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Refugee status cessation and PRs applying for citizenship

ytyt

Newbie
Aug 8, 2022
6
8
Can I ask a related question - you refer to it as an "Adult" travel document; does this mean that you received refugee status as a minor, or something else?
no, not a minor.
travel document for refugee is call Adult Travel Document not refugee travel document...
this kind of document is issued for refugee under a UN refugee convention( 1950's)
all adult travel document issued under this convention by participating countries
looks the same... light blue with 2 strips.
you can google adult travel document and locate the application form...passport canada.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,438
3,183
. . . but our stressful situation is not comfortable sometimes.
I realize that. And I try to help lower the stress level in scenarios like yours where the risk of negative action is likely very low, by repeatedly couching the negatives with assurances of the low risk.

It's a delicate balance. It is an even more delicate balance for those who have traveled to the home country, for whom the risk of cessation investigation is significantly higher, and if they traveled often, or stayed for a significant period of time, the risk of CBSA following through with cessation proceedings hangs over them.

In particular I also recognize that for many with protected person status the rule itself imposes a severe hardship. For many there are compelling reasons to visit the home country (such as a parent nearing death), and in addition to having Canadian PR status allowing them to withdraw and return to Canada, many could otherwise balance the risks involved to more or less travel to the home country briefly and take precautions so they can do so in relative safety, again knowing they can readily leave and return to Canada, and they can do this with zero intention of reavailing themselves of home country protection. Many do and do not encounter cessation proceedings. It is very difficult to predict who will encounter cessation enforcement issues. We just know that the biggest trigger of increased risk is home country travel, and for those who do this, the risk increases with the frequency or duration of such trips.

But the rules themselves do not support let alone favour flexibility. The typical defense is that to the extent the PR-refugee has done acts indicating reavailment, they can offer evidence to document they had no intent to reavail themselves of home country protection or that they did not "voluntarily" reavail themselves of home country protection. Relying on this is just outright very risky.

It is in regards to the latter that some, who were a minor still at the time a passport for them was obtained, have the defense that a parent or guardian made that decision, so it was not their voluntary decision to obtain the passport, not their intention to reavail.

Which brings up @armoured asking about getting status as a minor.

Can I ask a related question - you refer to it as an "Adult" travel document; does this mean that you received refugee status as a minor, or something else?
And . . .

travel document for refugee is call Adult Travel Document not refugee travel document...
I doubt the label makes much difference, and since there is a different travel document issued depending on whether the individual is less than or older than 16, and the application forms themselves refer, respectively, to "Adult Travel Document Application" (which is form PPTC 190), and "Child Travel Document Application" (which is form PPTC 192), I fully trust that the respective Travel Documents themselves are likewise labeled.

However, for those searching the IRCC website for information about obtaining the Travel Document available to refugees, protected persons, and stateless persons, that information is generally easier found looking for information about a "Refugee Travel Document" . . . a lot of IRCC's information (most of it so far as I have seen) refers to it as a "Refugee Travel Document."

This seems part of a pattern of IRCC's mix of information, sometimes using particular terms for specific things, more or less the technical term, other times using more general usage language, and sometimes it not being clear which is which.

Overall IRCC does not make it easy for refugees to find information about traveling outside Canada. There is no reference or link, none at all, to information about travel outside Canada on the IRCC web page for "How Canada's refugee system works" or at IRCC's general "Refugees and asylum" web page

Among IRCC web pages referring to it as a "Refugee Travel Document" is the general information page for making the application, which is here -- https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-passports/travel-documents-non-canadians.html (with the link for how to apply for a "Refugee Travel Document" going to the pdf for the "Adult Travel Document" application)
and IRCC's glossary of terms, here https://www.canada.ca/en/services/immigration-citizenship/helpcentre/glossary.html#member_of_the_convention_refugees_abroad_class which defines "Refugee Travel Document" as "A document for people in Canada with protected-person status to use for travel outside Canada."

