How does CBSA know how many days you were out of Canada?

[Ponga]

Again, a thing that I believe was covered elsewhere in this thread (but at least another) - when you make a request to one agency (eg IRCC or CBSA), the request may or may not include information that the agency can get access to but that it does not 'own' - meaning usually information created/owned by some other agency.

Upshot: you may not get all records of entries and exits from CBSA - just not certain.

So yes, you need to keep your own history.

Agreed...especially your very last sentence.

The CBSA agent/officer that I spoke with yesterday said that they do NOT record exits from Canada, he said "That's only recorded when you go through Customs." Huh?

While I do understand that the information is not all-inclusive, at least between agencies, I would expect CBSA's records to be the most accurate, since that is the agency that is, in essence, `the doorman/bouncer' for those seeking entry into Canada. I suppose CBP is the other doorman when exiting Canada, but their records may be even less accurate.

 

[Ponga]

Regarding CBSA and those with an expired PRC and U.S (or possibly other visa-exempt) passport.

From enf27
***
Section 5 Departmental Policy:
The IRPA does not require permanent residents in Canada to hold a PR card nor to have one when they present themselves at a port of entry. Accordingly, officers at ports of entry may allow entry into Canada of permanent residents whose status can be established through a variety of other means. However, it is highly recommended that applicants present a PR card (or travel document) to prevent significant delays. As per paragraph A31(2)(a), persons who present a valid PR card at a port of entry are presumed to have this status, unless an officer determines otherwise.
***

Now, I had always thought that a POE was a land border, in terms of legal speak regarding IRPA, IRCC, CBSA, et al, but if it is also International airports in Canada, is this not a contradiction to what is found (further down) in Section 7.3?

[Per the Google]
What is considered port of entry Canada?
When you arrive in Canada, you will arrive at a Port of Entry. A Port of Entry (POE) is a place which is selected as an entry point into Canada by the Government of Canada. Usually the Port of Entry that you come through will be the first airport or land crossing that you stop at in Canada.

***
Section 5.2
While the PR card is not a mandatory document within Canada, it is necessary should a permanent resident travel outside Canada using a commercial transportation company. In the absence of evidence to the contrary, a permanent resident without a PR card outside Canada is deemed to be a foreign national. Transportation companies that screen persons boarding Canada - bound carriers require all passengers to be in possession of one of the documents prescribed in section R259:
259. For the purposes of subsection 148(1) of the Act, the following documents that a person requires under the Act to enter Canada are prescribed:
(a) a travel document referred to in subsection 31(3) of the Act;
(b) refugee travel papers issued by the Minister;
(c) a document referred to in subsection 50(1) or 52(1);
(d) a temporary travel document referred to in section 151;
(e) a visa referred to in section 6 or subsection 7(1); and
(f) a permanent resident card.
***
That would likely include a passport from a visa-exempt country, correct? Isn't the objective to convince the carrier, if needed, that the traveler is visiting Canada?

Versus:

Section 7.3:
The PR card is the official proof of permanent resident status of Canada. Permanent residents must show their PR card when re-entering Canada on a commercial carrier, such as an airplane, a boat, a train or a bus. Permanent residents are required to show proof of status before boarding a plane. Permanent residents who do not have a PR card will need to apply for a Permanent Resident Travel Document
(PRTD) before returning to Canada by air mode. Without proof of permanent resident status, the CBSA’s Interactive Advance Passenger Information system will impede the permanent resident’s ability to board the airplane to Canada. Permanent residents abroad without a PR
card are presumed not to have that status pursuant to paragraph A31(2)(b). These individuals may be issued a permanent resident travel
document to facilitate their return to Canada if an officer is satisfied that they comply with the residency obligation or if humanitarian and compassionate considerations apply.
***
Does this not contradict what is found in Section 5 Departmental Policy? Should that not, at the very least, be revised to specify that a land border POE may not`require' a valid PRC.

