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PR card renewal while living abroad with canadian sponsor/spouse

armoured

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No idea, really; only relaying info from an airline employee at some previous point in time. The agent said that's why the language from IRCC is passive when stating that without a valid PR card, the traveller may not be able to return to Canada via a commercial carrier. This may suggest that US passport holders are indeed given a pass.

Might find something here:
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/international/bilateral_agreements/overview
That has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. Let's just drop this line, it doesn't shine any light upon the topic.

Agree that airline employees don't always know. Sometimes one has ot insist, or show the regulations that state US passport holders don't need.
 

Ponga

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That has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic. Let's just drop this line, it doesn't shine any light upon the topic.

Agree that airline employees don't always know. Sometimes one has ot insist, or show the regulations that state US passport holders don't need.
It most certainly does have something to do with post #27, so I'm fine with me not `dropping this line'.
FWIW, have you ever found evidence that a U.S. passport holder does not need a valid PR card? If not, how can you be so certain?
 

armoured

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It most certainly does have something to do with post #27, so I'm fine with me not `dropping this line'.
FWIW, have you ever found evidence that a U.S. passport holder does not need a valid PR card? If not, how can you be so certain?
You provided two links - do either of them have relevance in a way you can explain?

All I see are two anodyne paragraphs that state that the laws of each party (country) respecting immigration and customs apply. No shit, sherlock. That's a dead-end for anyone trying to figure something out.

Yes, I have seen links about the US passport holders issue. It's exactly as described. I'll try to find but I'm lazy.
 
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canuck78

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As responded, you don't need PTRD or even your PR card to board a flight to Canada as US passport holder. So you don't need to apply for a PR card just because it has expired.
To apply for PR card renewal, you need to be physcially in Canada. If you apply while you are not there (or ask a relative to apply for you inside) and pretended that you applied inside Canada, you are misrepresenting yourself. I don't see the reason of taking the risk of a PR card that you not need to travel back.

Wait till you visit Canada again and apply for renewal inside.
Most living abroad are required to come to Canada to pick up their new PR card. Given you are a US citizen don’t see the need to renew your Pr card to come to visit Canada. If you want to move back to Canada then I would apply to renew your PR card.
 

armoured

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No shit, sherlock. That's a dead-end for anyone trying to figure something out.
To be clear that comment ('nss') wasn't directed at you. It was me mocking the language in that doc - it's a kind of dumb-ass lawyer fluff that lawyers I know mock, because it's redundant ass-covering (eg among other reasons if you get a contract that says you can break the law, that part of the contract is VOID and possibly worse).
 

Ponga

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To be clear that comment ('nss') wasn't directed at you. It was me mocking the language in that doc - it's a kind of dumb-ass lawyer fluff that lawyers I know mock, because it's redundant ass-covering (eg among other reasons if you get a contract that says you can break the law, that part of the contract is VOID and possibly worse).
Thanks for the clarification...`Watson'.;)

Wouldn't it be great if IRCC could expand upon their language when stating that without a valid PR card, a PR may not be able to return to Canada via a commercial carrier. Clearly, they know how/why and could mention that a U.S. passport holder is generally one of those exceptions. Oh...I know why. It's because they would potentially lose revenue from those aforementioned PRs, choosing not to renew their PR card, right? LOL!

It also doesn't help when a PR sees this:
https://travel.gc.ca/returning/customs/entering-canada

Permanent residents

Permanent residents (immigrants living in Canada who are not yet Canadian citizens) need a valid permanent resident card to return to Canada. Check the expiry date on your card.
---
We know from myriad other topics and threads that this is NOT true. All that is needed to appease `customs' is proof of PR status, which is not limited to a valid PR card, but...I digress.
 
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armoured

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Oh...I know why. It's because they would potentially lose revenue from those aforementioned PRs, choosing not to renew their PR card, right? LOL!
Totally agree, although I doubt it's for revenue generation ability.

I did actually look for it today, but could not find the exact link I had found that made this clear.
 