Also see, for example the FAQ question and answer:
Question: I am a refugee and I need to travel outside Canada. What documents do I need to travel?
Answer: You need to get a Refugee Travel Document from Passport Canada. It is recognized in all countries as a valid travel document. However, you cannot use it to travel to the country that you are a citizen of or the country of claimed persecution.​

The FAQ response expands on this, but it also specifically states:
"If you are a:​
- Convention refugee, or
- person in need of protection,​
you will need a Refugee Travel Document.​

But things can and do get complicated. When I started this topic, for example, agents in the CIC Help Centre (and more than a few attorneys and many forum participants) were still advising PR-refugees they should obtain a home country passport before applying for citizenship, despite that doing so creates the presumption of reavailment, and despite the fact that the change in law which made this a risk for a PR had been in effect for more than two years (the change in law applying cessation to refugees even after they became a PR took effect in December 2012).

And throughout all this time, it is still readily apparent that many refugees and protected persons are not well advised about these things when they get status in Canada. That was the crux of the Safi case (Canada v. Safi, 2022 FC 1125, https://canlii.ca/t/jr4nw ); Safi was unaware of the consequences for using the home country passport or traveling to the home country, erroneously believing this based on believing "his status had changed from being a refugee to a permanent resident" (his status had changed, becoming a PR, but such PRs are still refugees and subject to cessation provisions).

I fully get and have much empathy for the anxiety, frustration, and many times outright fear, and all too often the confusion, many refugees must deal with in their efforts to establish a life in Canada. And I wish I was better at clarifying and explaining things more clearly, in more simple terms. I'd gladly pass on the baton for this particular subject. For now, though, I worry that many will still fall into a trap about this issue, especially since notwithstanding a lot of the political-reassurances-rhetoric about playing nice with immigrants coming from the front runner for the Conservative Party leadership, who very well could become Canada's next Prime Minister, that is Pierre Poillievre, he is very much from the Harper-camp and perhaps significantly more to right, which relative to immigration means policies which favour some immigrants but which tend to be severe if not harsh toward many others, especially refugees. I worry that some have been lulled into relying on the typically more lenient enforcement pattern under the Liberals and will be sadly confronted with difficulties when a Conservative government takes the helm.
 
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Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
I realize that. And I try to help lower the stress level in scenarios like yours where the risk of negative action is likely very low, by repeatedly couching the negatives with assurances of the low risk.

It's a delicate balance. It is an even more delicate balance for those who have traveled to the home country, for whom the risk of cessation investigation is significantly higher, and if they traveled often, or stayed for a significant period of time, the risk of CBSA following through with cessation proceedings hangs over them.

In particular I also recognize that for many with protected person status the rule itself imposes a severe hardship. For many there are compelling reasons to visit the home country (such as a parent nearing death), and in addition to having Canadian PR status allowing them to withdraw and return to Canada, many could otherwise balance the risks involved to more or less travel to the home country briefly and take precautions so they can do so in relative safety, again knowing they can readily leave and return to Canada, and they can do this with zero intention of reavailing themselves of home country protection. Many do and do not encounter cessation proceedings. It is very difficult to predict who will encounter cessation enforcement issues. We just know that the biggest trigger of increased risk is home country travel, and for those who do this, the risk increases with the frequency or duration of such trips.

But the rules themselves do not support let alone favour flexibility. The typical defense is that to the extent the PR-refugee has done acts indicating reavailment, they can offer evidence to document they had no intent to reavail themselves of home country protection or that they did not "voluntarily" reavail themselves of home country protection. Relying on this is just outright very risky.

It is in regards to the latter that some, who were a minor still at the time a passport for them was obtained, have the defense that a parent or guardian made that decision, so it was not their voluntary decision to obtain the passport, not their intention to reavail.

Which brings up @armoured asking about getting status as a minor.



And . . .



I doubt the label makes much difference, and since there is a different travel document issued depending on whether the individual is less than or older than 16, and the application forms themselves refer, respectively, to "Adult Travel Document Application" (which is form PPTC 190), and "Child Travel Document Application" (which is form PPTC 192), I fully trust that the respective Travel Documents themselves are likewise labeled.

However, for those searching the IRCC website for information about obtaining the Travel Document available to refugees, protected persons, and stateless persons, that information is generally easier found looking for information about a "Refugee Travel Document" . . . a lot of IRCC's information (most of it so far as I have seen) refers to it as a "Refugee Travel Document."

This seems part of a pattern of IRCC's mix of information, sometimes using particular terms for specific things, more or less the technical term, other times using more general usage language, and sometimes it not being clear which is which.

