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iSaidGoodDay

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Feb 3, 2023
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Kaneda
One must understand couple of things.

1. NOT getting invited is perfectly okay. Every country decides whom to take and whom not to take.

2. In "cost of citizenship", you are underestimating the tax generation potential as well. You overall tax potention is in 10s of millions if not more.

3. What CERTAINLY is Canada's fault is FUCKING UP immigration APPLICATION PROCESSING.
#2 - What I said about the cost of citizenship is to put perspective about what people are getting for so cheap. I was willing to go down the investment route (think $300k-500k) and would still have been happy despite people getting it for 2-3% of the cost. My point is, If there's no absolute promise by the govt for a PR, people whining for it makes no sense. Sure, they paid taxes - but think about these two cases and tell me if I am wrong:
- Students come for "studying" and they walk out with a degree. That's a promise that was met. Doesn't matter the tax you paid, it is your visa condition that states you'll leave. Anything on top is a "good to have".
- Work permit holders never leave with less money than they came in with.

Who is getting scammed? I think both assumed that a system with work for them no matter the socio-economic conditions. These are bets in real life. You know it, I know. Anyone in this FSW thread would know it. You can't detach yourself from reality and say "we deserve it", because there's no deserving till you are PR/citizen or did something outstanding.

#3 - I think there's a fine line between what defines a criminal conduct. It feels hyperbolic to say that an open point immigration system can be criminal. You are not even looking at people who don't get degrees without stuyding from sham colleges, paid for LMIAs, etc and criminally fooled IRCC. Just search this forum and you'll easily find cases who did it.

I understand that the system isn't perfect, but it isn't necessarily as bad or unfair as people say it is. I think people are unhappy that IRCC isn't bending to their will.
 
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Deleted member 1050918

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https://nationalpost.com/opinion/canada-new-immigrants-citizenship
FIRST READING: Canada is scaring away its new immigrants
With rising numbers of newcomers already planning to move out, many new immigrants aren't bothering to seek citizenship

As Canada ratchets up immigration to the highest levels in its history, surprising new figures from Statistics Canada are showing that nearly half of all recent immigrants are no longer bothering to seek Canadian citizenship.The numbers were publicized this week by the Institute for Canadian Citizenship. And according to the group’s CEO Daniel Bernhard, they may be a sign that the Canadian dream is no longer working out for newcomers.

“What’s changing is that people have decided that they’re less interested in being ‘Team Canada,’” Bernhard said in a statement, adding that the figures are a “wake up” call to the Canadian immigrant experience is treating new arrivals.

In 2021, of the permanent residents who had come to Canada within the last 10 years, just 45.7 per cent had become citizens. In 2001, that figure was 75.1 per cent.

It’s not the first time that evidence has emerged to show that new immigrants are not as enthralled with Canada as in prior decades.

A March Leger survey — also commissioned by the Institute for Canadian Citizenship — found that more than one fifth of recent immigrants were already making plans to leave. Among under-34 immigrants, in particular, 30 per cent said they were “likely” to leave Canada within the next two years.


As to why, newcomers are citing the same concerns with the country as native-born Canadians: Skyrocketing housing costs and diminishing access to government services such as health care.

In the Leger poll, even among immigrants who wanted to stay, their number one reservation was “high cost of living.”

In a bid to boost GDP, the Trudeau government has already raised Canada’s immigration intake to the highest levels in Canadian history, and is on track to bring in 500,000 newcomers annually by 2025. Absent any dramatic policy changes, this influx will likely worsen many of the issues that are already beginning to scare away new Canadians.

On Tuesday, CIBC CEO Victor Dodig warned that if Canada continued packing in immigrants without a viable plan to absorb them, it could spur an unprecedented “social crisis.”

“New Canadians want to establish a life here, they need a roof over their heads. We need to get that policy right and not wave the flag saying isn’t it great that everyone wants to come to Canada,” Dodig said at an event hosted by Canadian Club Toronto.

One other factor potentially driving down rates of immigrants seeking citizenship is that Canada’s immigrant stream is increasingly coming from countries that do not tolerate dual citizenship, thus prompting many newcomers to remain permanent residents in perpetuity.

The chief examples are India and China. Indian nationals are required to surrender their Indian passport the moment they become Canadian citizens. Chinese prohibitions on dual citizenship were illustrated most glaringly in 2021, when the Beijing government tightened its control on Hong Kong by forcing 300,000 residents with joint Canadian citizenship to either leave or tear up their Canadian passport.