Since a U.S passport would clearly suffice for entry into Canada (aside from otherwise being deemed inadmissible at inspection), would that not still allow a PR with an expired PRC to enter/re-enter Canada?

Wouldn't that also apply to a person in possession of an expired PRC, especially if they can show (when re-entering Canada) that they recently departed from Canada...which is why they are now returning? Better than showing up without anything to show that they did have a valid card, before COVID-19, now COVID-2x, made us ALL home bound.

I realize that I'm lamenting, ad nauseam, and appreciate the `space' to do so. I found these forums to be calming when we were going through the initial PR application. I learned a lot; I helped a lot; I made more than a few mistakes, which only helped me to improve when I felt compelled to offer more help. I, now, thank you for entertaining me as I toil with `Should we stay or should we go' in terms of a highly anticipated trip to Mexico in a few months (direct flights, no stopping the U.S.).

-- End of Rant--

 

[armoured]

The CBSA agent/officer that I spoke with yesterday said that they do NOT record exits from Canada, he said "That's only recorded when you go through Customs." Huh?

While I do understand that the information is not all-inclusive, at least between agencies, I would expect CBSA's records to be the most accurate, since that is the agency that is, in essence, `the doorman/bouncer' for those seeking entry into Canada. I suppose CBP is the other doorman when exiting Canada, but their records may be even less accurate.

So far as we can tell, that statement is true - they do not record exits, there is no 'exit check' on leaving Canada. Hence the 'exit' data CBSA has access to from CBP is really 'entrance to USA [from Canadian departure point]' info. And what I mentioned - not clear if (for ATIP purposes) CBSA 'has' that information, or only 'borrows' that info (and may not be entitled to share it).

There's a separate issue about 'exit info' that's now being collected for departures by air to other destinations - and last I heard, it is not clear which Canadian government agency 'owns' that info (again, at least for ATIP purposes). I seem to recall a mention of Ministry of Transportation (more likely some agency under MoT) as the one that deals with airlines (and passenger manifestos etc).

 

[Ponga]

So far as we can tell, that statement is true - they do not record exits, there is no 'exit check' on leaving Canada. Hence the 'exit' data CBSA has access to from CBP is really 'entrance to USA [from Canadian departure point]' info. And what I mentioned - not clear if (for ATIP purposes) CBSA 'has' that information, or only 'borrows' that info (and may not be entitled to share it).

There's a separate issue about 'exit info' that's now being collected for departures by air to other destinations - and last I heard, it is not clear which Canadian government agency 'owns' that info (again, at least for ATIP purposes). I seem to recall a mention of Ministry of Transportation (more likely some agency under MoT) as the one that deals with airlines (and passenger manifestos etc).

FWIW, which may or may not be accurate:
{source https://www.maxcanvisa.com/blog/2022/02/02/entry-and-exit-records-will-leave-you-nowhere-to-hide/]

Posted on 02/02/2022


The Beyond the Border Action Plan was put into place about a decade ago by DHS in the U.S. and Canada’s CBSA and IRCC. The Action Plan now has a new joint initiative – the Entry/Exit program – which means your movements between Canada and the U.S. – by air or land – will be almost instantly recorded by CBSA and then accessed through GCMS (Global Case Management System) used by IRCC as well as in data bases used by U.S. immigration authorities. In other words, your record of landing in the U.S. will also be considered your exit information from Canada, and vice versa.


This has important implications for several immigration programs.

• Your Permanent Residence Status can now be monitored almost in real time. Immigration authorities will be easily able to confirm if you are maintaining your physical presence requirements and if not, you are at much greater risk of losing your PR status and having to leave Canada.

***

Now, if this IS true, it would make things much easier for those of us in this situation!

 

[armoured]

Now, I had always thought that a POE was a land border, in terms of legal speak regarding IRPA, IRCC, CBSA, et al, but if it is also International airports in Canada, is this not a contradiction to what is found (further down) in Section 7.3?