Overall IRCC does not make it easy for refugees to find information about traveling outside Canada. There is no reference or link, none at all, to information about travel outside Canada on the IRCC web page for "How Canada's refugee system works" or at IRCC's general "Refugees and asylum" web page

Among IRCC web pages referring to it as a "Refugee Travel Document" is the general information page for making the application, which is here -- https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-passports/travel-documents-non-canadians.html (with the link for how to apply for a "Refugee Travel Document" going to the pdf for the "Adult Travel Document" application)
and IRCC's glossary of terms, here https://www.canada.ca/en/services/immigration-citizenship/helpcentre/glossary.html#member_of_the_convention_refugees_abroad_class which defines "Refugee Travel Document" as "A document for people in Canada with protected-person status to use for travel outside Canada."

Also see, for example the FAQ question and answer:
Question: I am a refugee and I need to travel outside Canada. What documents do I need to travel?
Answer: You need to get a Refugee Travel Document from Passport Canada. It is recognized in all countries as a valid travel document. However, you cannot use it to travel to the country that you are a citizen of or the country of claimed persecution.​

The FAQ response expands on this, but it also specifically states:
"If you are a:​
- Convention refugee, or​
- person in need of protection,​
you will need a Refugee Travel Document.​

But things can and do get complicated. When I started this topic, for example, agents in the CIC Help Centre (and more than a few attorneys and many forum participants) were still advising PR-refugees they should obtain a home country passport before applying for citizenship, despite that doing so creates the presumption of reavailment, and despite the fact that the change in law which made this a risk for a PR had been in effect for more than two years (the change in law applying cessation to refugees even after they became a PR took effect in December 2012).

And throughout all this time, it is still readily apparent that many refugees and protected persons are not well advised about these things when they get status in Canada. That was the crux of the Safi case (Canada v. Safi, 2022 FC 1125, https://canlii.ca/t/jr4nw ); Safi was unaware of the consequences for using the home country passport or traveling to the home country, erroneously believing this based on believing "his status had changed from being a refugee to a permanent resident" (his status had changed, becoming a PR, but such PRs are still refugees and subject to cessation provisions).

I fully get and have much empathy for the anxiety, frustration, and many times outright fear, and all too often the confusion, many refugees must deal with in their efforts to establish a life in Canada. And I wish I was better at clarifying and explaining things more clearly, in more simple terms. I'd gladly pass on the baton for this particular subject. For now, though, I worry that many will still fall into a trap about this issue, especially since notwithstanding a lot of the political-reassurances-rhetoric about playing nice with immigrants coming from the front runner for the Conservative Party leadership, who very well could become Canada's next Prime Minister, that is Pierre Poillievre, he is very much from the Harper-camp and perhaps significantly more to right, which relative to immigration means policies which favour some immigrants but which tend to be severe if not harsh toward many others, especially refugees. I worry that some have been lulled into relying on the typically more lenient enforcement pattern under the Liberals and will be sadly confronted with difficulties when a Conservative government takes the helm.
I do agree with you!
Now one question:
- Send renew of PR card May 2022
- AOR July 2022
- Decision Made August 2022
- Never IRCC asked for further documents never disturbed
- 70 days in total
- question; Decision is positive/ negative?
Thanks
 

ytyt

Newbie
Aug 8, 2022
6
8
I do agree with you!
Now one question:
- Send renew of PR card May 2022
- AOR July 2022
- Decision Made August 2022
- Never IRCC asked for further documents never disturbed
- 70 days in total
- question; Decision is positive/ negative?
Thanks
Relax already, as dpenabill said your cessation risk is very low.
please note that i renewed my home passport and you didn't do that...
meaning my cessation risk was higher than yours and i got my citizenship.

From what i read in other forum, decision made usually means positive.
however, on my citizenship application process, it indicated: closed.
Reason: citizenship granted...welcome to canadian family.

please check your application status. If everything indicate completed other than
citizenship ceremony...you should get invitation for ceremony soon.

i hope everything works out fine.
take care.
 
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ytyt

Newbie
Aug 8, 2022
6
8
I realize that. And I try to help lower the stress level in scenarios like yours where the risk of negative action is likely very low, by repeatedly couching the negatives with assurances of the low risk.

It's a delicate balance. It is an even more delicate balance for those who have traveled to the home country, for whom the risk of cessation investigation is significantly higher, and if they traveled often, or stayed for a significant period of time, the risk of CBSA following through with cessation proceedings hangs over them.