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armoured

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Wouldn't it be great if IRCC could expand upon their language when stating that without a valid PR card, a PR may not be able to return to Canada via a commercial carrier. Clearly, they know how/why and could mention that a U.S. passport holder is generally one of those exceptions.
I found it! The unholy grail, a clear statement that dual US/Canadian citizens can board a plane and enter on their US passport. "American-Canadians can travel with a valid Canadian or U.S. passport."

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/entry-requirements-country.html#canadian-citizens
 
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Ponga

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I found it! The unholy grail, a clear statement that dual US/Canadian citizens can board a plane and enter on their US passport. "American-Canadians can travel with a valid Canadian or U.S. passport."

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/entry-requirements-country.html#canadian-citizens
Interesting. But...I wouldn't be surprised if the language could trip up an airline agent with an IQ barely above Pi, regarding this:
Canadian permanent residents

Canadian permanent residents need a valid permanent resident card or permanent resident travel document.

U.S. citizens

U.S. citizens must carry proper identification such as a valid U.S. passport.

---
Yep, clearly states that a valid U.S. passport satisfies the entry requirement, BUT you mentioned this for dual citizens as well as American-Canadians. What happens when/if the agent `thinks' that because the person is also a PR of Canada, they need the PR Card as well? LOL! The valid passport should...[wait for it]...`trump' all else.:D
 
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armoured

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Yep, clearly states that a valid U.S. passport satisfies the entry requirement, BUT you mentioned this for dual citizens as well as American-Canadians. What happens when/if the agent `thinks' that because the person is also a PR of Canada, they need the PR Card as well? LOL! The valid passport should...[wait for it]...`trump' all else.:D
Blast, you're right.

Well, at least IRCC hasn't broken any internal rules against being clear enough that people can understand.
 

dpenabill

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An Effort to Clarify (apologies in advance for how clumsily); Comments Re Navigating IRCC Information Versus the Rules . . .

This is not easy stuff. Yes, in many respects IRCC does not make it easy. CBSA likewise. Sigh.

That said, what we know, the take-aways, are relatively straight-forward for purposes of this topic:
-- for PRs living abroad long-term, such as those accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad, what they need to travel to Canada is a central consideration in their decision-making​
-- most PRs outside Canada will need either a valid PR card or PR TD to board a flight to Canada​
-- PRs with status to travel via the U.S. can get around the need for a PR card or PR TD, traveling to the U.S. and then by land to a PoE on the Canadian-U.S. border​
-- PRs who are U.S. citizens, in addition to the capacity to travel to Canada via the U.S., can board a flight directly to Canada using their U.S. passport​

Beyond that, it is into the weeds, a real jungle of weeds . . . for whoever might be interested . . .

Wouldn't it be great if IRCC could expand upon their language when stating that without a valid PR card, a PR may not be able to return to Canada via a commercial carrier. Clearly, they know how/why and could mention that a U.S. passport holder is generally one of those exceptions.
Actually there is NO rule that PRs need either a PR card or PR TD to board a flight to Canada. So it is not that there is an exception to any such rule for Canadian PRs who are a U.S. citizen. The IRCC information that appears to state otherwise consists of generalized interpretations of the rules and how they are applied. This does not exonerate the failure of IRCC, CBSA, or Transport Canada to be more precise, let alone accurate, let alone less confusing.

There is a very specific list of documents that are accepted for the purpose of boarding a flight to Canada. These are documents which explicitly show the traveler has authorization to enter Canada. Only those documents on the list (I believe I have previously referenced and linked the list, a "schedule" as I recall, but I have not put my cursor on it lately). Given a slip-sliding memory, not certain now this is generated by CBSA; could be Transport Canada. This list is published for commercial carriers, precisely prescribing for commercial carriers which specific documents are acceptable.

HOWEVER, generally airline personnel are NOT personally judging which types of documents are acceptable, now, given the full implementation of Advance Passenger Information (API), Passenger Name Record (PNR) and the Interactive Advance Passenger Information (IAPI) Initiative, pursuant to which the decision to allow boarding is automated, the CBSA administrated system giving the airline a board/no-board message when the passenger information is entered into the system, including details regarding the passenger's travel document. (The future arrived awhile before yesterday, so to say.)