I cannot parse your entire text with the quotes from various things out of context. But I think you misapprehend some basics that I can best explain this way:

-a Port of Entry is any CBSA-controlled place where travellers enter into Canada, including land crossings and intl airports.
-Travellers who get to a PoE will be examined and let in based on their situation (incl status in Canada such as PR and docs).
-For PRs: that means if they can get to that PoE, AND they can establish who they are and their status (to the satisfaction of the officer) SHALL be admitted. (That's in the law - 'shall' in legislative terms should be read as 'must', it is not optional).
-Of course, government recommends valid docs to do so. But in practice, they have these things called 'computers'. If they can match your identification (whatever it may be) to your PR/citizenship record, and have no who-is-who doubt, they SHALL admit you. (An example of how this might be done with NO Canadian documentation would be the UCI#).

The catch is in the first part, travel-wise: you have to get to the port of entry. That basically means 'get to the USA first' is one good alternative (can then walk across).

The remaining practical alternative for most is: you must be allowed to board a plane (or other commercial carrier, which I guess is meant to include trains, some ships, buses perhaps, I don't know).

And the key thing there is: the carriers must comply with rules from Canadian government, and those rules tell them what documents they can accept. They do NOT make any judgments about whether a person IS a PR or a citizen - only whether the person has one of a few documents that SHOWS they are a PR or citizen (eg PR card, Canadian passport).

If they are not a PR or citizen: they need a visa or an ETA (if from a visa waiver country). The thing is: Canada won't issue ETAs to PRs who are visa waiver passport holders.

Now the final 'but': the USA is not a visa waiver country (there's some separate treaty or agreement with USA, I think). USA passport holders don't need ETAs. So basically the common carriers are told 'for USA passport holders, don't bug 'em, they don't need PR cards if PRs.'

 

[armoured]

The Beyond the Border Action Plan was put into place about a decade ago by DHS in the U.S. and Canada’s CBSA and IRCC. The Action Plan now has a new joint initiative – the Entry/Exit program – which means your movements between Canada and the U.S. – by air or land – will be almost instantly recorded by CBSA and then accessed through GCMS (Global Case Management System) used by IRCC as well as in data bases used by U.S. immigration authorities. In other words, your record of landing in the U.S. will also be considered your exit information from Canada, and vice versa.
...
Now, if this IS true, it would make things much easier for those of us in this situation!

This does not contradict what I've said above: I keep repeating that they DO have access to this info (or can get it, I don't know in real life how instantaneous it is*), just that an ATIP request may not get you the info that is held by DHS.

The upshot being: IRCC probably DOES have very good records of your entries and exits (not perfect but very good). And I do not know whether your plan to get ATIP records first to check is worth the time and trouble, because it may not have all of the info - esp exits - that you'd actually need.

So: credit card records.

*Star here because I think there have been various legal kerfuffles in Canada about access to and maintaining databases about people in Canada, hence 'instantaneous' may be considerably more bureaucratic. [Supreme Court of Canada's privacy concerns for 'people in Canada' is also a LOT broader in terms of protections than just citizens and PRs, which makes database stuff even harder for govt].

 

[Ponga]

This does not contradict what I've said above: I keep repeating that they DO have access to this info (or can get it, I don't know in real life how instantaneous it is*), just that an ATIP request may not get you the info that is held by DHS.

The upshot being: IRCC probably DOES have very good records of your entries and exits (not perfect but very good). And I do not know whether your plan to get ATIP records first to check is worth the time and trouble, because it may not have all of the info - esp exits - that you'd actually need.

So: credit card records.

*Star here because I think there have been various legal kerfuffles in Canada about access to and maintaining databases about people in Canada, hence 'instantaneous' may be considerably more bureaucratic. [Supreme Court of Canada's privacy concerns for 'people in Canada' is also a LOT broader in terms of protections than just citizens and PRs, which makes database stuff even harder for govt].

Again, I thank you for your continued tolerance.