In particular I also recognize that for many with protected person status the rule itself imposes a severe hardship. For many there are compelling reasons to visit the home country (such as a parent nearing death), and in addition to having Canadian PR status allowing them to withdraw and return to Canada, many could otherwise balance the risks involved to more or less travel to the home country briefly and take precautions so they can do so in relative safety, again knowing they can readily leave and return to Canada, and they can do this with zero intention of reavailing themselves of home country protection. Many do and do not encounter cessation proceedings. It is very difficult to predict who will encounter cessation enforcement issues. We just know that the biggest trigger of increased risk is home country travel, and for those who do this, the risk increases with the frequency or duration of such trips.

But the rules themselves do not support let alone favour flexibility. The typical defense is that to the extent the PR-refugee has done acts indicating reavailment, they can offer evidence to document they had no intent to reavail themselves of home country protection or that they did not "voluntarily" reavail themselves of home country protection. Relying on this is just outright very risky.

It is in regards to the latter that some, who were a minor still at the time a passport for them was obtained, have the defense that a parent or guardian made that decision, so it was not their voluntary decision to obtain the passport, not their intention to reavail.

Which brings up @armoured asking about getting status as a minor.



And . . .



I doubt the label makes much difference, and since there is a different travel document issued depending on whether the individual is less than or older than 16, and the application forms themselves refer, respectively, to "Adult Travel Document Application" (which is form PPTC 190), and "Child Travel Document Application" (which is form PPTC 192), I fully trust that the respective Travel Documents themselves are likewise labeled.

However, for those searching the IRCC website for information about obtaining the Travel Document available to refugees, protected persons, and stateless persons, that information is generally easier found looking for information about a "Refugee Travel Document" . . . a lot of IRCC's information (most of it so far as I have seen) refers to it as a "Refugee Travel Document."

This seems part of a pattern of IRCC's mix of information, sometimes using particular terms for specific things, more or less the technical term, other times using more general usage language, and sometimes it not being clear which is which.

Overall IRCC does not make it easy for refugees to find information about traveling outside Canada. There is no reference or link, none at all, to information about travel outside Canada on the IRCC web page for "How Canada's refugee system works" or at IRCC's general "Refugees and asylum" web page

Among IRCC web pages referring to it as a "Refugee Travel Document" is the general information page for making the application, which is here -- https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-passports/travel-documents-non-canadians.html (with the link for how to apply for a "Refugee Travel Document" going to the pdf for the "Adult Travel Document" application)
and IRCC's glossary of terms, here https://www.canada.ca/en/services/immigration-citizenship/helpcentre/glossary.html#member_of_the_convention_refugees_abroad_class which defines "Refugee Travel Document" as "A document for people in Canada with protected-person status to use for travel outside Canada."

Also see, for example the FAQ question and answer:
Question: I am a refugee and I need to travel outside Canada. What documents do I need to travel?
Answer: You need to get a Refugee Travel Document from Passport Canada. It is recognized in all countries as a valid travel document. However, you cannot use it to travel to the country that you are a citizen of or the country of claimed persecution.​

The FAQ response expands on this, but it also specifically states:
"If you are a:​
- Convention refugee, or​
- person in need of protection,​
you will need a Refugee Travel Document.​

But things can and do get complicated. When I started this topic, for example, agents in the CIC Help Centre (and more than a few attorneys and many forum participants) were still advising PR-refugees they should obtain a home country passport before applying for citizenship, despite that doing so creates the presumption of reavailment, and despite the fact that the change in law which made this a risk for a PR had been in effect for more than two years (the change in law applying cessation to refugees even after they became a PR took effect in December 2012).

And throughout all this time, it is still readily apparent that many refugees and protected persons are not well advised about these things when they get status in Canada. That was the crux of the Safi case (Canada v. Safi, 2022 FC 1125, https://canlii.ca/t/jr4nw ); Safi was unaware of the consequences for using the home country passport or traveling to the home country, erroneously believing this based on believing "his status had changed from being a refugee to a permanent resident" (his status had changed, becoming a PR, but such PRs are still refugees and subject to cessation provisions).