Both countries now represent a significant share of Canada’s current immigrant influx. As per 2021 figures, 18.6 per cent of recent Canadian immigrants reported India as their birthplace, while 8.9 per cent reported being born in China.


For context, just three per cent of recent immigrants were born in the United States.

In 2022, Canada officially welcomed 431,645 immigrants. Notably, the last time in Canadian history that immigration levels were this high — during the settling of the prairies in the years preceding the First World War – it was also paired with surging levels of outmigration as many newcomers swiftly abandoned their new Canadian homesteads.

“A lot of people left; outmigration was as high as in-migration for a very, very long time,” Adele Perry, a researcher of Western Canadian history, told the National Post in 2012.
"Hurr durr stop complaining about Canada."

- People who can't understand the difference between criticizing and complaining
 
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GandiBaat

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#2 - What I said about the cost of citizenship is to put perspective about what people are getting for so cheap. I was willing to go down the investment route (think $300k-500k) and would still have been happy despite people getting it for 2-3% of the cost. My point is, If there's no absolute promise by the govt for a PR, people whining for it makes no sense. Sure, they paid taxes - but think about these two cases and tell me if I am wrong:
- Students come for "studying" and they walk out with a degree. That's a promise that was met. Doesn't matter the tax you paid, it is your visa condition that states you'll leave. Anything on top is a "good to have".
- Work permit holders never leave with less money than they came in with.
Oh well, it comes down to this: Pedantics of "Cost" vs "Value" vs "Monetary Cost".

Whats the value of water? Possibly infinite.
Whats the monetary cost of water? Mostly ... small. Because.... supply is decent, for now atleast.

Whats the value of citizenship of a first world country? Possibly a LOT.
Whats the monetary cost? Well, so long you are young, skilled and in reasonable health not very high. Australia, Canada, UK, Germany are all offering programs for PR with pathways to Citizenship.

So, you are paying with your youth, your skills and hence direct monetary cost is small.

Its similar to why cost search like google and its value. You pay by your metadata.
 

GandiBaat

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Who is getting scammed? I think both assumed that a system with work for them no matter the socio-economic conditions. These are bets in real life. You know it, I know. Anyone in this FSW thread would know it. You can't detach yourself from reality and say "we deserve it", because there's no deserving till you are PR/citizen or did something outstanding.
Any one who is applying and their application is delayed beyond reasonable processing time and worse getting cancelled because of change of policy is getting scammed.

Canada OWES you to process your application on time the moment they took money. Its not like oil exploration that it should be a "bet in life". Its like buying a bunch of apples from supermarket. If your supermarket gives you apples after 3 year you pay for them when they promised a weeks delivery, you will say that they scammed you.

Remember, I am talking about PROCESSING of application and NOT the entire endevor of moving to Canada. That can be a bet. But if processing of application is a bet then its a scam. Pure Scam.

Visa processing is NO more a "bet in life" than buying an apple. You pay the fee, you get your file processed. Its results may be but NOT the processing itself.
 
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GandiBaat

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Old Medical
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VISA ISSUED...
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LANDED..........
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I understand that the system isn't perfect, but it isn't necessarily as bad or unfair as people say it is. I think people are unhappy that IRCC isn't bending to their will.
The system is PURE EVIL AND SCAM! Its no better than a swindler who takes your money and never gives you the wares. Its thiefery and it goes unpunished because thieves make the law, thieves run the court and theives appoint the judges.

Anyone who takes your money and does not keeps their promise is a thief, scam artist and a scoundrel. Plain and simple. Those who steal taxes are punished by being jailed. Those who delay paying taxes are made to pay penalities. Why then Canada should be treated any different? Its simply because they are a soverign and there are no courts to punish someone like minister of immigration, refugee and citizenship. Its plain and simple.
 

iSaidGoodDay

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Feb 3, 2023
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Oh well, it comes down to this: Pedantics of "Cost" vs "Value" vs "Monetary Cost".

Whats the value of water? Possibly infinite.
Whats the monetary cost of water? Mostly ... small. Because.... supply is decent, for now atleast.

Whats the value of citizenship of a first world country? Possibly a LOT.
Whats the monetary cost? Well, so long you are young, skilled and in reasonable health not very high. Australia, Canada, UK, Germany are all offering programs for PR with pathways to Citizenship.

So, you are paying with your youth, your skills and hence direct monetary cost is small.