Two things:
1. Without the ATIP travel history report, I would have little to go on in terms of providing even best guess dates for the (pre-Twilight Zone) trips across a land border. We live about 20 minutes away from such a POE and used to take quite a few day trips (likely 2 or 3 per quarter in good weather), with the occasional overnight stay. Because our travel did not require a commercial carrier, I never recorded that info [insert that old `hindsight'-ism here].

2. It would have been rare for me to use a credit card in the U.S. while traveling just for a partial day. I do have statements that I will comb through.

 

[Ponga]

The catch is in the first part, travel-wise: you have to get to the port of entry. That basically means 'get to the USA first' is one good alternative (can then walk across).

...

Now the final 'but': the USA is not a visa waiver country (there's some separate treaty or agreement with USA, I think). USA passport holders don't need ETAs. So basically the common carriers are told 'for USA passport holders, don't bug 'em, they don't need PR cards if PRs.'

But that brings up an interesting point. Even when a passenger deplanes in Canada, they have NOT yet presented themself at a POE...even though they have `landed', no pun intended, in Canada...they have not yet `entered' Canada. In this case, the airplane would in fact get the traveler to the POE. Makes me think of those `zones' in International airports that are sort of a state of Limbo (think of the Tom Hanks film).

 

[armoured]

Again, I thank you for your continued tolerance.

Two things:
1. Without the ATIP travel history report, I would have little to go on in terms of providing even best guess dates for the (pre-Twilight Zone) trips across a land border. We live about 20 minutes away from such a POE and used to take quite a few day trips (likely 2 or 3 per quarter in good weather), with the occasional overnight stay. Because our travel did not require a commercial carrier, I never recorded that info [insert that old `hindsight'-ism here].

2. It would have been rare for me to use a credit card in the U.S. while traveling just for a partial day. I do have statements that I will comb through.

Well, you can certainly try ATIP, and of course there is some mechanism to get entry/exit data from USA, but I don't know about that.

It is true that with ATIP from CBSA you should at least get entries to Canada, and if the question marks are all or almost all day trips, that's better than not having any info at all. Your call as to how to proceed though - haven't done the cbsa atip myself.

 

[Ponga]

To be clear, a Canadian Permanent Resident will NOT and cannot enter Canada as a "visitor," regardless which passport the PR carries or presents to border officials. EVEN IF the PIL (Primary Inspection Line) officer waives a U.S. citizen and Canadian PR through more or less "as a visitor," based on presentation of a U.S. passport, that is in error or at least not recognizing the American traveler is also a Canadian PR, and it does not have any effect on the status the PR has upon entering Canada. PRs are Canadians, not Foreign Nationals, and ONLY FNs can enter Canada as a visitor.

---


If there is a problem, it's more likely to arise when a PIL officer scans the passport and sees the traveler is a Canadian. Even then, odds are it is no big deal, none at all, and the PIL officer may even still just waive the traveler, the PR through (which again would not be as a "visitor," but as a PR). At worst, typically, there might be a question or two to clarify the traveler's status. The manner of border questioning varies widely, deliberately so (largely to avoid predictability and reduce the extent to which travelers can rely on prepared scripts), but the gist of such exchanges is readily apparent and not complicated. Which brings this to one of the last observations by @armoured . . . regarding credibility . . . or more to the point, as @armoured not so delicately framed things (albeit in reference to reporting travel history): "it's worse if they think you're a liar." Yep. Even then, though, the worst from the PIL exchange is a referral to Secondary and plenty of opportunity in Secondary to be open and honest. For PRs it is not a gotcha-game . . . the extent of leniency in the enforcement of the rules governing PRs might seem rather remarkable if one overlooks that Canadians generally trust Canadians, and border officials like IRCC officials recognize PRs to be Canadians.

---

FIN!

Anticipating that this PRC renewal will take many months to resolve, not even commencing anytime soon since I haven't determined what my travel history really is, I should abandon my travel plans for later this year. Further, it doesn't appear possible to use the ArriveCAN app with an expired PR Card...even with a U.S. passport, which is moot since you have confirmed that I cannot re-enter as a `visitor', which makes sense. I can't speculate as to if/when the ArriveCAN app will no longer be required, so...