I fully get and have much empathy for the anxiety, frustration, and many times outright fear, and all too often the confusion, many refugees must deal with in their efforts to establish a life in Canada. And I wish I was better at clarifying and explaining things more clearly, in more simple terms. I'd gladly pass on the baton for this particular subject. For now, though, I worry that many will still fall into a trap about this issue, especially since notwithstanding a lot of the political-reassurances-rhetoric about playing nice with immigrants coming from the front runner for the Conservative Party leadership, who very well could become Canada's next Prime Minister, that is Pierre Poillievre, he is very much from the Harper-camp and perhaps significantly more to right, which relative to immigration means policies which favour some immigrants but which tend to be severe if not harsh toward many others, especially refugees. I worry that some have been lulled into relying on the typically more lenient enforcement pattern under the Liberals and will be sadly confronted with difficulties when a Conservative government takes the helm.
as you said "And I wish I was better at clarifying and explaining things more clearly, in more simple terms. I'd gladly pass on the baton for this particular subject'... DON'T sell yourself short.
your research and analysis are informative.
also it is only intellectually honest to point out risk and caution ie don't renew your home passport and don't travel to your
home country.

keep up your great work and thanks
 
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Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
Relax already, as dpenabill said your cessation risk is very low.
please note that i renewed my home passport and you didn't do that...
meaning my cessation risk was higher than yours and i got my citizenship.

From what i read in other forum, decision made usually means positive.
however, on my citizenship application process, it indicated: closed.
Reason: citizenship granted...welcome to canadian family.

please check your application status. If everything indicate completed other than
citizenship ceremony...you should get invitation for ceremony soon.

i hope everything works out fine.
take care.
Do u know that this forum is better than a lawyer? The experience of people here- hundred times more effective.
Thanks
 

Sagekobby

Star Member
Jun 25, 2017
132
57
Hi Folks,
I applied for refugee status but got denied. I went through all the process of removal interview and humanitarian process. Through the process my wife sponsorship was pending. I was granted PR in 2018. When I got my PR, I received a letter that since I have become a PR my humanitarian case is thus closed. The question is since I was denied refugee status, will travelling to my home country be a problem for citizenship application? I went to CBSA with my Co- PR and got my ceased passport back. I ask the agent what is next for me and she said and I QUOTE "that is all".
 
Last edited:

Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
Hi Folks,
I applied for refugee status but got denied. I went through all the process of removal interview and humanitarian process. Through the process my wife sponsorship was pending. I was granted PR in 2018. When I got my PR, I received a letter that since I have become a PR my humanitarian case is thus closed. The question is since I was denied refugee status, will travelling to my home country be a problem for citizenship application? I went to CBSA with my Co- PR and got my ceased passport back. I ask the agent what is next for me and she said and I QUOTE "that is all".
The language of Immigration sometimes is difficult to be understood! You not more refugee - your PR status is realized by your wife sponsorship. You can travel, no limits where u go. Congratulations
 

Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
I realize that. And I try to help lower the stress level in scenarios like yours where the risk of negative action is likely very low, by repeatedly couching the negatives with assurances of the low risk.

It's a delicate balance. It is an even more delicate balance for those who have traveled to the home country, for whom the risk of cessation investigation is significantly higher, and if they traveled often, or stayed for a significant period of time, the risk of CBSA following through with cessation proceedings hangs over them.

In particular I also recognize that for many with protected person status the rule itself imposes a severe hardship. For many there are compelling reasons to visit the home country (such as a parent nearing death), and in addition to having Canadian PR status allowing them to withdraw and return to Canada, many could otherwise balance the risks involved to more or less travel to the home country briefly and take precautions so they can do so in relative safety, again knowing they can readily leave and return to Canada, and they can do this with zero intention of reavailing themselves of home country protection. Many do and do not encounter cessation proceedings. It is very difficult to predict who will encounter cessation enforcement issues. We just know that the biggest trigger of increased risk is home country travel, and for those who do this, the risk increases with the frequency or duration of such trips.

But the rules themselves do not support let alone favour flexibility. The typical defense is that to the extent the PR-refugee has done acts indicating reavailment, they can offer evidence to document they had no intent to reavail themselves of home country protection or that they did not "voluntarily" reavail themselves of home country protection. Relying on this is just outright very risky.

It is in regards to the latter that some, who were a minor still at the time a passport for them was obtained, have the defense that a parent or guardian made that decision, so it was not their voluntary decision to obtain the passport, not their intention to reavail.