If the system is down, or manual screening is otherwise needed, for purposes of determining if the traveler has the appropriate documents meeting immigration requirements, all the airline personnel do is check to see the traveler is presenting one of the specific documents listed as acceptable. No need to know about, let alone understand, any bilateral agreements (which are between countries, not with the airlines) that underlie and are part of the regulatory scheme mandating reciprocal respect, in regards to the U.S. and Canada, for the other country's travel documents.

U.S. passports are on the list of documents which suffice for boarding a flight to Canada, meaning a traveler presenting a U.S. passport has an acceptable document showing authorization to enter Canada sufficient for the purpose of boarding a flight to Canada. Of course Canadian passports are on that list, as are PR cards and PR TDs. Visa-exempt passports with eTA, as are passports with visas for Canada, likewise. It is a relatively short list. It is an exhaustive list in that documents not on the list will not, so to say, fly.

The IRCC information referenced and linked by @armoured is largely consistent with the list and CBSA guidelines, but it is oriented toward providing information to prospective travelers, as in it does not state the rules, but rather states in generalizations IRCC's interpretation of how the rules are applied, what effect they have, stated in a manner to explain to travelers what they need. It is largely (but not entirely or even consistently) in reference to documents needed to "enter" Canada.


. . . a clear statement that dual US/Canadian citizens can board a plane and enter on their US passport. "American-Canadians can travel with a valid Canadian or U.S. passport."

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/visit-canada/entry-requirements-country.html#canadian-citizens
This ostensibly lists "entry requirements," but the references include descriptions of documents needed for "travel" by certain travelers in particular circumstances. See, for example, the information for visa-exempt, eTA eligible travelers, which specifically refers to eTA as needed "to board" flights to Canada, and distinguishes visa-exempt travelers coming to Canada by bus, train, boat, or driving (for whom their visa-exempt passport suffices, so no need for eTA).

The reference to "American-Canadians" traveling with a valid Canadian or U.S. passport is only about Canadian citizens who are also a U.S. citizen. So it does not inform Canadian PRs who are U.S. citizens that they can "travel," let alone board a plane flying to Canada, without a PR card or PR TD. Indeed, this particular IRCC webpage states "Canadian permanent residents need a valid permanent resident card or permanent resident travel document," without saying just what a PR card or PR TD is needed for.

Again, this is information, generalized information, NOT a statement of the rules; it is information that states IRCC's interpretation of how the rules are applied, what effect they have, stated in a manner to explain to travelers what they need. But it is incomplete (as generalizations are). Perhaps deliberately so, giving PRs information enabling them to travel to Canada by any means. Meanwhile, nonetheless, most PRs outside of Canada will in fact need either a PR card or a PR TD in order to board a flight to Canada. But not all.

That is, there are exceptions to the statement that a PR needs a PR card or a PR TD to return to Canada. These are NOT exceptions to the rules.

Which brings up navigating IRCC information.
Hard to say who phrases things more clumsily, IRCC or me. Both of us could do better. That said, in regards to saying IRCC could do better in particular, in many respects this is not at all simple given the complexity of the law, regulations, rules adopted pursuant to the law and regulations, and the extent to which so much varies subject to interacting conditions and contingencies. (Again, will link some resources few will be interested in enough to wade into.)

So, some key observations about understanding what IRCC publishes:
-- generally, a definitive statement should be interpreted to mean just what it says, and​
-- it is risky to interpret a definitive statement to mean anything other than what it literally says, BUT
-- no matter how definitive a statement is, it is also risky to entirely rely on a literal interpretation of it in isolation​
-- context matters, and in some contexts, context dictates​

In many contexts it is imperative to read and understand particular IRCC information in conjunction with other, related information provided by IRCC. Sometimes on the same webpage, but many times it helps to compare and contrast IRCC information on other webpages.

If the precise rule (usually meaning multiple rules understood in the context of multiple statutes and regulations) is known AND correctly understood, that really helps. Reading and understanding the primary sources, however, tends to be more complicated and difficult, not to mention tedious, than figuring out what IRCC's information means. There is a reason why lawyers make the big bucks. For almost any provision of law, there is NO ONE precise rule; rather, there are all sorts of cross-referenced conditions, caveats, nuances, and exceptions, not to mention terms used with particular meaning differing from general usage, and navigating these sources can very often tend to be like being stuck in a Kafkaesque maze while blindfolded.