After confirming this with a different CBSA agent, who was perhaps not as friendly as the one yesterday, I was advised NOT to travel until I receive the renewed PRC. Even with a U.S. Passport, I would still need a visa (new PRC) to re-enter Canada via a commercial airline (even though their policy is to allow boarding of U.S. passport holders, so long as the passport expiry date is > 6 months from the completion of the flight). Seems odd that the PRC is being called a `visa', when I thought it was a status document, not in any way connected to a travel `visa'.
The PIL and Secondary officers would likely not be amused and would cause both me and my spouse a potentially bad ending to what would have been a wonderful holiday. Ug!

 

[YVR123]

Again, I thank you for your continued tolerance.

Two things:
1. Without the ATIP travel history report, I would have little to go on in terms of providing even best guess dates for the (pre-Twilight Zone) trips across a land border. We live about 20 minutes away from such a POE and used to take quite a few day trips (likely 2 or 3 per quarter in good weather), with the occasional overnight stay. Because our travel did not require a commercial carrier, I never recorded that info [insert that old `hindsight'-ism here].

2. It would have been rare for me to use a credit card in the U.S. while traveling just for a partial day. I do have statements that I will comb through.

Just to share what we did for PR card renewal. We went through emails and google map records (yes... day by day) and chat history and social media posts...
We used to live 30 min from the border and back then, we did late night gas run or package pickup. Sometimes more than once a week. And it's mixed with 1 or 2 days overnight trips as well (luckily that's a different border). So it took us a long time to retrack my husband's border crossing history.

 

[Ponga]

Just to share what we did for PR card renewal. We went through emails and google map records (yes... day by day) and chat history and social media posts...
We used to live 30 min from the border and back then, we did late night gas run or package pickup. Sometimes more than once a week. And it's mixed with 1 or 2 days overnight trips as well (luckily that's a different border). So it took us a long time to retrack my husband's border crossing history.

Great suggestion! Unfortunately it appears that I never enabled `Location Services' on my phone; I suspect that my spouse will say the same.
Yay!

 

[armoured]

Anticipating that this PRC renewal will take many months to resolve, not even commencing anytime soon since I haven't determined what my travel history really is, I should abandon my travel plans for later this year.

Your decision, and don't know how easy to cancel, etc., but it seems to me you're making decisions based on misinterpreting things and then broken telephone. (And get your PR renewal application in soon and maybe it will be moot).

To wit:

Further, it doesn't appear possible to use the ArriveCAN app with an expired PR Card...even with a U.S. passport, which is moot since you have confirmed that I cannot re-enter as a `visitor', which makes sense. I can't speculate as to if/when the ArriveCAN app will no longer be required, so...

I warn I do not know about how having an expired PR card interacts with the ArriveCan app etc, BUT:

-I believe you have misunderstood what was written above by others, as shown by the part I bolded, that you cannot 'enter' as a visitor.

ENTERING IS CROSSING THE ADMINISTRATIVE BORDER WHERE THE PASSPORT OFFICER STANDS.

PHYSICALLY ARRIVING BY PLANE IS A DIFFERENT THING. They are related but distinct.

In your case, it's fine to show the US passport to board and then 'enter' by stating you are a PR. (Indeed I believe you are expected to always state you are a PR at border)

We are saying that you can board a plane with US passport and no valid PR card (as a PR). Then when you arrive in Canada, you 'enter' by telling the passport officer clearly that you are a PR (and showing what documentation even expired that you have to show that you are a PR residing in Canada. Hint, application to renew would have just about everything needed).

Again, caveat about the ArriveCan app. But the ArriveCan app is (from what I can tell) mostly about determining eligibility to enter under covid rules. (I think there is a distinction there that I'm not going to try to explain).