Which brings up @armoured asking about getting status as a minor.



And . . .



I doubt the label makes much difference, and since there is a different travel document issued depending on whether the individual is less than or older than 16, and the application forms themselves refer, respectively, to "Adult Travel Document Application" (which is form PPTC 190), and "Child Travel Document Application" (which is form PPTC 192), I fully trust that the respective Travel Documents themselves are likewise labeled.

However, for those searching the IRCC website for information about obtaining the Travel Document available to refugees, protected persons, and stateless persons, that information is generally easier found looking for information about a "Refugee Travel Document" . . . a lot of IRCC's information (most of it so far as I have seen) refers to it as a "Refugee Travel Document."

This seems part of a pattern of IRCC's mix of information, sometimes using particular terms for specific things, more or less the technical term, other times using more general usage language, and sometimes it not being clear which is which.

Overall IRCC does not make it easy for refugees to find information about traveling outside Canada. There is no reference or link, none at all, to information about travel outside Canada on the IRCC web page for "How Canada's refugee system works" or at IRCC's general "Refugees and asylum" web page

Among IRCC web pages referring to it as a "Refugee Travel Document" is the general information page for making the application, which is here -- https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/canadian-passports/travel-documents-non-canadians.html (with the link for how to apply for a "Refugee Travel Document" going to the pdf for the "Adult Travel Document" application)
and IRCC's glossary of terms, here https://www.canada.ca/en/services/immigration-citizenship/helpcentre/glossary.html#member_of_the_convention_refugees_abroad_class which defines "Refugee Travel Document" as "A document for people in Canada with protected-person status to use for travel outside Canada."

Also see, for example the FAQ question and answer:
Question: I am a refugee and I need to travel outside Canada. What documents do I need to travel?
Answer: You need to get a Refugee Travel Document from Passport Canada. It is recognized in all countries as a valid travel document. However, you cannot use it to travel to the country that you are a citizen of or the country of claimed persecution.​

The FAQ response expands on this, but it also specifically states:
"If you are a:​
- Convention refugee, or​
- person in need of protection,​
you will need a Refugee Travel Document.​

But things can and do get complicated. When I started this topic, for example, agents in the CIC Help Centre (and more than a few attorneys and many forum participants) were still advising PR-refugees they should obtain a home country passport before applying for citizenship, despite that doing so creates the presumption of reavailment, and despite the fact that the change in law which made this a risk for a PR had been in effect for more than two years (the change in law applying cessation to refugees even after they became a PR took effect in December 2012).

And throughout all this time, it is still readily apparent that many refugees and protected persons are not well advised about these things when they get status in Canada. That was the crux of the Safi case (Canada v. Safi, 2022 FC 1125, https://canlii.ca/t/jr4nw ); Safi was unaware of the consequences for using the home country passport or traveling to the home country, erroneously believing this based on believing "his status had changed from being a refugee to a permanent resident" (his status had changed, becoming a PR, but such PRs are still refugees and subject to cessation provisions).

I fully get and have much empathy for the anxiety, frustration, and many times outright fear, and all too often the confusion, many refugees must deal with in their efforts to establish a life in Canada. And I wish I was better at clarifying and explaining things more clearly, in more simple terms. I'd gladly pass on the baton for this particular subject. For now, though, I worry that many will still fall into a trap about this issue, especially since notwithstanding a lot of the political-reassurances-rhetoric about playing nice with immigrants coming from the front runner for the Conservative Party leadership, who very well could become Canada's next Prime Minister, that is Pierre Poillievre, he is very much from the Harper-camp and perhaps significantly more to right, which relative to immigration means policies which favour some immigrants but which tend to be severe if not harsh toward many others, especially refugees. I worry that some have been lulled into relying on the typically more lenient enforcement pattern under the Liberals and will be sadly confronted with difficulties when a Conservative government takes the helm.
Dear friend!
I should share my experience with you & all forum:
Date: August 4, 2022 , after 67 days , my PR Card was renewed successfully,
NO complaints from IRCC ,
NO asking questions about my home passport that I used in third countries.
The new PR card arrived by mail , and expires after 5 years (August 2027).
This means that using your not expired home passport is not a “ crime “
This means that my citizenship application is not under risk
I am an alive proof !
I didn’t gone back to my country
I didn’t renew my home passport
I used my home passport to travel to third countries
What do you think about that, my friend?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,438
3,183
Dear friend!
I should share my experience with you & all forum:
Date: August 4, 2022 , after 67 days , my PR Card was renewed successfully,
NO complaints from IRCC ,
NO asking questions about my home passport that I used in third countries.
The new PR card arrived by mail , and expires after 5 years (August 2027).
This means that using your not expired home passport is not a “ crime “
This means that my citizenship application is not under risk
I am an alive proof !
I didn’t gone back to my country
I didn’t renew my home passport
I used my home passport to travel to third countries
What do you think about that, my friend?
If all you are saying is that a PR-refugee who the government gave back their home country passport, and they used it for some travel but not to the home country, should not worry much about cessation enforcement, OK. That is clearly based on a misunderstanding and is inherently misleading, but given the low risks of encountering cessation enforcement for this, it is indeed fair to say no need to worry.