Meanwhile, albeit rife with flaws, IRCC makes a concerted effort to give us information which explains what we need to know about how things work, based on the rules (which in turn are based on the governing law and regulations). Rather imperfectly, unfortunately, as it goes.

Which leads this back to what PRs need in particular, including what some PRs might not need . . . to be continued . . .
 

dpenabill

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. . . a valid U.S. passport satisfies the entry requirement, . . . for dual citizens as well as American-Canadians. What happens when/if the agent `thinks' that because the person is also a PR of Canada, they need the PR Card as well?
Not sure why or in what circumstances an airline agent might recognize a traveler presenting a U.S. passport is a Canadian PR, let alone then "think" the traveler must present a valid PR card or PR TD. But generally airline personnel enter the traveler's U.S. passport information into the CBSA/IAPI system (such as by swiping), which should then generate a "board" message. No issue. If the system is down, the agent should be screening travel documents based on the published list provided to commercial carriers, and readily recognize the traveler presenting a U.S. passport has a requisite document showing authorization to enter Canada for purposes of boarding a flight to Canada.

Again, there is NO rule requiring PRs present a valid PR card or PR TD to board a flight to Canada. But like all other travelers they must present one of the listed documents showing they have authorization to enter Canada. Most PRs do not have any documents on the list other than a PR card or PR TD; no valid visa in their passport; no eTA for a visa-exempt passport.

There is plenty of confusion about this otherwise. That said, I am not sure to what extent airline personnel might be confused, since they are following fairly standardized procedures, and again what matters is that the traveler have one of the travel documents that are listed as acceptable, as showing authorization to enter Canada sufficient for the purpose of allowing a traveler to board a flight to Canada.

The confusion seems largely derived from IRCC online information that includes erroneous statements like "Permanent residents of Canada need a permanent resident card to re-enter Canada," which is here , and which is not true in just about any sense, and somewhat more accurate but not entirely true online statements at the IRCC webpage titled "Travelling outside of Canada as a permanent resident," which is here, where it states "If you’re travelling in a commercial vehicle, you need a valid PR card to return to Canada." Which it promptly says, not all that consistently with the assertion a valid PR card is needed, "If you’re outside Canada and don’t have a valid PR card, you need a permanent resident travel document (PRTD) to return to Canada." NOT entirely true either if you can travel via the U.S. Also NOT true for PRs who are U.S. citizens with a valid U.S. passport who can actually fly directly to Canada. Which is partially but not fully acknowledged in the last sentence on that webpage: "If you’re travelling in a private vehicle, you can use your PR card or other documents to return to Canada."

Likewise in the IRCC webpage linked by @armoured, where it states (much like it is similarly stated in several other IRCC information webpages, the particular language varying some), that Canadian PRs need a valid PR card or PR TD to return to Canada. Again, not necessarily so, as we well know. But for most PRs this is true, and for all PRs it works. The PR who follows this guidance need not worry that they will be denied entry at a PoE. They need not worry that an airline will deny boarding based on the failure to present a proper document sufficient to show authorization to enter Canada for the purpose of boarding a flight to Canada (with the caveat there are other potential reasons why an airline might deny boarding to a particular traveler).

BUT, again, it is NOT the rule that a Canadian PR must have a valid PR card or PR TD to return to Canada, or even to board a flight to Canada. Documents on the list work, ONLY documents on the list. Documents not on the list will not work. For most PRs, the only documents on the list they will have is either a PR card or PR TD.

Moreover, the rule does not apply to travelers personally, not directly, but to the commercial carrier. That is, it is the commercial carrier who is prohibited from boarding passengers that have not presented an appropriate document as prescribed. (That said, yes, the effect is much the same as if the rule applied directly to PRs. Absent presentation of an appropriate document, the PR is denied boarding.)

Authorization to enter versus permission to enter . . .

