Not calendar years.

The relevant four years is based on the day's date. For application signed 10/30/2017, count days in another country between 10/30/2013 and 10/29/2017.

thanks man

 

[prabhjotmehrok]

Hello,

I would appreciate if someone can help me giving some advice. I sent application for citizenship last week and probably it is not delivered to CIC yet. I have lived in USA for more than 183 days cumulative in last 4 years but never continuously for more than 183 days and in my application I answered No instead of Yes. I can get Police clearance from USA. What shall I do about this?

 

[razerblade]

Hello,

I would appreciate if someone can help me giving some advice. I sent application for citizenship last week and probably it is not delivered to CIC yet. I have lived in USA for more than 183 days cumulative in last 4 years but never continuously for more than 183 days and in my application I answered No instead of Yes. I can get Police clearance from USA. What shall I do about this?

cumulative is what they count. If you sent it via some courier service, see if you can intercept it before it's delivered. Otherwise, wait till you get get AOR, then you can use the webform or call them to inform about the mistake. And yes, you need a PCC from the US (FBI clearance is taking 3 months on average I believe). Contact them after AOR and see what your options are.

 

[Stef.]

Hello,

I would appreciate if someone can help me giving some advice. I sent application for citizenship last week and probably it is not delivered to CIC yet. I have lived in USA for more than 183 days cumulative in last 4 years but never continuously for more than 183 days and in my application I answered No instead of Yes. I can get Police clearance from USA. What shall I do about this?

Under the old rules you can submit it at any time after aor. I am not sure about the new rules though. My friend was told during the interview that she needed it and supplied it a day later (she is from Turkey and they can get police certificate online immediately) It did not slow down her processing time. As said, this refers to old rules.