That is, the reasoning is wrong, but the conclusion is fair.

If you are suggesting that a PR-refugee who the government has given them back their home country passport should feel free to travel abroad, to a "third country," using that passport, please STOP. The only for sure safe approach for any protected person subject to cessation provisions is to NOT engage in any actions that constitute or evidence reavailment of home country protection.

As oft stated and emphasized, the rules are simple:

Acquiring protection from the home country is evidence of reavailment and evidence it is voluntary. Any international travel using a home country passport constitutes doing so under the diplomatic protection of the home country, and thus is evidence of reavailment and moreover is evidence it is voluntary.
Reavailment is grounds for cessation of protected person status. Cessation of protected person status automatically terminates PR status.​

The risk of enforcement action is a different calculation. Many, for whatever reason, may elect to take the risk, especially the fairly small risk involved in what you did. That's a personal decision.

It is wrong, however, to suggest there is no risk.

To the extent you are suggesting there is no risk, because what you have done has not caused you any problem, your logic is deeply flawed. In particular, the "I did it, and it was OK, therefore doing that is OK," reasoning is flawed (despite how common it is in forums like this, where there are no restrictions on being, well, stupid), and when it is about doing something contrary to the rules, any suggestion that means the rule is not the rule is outright fallacious.

All an individual experience illustrates is that sometimes it may go OK, because at least once (as in your case) it went OK. That is NO reassurance it will go OK for anyone else. It absolutely does NOT illustrate what the rule is. It absolutely does NOT indicate what will always happen. I bet on the roulette wheel once, on number 55, and the ball landed on number 55 (I won a cake at a church bazaar). Spoiler alert: not a good idea to bet the farm that a spin of the roulette wheel will end with the ball landing on number 55. Even though it did for me.

Your experience only illustrates that is how it might go for someone else. No how it will likely go, let alone how it will go for sure.

Based on a lot of other information, as corroborated by anecdotal reports, and much more so on what we see in actual cases officially reported in IAD and Federal Court decisions, it is fair to infer that the risk of cessation for doing what you did is indeed very low. But, nonetheless, before any protected person decides to travel abroad using a home country passport, they should understand the rule, regarding which again there is NO doubt: Any international travel using a home country passport constitutes doing so under the diplomatic protection of the home country, and thus is evidence of reavailment.

You also say:

This means that using your not expired home passport is not a “ crime “

This is a rather curious expression and seems to suggest you do not understand what reavailment and cessation are about.

No one has ever suggested that using a home country passport is a crime. Reavailment itself is not a crime. Indeed, there is no wrong in doing that at all.

Loss of status (cessation of status) for reavailment is NOT a penalty. It is not punishment for committing a wrong. There is no hint that a protected person does anything "wrong" if they return home. It's a choice they can make.

It is kind of like quitting a job.

No wrong, let alone crime implicated. Just a change in status.
-- Was as employee of XRCtechnocrats, but no more.​
-- Was a person protected by the Canadian government, but no more, back in the protection of the home country.​

Main difference is reavailment is like quitting a job for which there is very little chance of getting hired again if that is not what you really meant to do. Well, there is that difference and a potentially big difference in the collateral consequences. There's more at stake than giving up the company car.
 
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Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
If all you are saying is that a PR-refugee who the government gave back their home country passport, and they used it for some travel but not to the home country, should not worry much about cessation enforcement, OK. That is clearly based on a misunderstanding and is inherently misleading, but given the low risks of encountering cessation enforcement for this, it is indeed fair to say no need to worry.