After confirming this with a different CBSA agent, who was perhaps not as friendly as the one yesterday, I was advised NOT to travel until I receive the renewed PRC. Even with a U.S. Passport, I would still need a visa (new PRC) to re-enter Canada via a commercial airline (even though their policy is to allow boarding of U.S. passport holders, so long as the passport expiry date is > 6 months from the completion of the flight). Seems odd that the PRC is being called a `visa', when I thought it was a status document, not in any way connected to a travel `visa'.
The PIL and Secondary officers would likely not be amused and would cause both me and my spouse a potentially bad ending to what would have been a wonderful holiday. Ug!

Again, I think this is a complete hash - it sounds like a series of broken telphone misunderstandings but I wasnt there; believe what you like. I just don't think much in that para makes sense and wouldn't rely on it.

But again, you have to decide what to do and ultimately it's not me who will have to deal with any issues that arise.

 

[Ponga]

I warn I do not know about how having an expired PR card interacts with the ArriveCan app etc, BUT:

-I believe you have misunderstood what was written above by others, as shown by the part I bolded, that you cannot 'enter' as a visitor.

ENTERING IS CROSSING THE ADMINISTRATIVE BORDER WHERE THE PASSPORT OFFICER STANDS.

PHYSICALLY ARRIVING BY PLANE IS A DIFFERENT THING. They are related but distinct.

In your case, it's fine to show the US passport to board and then 'enter' by stating you are a PR. (Indeed I believe you are expected to always state you are a PR at border)

We are saying that you can board a plane with US passport and no valid PR card (as a PR). Then when you arrive in Canada, you 'enter' by telling the passport officer clearly that you are a PR (and showing what documentation even expired that you have to show that you are a PR residing in Canada. Hint, application to renew would have just about everything needed).

Normally I would echo this without hesitation, save for the story that scylla shared in this thread with her spouse being denied boarding with a U.S. passport. It was only because he was able to find his valid PRC (in his luggage, perhaps) that the airline allowed him to board. Clearly wrong, but since the airline (or worse yet the ticketing agent and/or gate agent) can certainly deny even a U.S. passport holder from boarding, if they fear that the U.S. traveler would be denied entry into Canada...I guess. After all, they are the `gate keeper' of those boarding the plane, right? Obviously this is likely a very rare case, but being stranded in Mexico would be less than pleasant.

Not really sure what you mean by saying "Hint, application to renew would have just about everything needed." I do plan to have my renewal application submitted...just as soon as I can determine my travel history. I think the easiest way is for my Canadian spouse to request entry/exit records from CBP for land crossings. I could then determine which of those trips included me, since I have never left Canada without my spouse.

 

[armoured]

Normally I would echo this without hesitation, save for the story that scylla shared in this thread with her spouse being denied boarding with a U.S. passport. It was only because he was able to find his valid PRC (in his luggage, perhaps) that the airline allowed him to board. Clearly wrong, but since the airline (or worse yet the ticketing agent and/or gate agent) can certainly deny even a U.S. passport holder from boarding, if they fear that the U.S. traveler would be denied entry into Canada...I guess. After all, they are the `gate keeper' of those boarding the plane, right?

From experience with bureaucracy and airlines in many countries: an 'almost denied' (per Scylla's recounting) is not the same as being denied. This would inevitably have gone through a few more layers of authority (and likely knowledge) before an actual denial. Yes, I'm explicitly saying that the probability the spouse would have been allowed to board on basis of US passport alone is fairly good - because in every organisation, the first line is by far not most knowledgeable (call centres and first line airline clerks are good examples) and sometimes believes things taht are outright wrong. (I was recently told by an elections call centre thingy in my province that there is only one voting location per electoral district - and repeated requests to check because on its face absurd were ignored.)

Again - I'm not saying it didn't happen. I'm saying the spouse just found the PR card before it became critical.

By the way you could also check with your own airline - more relevant than eg Korea several years ago.

Not really sure what you mean by saying "Hint, application to renew would have just about everything needed." I do plan to have my renewal application submitted...just as soon as I can determine my travel history.

I mean once you submit the PR renewal, keep a copy and travel with it - it would be darn good evidence that you are actually a PR.