Part of the confusion is also rooted in IRCC's effort to explain things in a way that is not technical, so some of the information is in reference to "travel" to Canada, or what is needed to "return" to Canada, with many references to what is needed to "enter" Canada, even though for purposes of who can board a flight to Canada, the rules are specifically about what particular documents show the traveler has "authorization to enter" Canada.

Authorization to enter and permission to enter are two very different, distinct things. Authorization to enter Canada does NOT guarantee permission to enter Canada. What suffices to show authorization to enter Canada can depend on the purpose. A visa-exempt passport is sufficient for the purpose of getting permission to enter Canada at the PoE (subject to CBSA discretion), but NOT sufficient for the purpose of boarding a flight to Canada.

A traveler who does not have a document showing they have authorization to enter Canada will (ordinarily) be denied boarding a flight to Canada. This applies to any traveler lacking a requisite document showing authorization to enter Canada, even if they are a Canadian (either a PR or a citizen) with a right of return and right of entry. In contrast, lacking documents to show authorization to enter Canada does not preclude Canadians (either PRs or citizens) from actually entering Canada. And there are nuances, again, a visa-exempt passport is sufficient to show authorization to enter Canada for purposes of getting permission to enter at the PoE, but not sufficient to show authorization to enter Canada for purposes of boarding a flight to Canada unless the traveler also has eTA.

Since I struggle in phrasing these things (all too obviously in this discussion, sorry), I am not one to suggest how IRCC could better communicate the essential elements of this. But no special literary skills needed to see that IRCC has been using words about what is needed in regards to returning to Canada and entering Canada in a confusing manner (perhaps even misleading in some instances), and there must be some way they can more clearly illuminate that not all PRs are created equal . . . (sorry about that snarky aside, but that truth warrants admitting, any pretense otherwise exposed) . . . that is, there must be some way IRCC can acknowledge, if not illuminate, the variability in how these things apply to Canadian PRs.

Then along comes eTA . . . some history . . .

U.S. citizens are exempt from the eTA requirements applicable to visa-exempt passport holders generally (there are additional, limited exemptions). In particular, the passport carried by citizens of other visa-exempt countries is NOT sufficient to establish a traveler's authorization to enter Canada for purposes of boarding a flight to Canada. The visa-exempt traveler also needs eTA, which Canadian PRs are not eligible for. This is what in practice (in the way things practically go) distinguishes the PR with a U.S. passport compared to other visa-exempt passports.

And some history . . . eTA was a critical element in the implementation of automated decision-making in approving a boarding pass for flights to Canada. It took years longer than planned just to get that stage done. Previously, PRs with any visa-exempt passport could fly to Canada without a PR card or PR TD, which meant scores and scores of PRs who were way in breach of the RO (some who had not been in Canada for more than a decade or two) could nonetheless just board a flight to Canada, returning to Canada without a Residency Determination attendant a PR TD application.

In any event, with eTA it became generally true for the majority of PRs that either a valid PR card or PR TD was necessary to board a flight to Canada (although many of those from countries which are visa-exempt for Canada will also have more access to travel via the U.S. than those from countries which are not visa-exempt for Canada). Then IAPI more or less closed the lid. Americans excepted, in terms of the result, whether intended or compelled (there's a bully in the neighbourhood after all).


Some Resources:

CBSA Guide for Transporters
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/trans/guide-eng.html

Advance Passenger Information / Passenger Name Record Data -- Overview
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/security-securite/api_ipv-eng.html
(links here to tabs discussing how the data is used, another to information for air carriers in particular

Guidelines for commercial air carriers for the processing of prescribed traveller information
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/publications/dm-md/d2/d2-5-11-eng.html

Travel and identification documents for entering Canada (particularly documents to denote identity and citizenship)
https://www.cbsa-asfc.gc.ca/travel-voyage/td-dv-eng.html
 

armoured

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Not sure why or in what circumstances an airline agent might recognize a traveler presenting a U.S. passport is a Canadian PR, let alone then "think" the traveler must present a valid PR card or PR TD. But generally airline personnel enter the traveler's U.S. passport information into the CBSA/IAPI system (such as by swiping), which should then generate a "board" message. No issue.
I agree overall with this and your comments overall but think you've gone down some verbal/logical rabbitholes that actually don't clarify, or at least I got lost in the thickets of your text here (perhaps I just need more coffee). That is, I don't think we're disagreeing on much.