That is, the reasoning is wrong, but the conclusion is fair.

If you are suggesting that a PR-refugee who the government has given them back their home country passport should feel free to travel abroad, to a "third country," using that passport, please STOP. The only for sure safe approach for any protected person subject to cessation provisions is to NOT engage in any actions that constitute or evidence reavailment of home country protection.

As oft stated and emphasized, the rules are simple:

Acquiring protection from the home country is evidence of reavailment and evidence it is voluntary. Any international travel using a home country passport constitutes doing so under the diplomatic protection of the home country, and thus is evidence of reavailment and moreover is evidence it is voluntary.
Reavailment is grounds for cessation of protected person status. Cessation of protected person status automatically terminates PR status.​

The risk of enforcement action is a different calculation. Many, for whatever reason, may elect to take the risk, especially the fairly small risk involved in what you did. That's a personal decision.

It is wrong, however, to suggest there is no risk.

To the extent you are suggesting there is no risk, because what you have done has not caused you any problem, your logic is deeply flawed. In particular, the "I did it, and it was OK, therefore doing that is OK," reasoning is flawed (despite how common it is in forums like this, where there are no restrictions on being, well, stupid), and when it is about doing something contrary to the rules, any suggestion that means the rule is not the rule is outright fallacious.

All an individual experience illustrates is that sometimes it may go OK, because at least once (as in your case) it went OK. That is NO reassurance it will go OK for anyone else. It absolutely does NOT illustrate what the rule is. It absolutely does NOT indicate what will always happen. I bet on the roulette wheel once, on number 55, and the ball landed on number 55 (I won a cake at a church bazaar). Spoiler alert: not a good idea to bet the farm that a spin of the roulette wheel will end with the ball landing on number 55. Even though it did for me.

Your experience only illustrates that is how it might go for someone else. No how it will likely go, let alone how it will go for sure.

Based on a lot of other information, as corroborated by anecdotal reports, and much more so on what we see in actual cases officially reported in IAD and Federal Court decisions, it is fair to infer that the risk of cessation for doing what you did is indeed very low. But, nonetheless, before any protected person decides to travel abroad using a home country passport, they should understand the rule, regarding which again there is NO doubt: Any international travel using a home country passport constitutes doing so under the diplomatic protection of the home country, and thus is evidence of reavailment.

You also say:

This means that using your not expired home passport is not a “ crime “

This is a rather curious expression and seems to suggest you do not understand what reavailment and cessation are about.

No one has ever suggested that using a home country passport is a crime. Reavailment itself is not a crime. Indeed, there is no wrong in doing that at all.

Loss of status (cessation of status) for reavailment is NOT a penalty. It is not punishment for committing a wrong. There is no hint that a protected person does anything "wrong" if they return home. It's a choice they can make.

It is kind of like quitting a job.

No wrong, let alone crime implicated. Just a change in status.
-- Was as employee of XRCtechnocrats, but no more.​
-- Was a person protected by the Canadian government, but no more, back in the protection of the home country.​

Main difference is reavailment is like quitting a job for which there is very little chance of getting hired again if that is not what you really meant to do. Well, there is that difference and a potentially big difference in the collateral consequences. There's more at stake than giving up the company car.
Thanks for your eloquence speech!
 

Mpvzla

Star Member
Dec 5, 2017
76
70
Category........
CEC
Visa Office......
Ottawa
AOR Received.
17-10-2017
Hi Everyone, checking for my husband. He became a Canadian Citizen almost 7 years ago. Prior to this, he was a PR-refugee. Being a canadian citizen now, will he have any issues if he gets a passport from our birth country and travels there? It’s been almost 20 years since he left the country and never renewed the passport. I understand this is an issue as a PR, but unsure if you’re a citizen.
 

Toronto1971

Hero Member
Dec 23, 2021
296
161
Hi Everyone, checking for my husband. He became a Canadian Citizen almost 7 years ago. Prior to this, he was a PR-refugee. Being a canadian citizen now, will he have any issues if he gets a passport from our birth country and travels there? It’s been almost 20 years since he left the country and never renewed the passport. I understand this is an issue as a PR, but unsure if you’re a citizen.
Canadian Constitution permits both of citizenships, so no worries, go to your country & apply for your country passport.
 
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