Its similar to why cost search like google and its value. You pay by your metadata.
I'm simply trying to understand the other side here. Maybe I'm privileged and I don't see something very obvious. But so far, I don't see a case here.

People are assuming that their own perceived value is the actual value. I think in a fairly transparent CRS system+with open data on draw dates inconsistency there's a lot of wishful thinking that leads to wrong expectations. When everything is so open a mature person shouldn't assume everything. That's where I am unable to understand the other side.

I've seen people call the immigration minister, PM, etc all sorts of names on twitter - I can't support people who do that in a right mind. I am not even able to see what frustrates them? Does landing on a TRV entitles them to stay permanently? These things are fundamentally wrong.

People have to define the core pillars/themes of their case. Saying stuff like "I paid taxes" is not a case. I worked in EU, US and other places where I paid way more taxes and I never said it. I never met anyone else who said it either.

The other side has to help me (and many others like me) understand better to empathize. We want success for all and happy to support people. But how do you support without reasoning?
 

iSaidGoodDay

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Feb 3, 2023
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The system is PURE EVIL AND SCAM! Its no better than a swindler who takes your money and never gives you the wares. Its thiefery and it goes unpunished because thieves make the law, thieves run the court and theives appoint the judges.

Anyone who takes your money and does not keeps their promise is a thief, scam artist and a scoundrel. Plain and simple. Those who steal taxes are punished by being jailed. Those who delay paying taxes are made to pay penalities. Why then Canada should be treated any different? Its simply because they are a soverign and there are no courts to punish someone like minister of immigration, refugee and citizenship. Its plain and simple.
Okay, a lot of emotions here I see. Let's make it more objective. Are you saying that the application processing fees is a scam? In what context is this being said? Is it in context to:
1. Student visa applications
2. LMIA
3. Work permits
4. PR applications
5. or, all

Because that's easy to understand :)
 

Impatient Dankaroo

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Jan 10, 2020
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Why are you guys arguing about this? If someone is not happy in Canada they should move somewhere else. A ton of people move to and from Canada every day. If you find a better opportunity elsewhere just go there.
some people on this forum really need a chill pill. I guess people expect Canada to be some sort of heaven on earth
Yes, Canada overmarketed their immigration process
Yes Canada has alot of issues

But they are doing it in their interest, they don't really care about people like you or I. The government of canada isn't an altruistic entity, it has its own national interests

But we still come because the deal they offer is better than most around the world. The day that is no longer the case, people will stop immigrating

At the end of the day you chose to immigrate here because you chose or couldn't qualify for another country, so stop crying about it
 

Impatient Dankaroo

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Beautiful of canadian citizenship: if you are career focused or money focused you can immigrate to US easily, many positions these days are advertised to both US and Canada.

If you are more focused on family and secondary education, canada is way better. 12 months paid mat leave does not exist in us

For someone like myself with a poor passport, I'll be able to travel to many countries without hassle for vacation and trips
 
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Deleted member 1083629

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"Hurr durr stop complaining about Canada."

- People who can't understand the difference between criticizing and complaining
Don't waste your breath, mate. Most of people here won't be able to move anywhere, other than Canada. I stopped attending this forum since Monday; really don't care about proving anything to others. I know what is the best for me and my family; I will work on that. You are correct about lack of culture in Canada; smoking weed is literally their culture. My sibling already left CA; moved to Italy. Most of my friends and former colleagues got their passports and left within a year. That's all Canada is about right now.

People like us look at CA as a temp stop; unfortunately, that's how government ended up transforming this country. Proving it to people here is a waste of time. They will keep arguing about how much the USA is worse and etc. I mean look at their "pro" arguments; "clean air", "clean roads". That's it.

You do you.
 
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Deleted member 1083629

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I mean, you're part of this group of people as well
Sure. If that makes you sleep better at night, then yes.

Just so you know; I had an offer from NL for Uber (Amsterdam office). I made a decision to move to Canada because I paid the first fee installment. However, if that makes you feel better, then yes, Canada is my only option.
 

Impatient Dankaroo

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Sure. If that makes you sleep better at night, then yes.

Just so you know; I had an offer from NL for Uber (Amsterdam office). I made a decision to move to Canada because I paid the first fee installment. However, if that makes you feel better, then yes, Canada is my only option.
So why didn't you go? Is that fee installment that significant to affect choosing between CAN and NL?

I had option to Master's in US as well, I opted for Canada (questionable) but I made my decision I don't cry about it