Yes, I agree the system SHOULD provide a board/no-board, and generally the airline personnel do not get involved with this otherwise. But there are significant and important scenarios for which clear and simple language from IRCC/CBSA is needed, i.e. in which we cannot just rely upon 'the system will tell you if you can board':
-this should be exceedingly obvious, but for people planning their travel: we NEED to know what is expected, most of us, before we book travel, so that we can obtain the necessary documents. (I mean, the govt clearly recognizes this as they do actually provide this information). It is NOT sufficient to say 'the boarding system when you're at the airport will confirm.'
-we have situations reported on this board - not infrequently - when airport personnel will refuse boarding (or at least question boarding) because they ask other questions or ... well, whatever. It happens. The particular one of the US citizen-Canadian PR may not be all that problematic, but we're aware this stuff can and does happen.
-another example: airline booking systems almost always limit the entry of information to just the passport info from ONE passport (as far as I know for all legs), and lots of people travel with more than one passport, and - for various reasons, some of which good - use their other passport to book travel. Meaning that they do have to provide that information at the airport to the staff there, who yes, should check using the system, but now time is an issue and they may start looking up that info.
[I'm sure there are other scenarios]

In all these cases, having the clear information from the government of Canada can help in resolving the issue. Including, yes, at the airport, showing them the simple and clear point that (in this case) US passport holders who are PRs do not require a PR card/PRTD to either enter or board the plane.

Again, there is NO rule requiring PRs present a valid PR card or PR TD to board a flight to Canada. But like all other travelers they must present one of the listed documents showing they have authorization to enter Canada. Most PRs do not have any documents on the list other than a PR card or PR TD; no valid visa in their passport; no eTA for a visa-exempt passport.
Okay, there is no rule requiring them to have the PR card or PRTD. But this phrasing leaves out the point that they CANNOT GET the other 'listed documents' because the government of Canada WILL NOT ISSUE them these other listed documents. (And in their phrasing - that is, the list - they do not include US passports, even though it is very much true).

The confusion seems largely derived from IRCC online information
Exactly and agree.

Authorization to enter versus permission to enter . . .
Authorization to enter and permission to enter are two very different, distinct things. Authorization to enter Canada does NOT guarantee permission to enter Canada. What suffices to show authorization to enter Canada can depend on the purpose. A visa-exempt passport is sufficient for the purpose of getting permission to enter Canada at the PoE (subject to CBSA discretion), but NOT sufficient for the purpose of boarding a flight to Canada.
Rank speculation on my part: I wonder if, apart from reluctance to use technical terms, they wish to avoid potential charter challenges on freedom-to-travel. The current (in my opinion) convoluted approach to (effectively) forcing PRs from some countries to use the PRTD-application route (which appears to be objectively far more strict) creates an opening for lawyers to challenge this as discriminatory on basis of nationality ... for individuals who are already 'Canadians' (albeit PRs and not citizens). That is, those nationalities that have visa-free access to the USA effectively get a lighter touch on RO compliance than those that don't.

I'm not saying this would be successful, nor have sufficient legal merit to win - but the government is also aware that there have been many charter challenges over the years that have been unexpectedly (to the government anyway) successful. Clever lawyers like a challenge. Obfuscation and non-answers can be a surprisingly effective shield - for a while. (On the other hand, perhaps there's no explanation needed for why a bureaucracy communicates poorly).

But no special literary skills needed to see that IRCC has been using words about what is needed in regards to returning to Canada and entering Canada in a confusing manner (perhaps even misleading in some instances), and there must be some way they can more clearly illuminate that not all PRs are created equal . . . (sorry about that snarky aside, but that truth warrants admitting, any pretense otherwise exposed) . . . that is, there must be some way IRCC can acknowledge, if not illuminate, the variability in how these things apply to Canadian PRs.
Yes, a thousand times yes.