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Woman Fights to Get Citizenship Back.

alphazip

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screech339 said:
The elimination of retention is applied retroactively to April 17, 1981. Retention rule is eliminated to anyone born on or after April 17, 1981, 28 years before the 2009 bill is enacted.
Actually, it was not eliminated retroactively, but rather on April 17, 2009 and going forward. However, it had the effect of eliminating the requirement for anyone who had not reached the age of 28 by that date (i.e., anyone born on or after April 17, 1981).

The requirement to register one's birth and the loss of citizenship associated with taking another citizenship were eliminated retroactively back to January 1, 1947.

So, a person born in Canada who (say) became a U.S. citizen in 1960 got his citizenship back. A person who failed to retain at age 28, did not. I would say that the person who took a foreign citizenship of his own accord was probably more aware that doing so would lead to loss of Canadian citizenship than a person living in Canada her entire life (minus two months).
 

screech339

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alphazip said:
Actually, it was not eliminated retroactively, but rather on April 17, 2009 and going forward. However, it had the effect of eliminating the requirement for anyone who had not reached the age of 28 by that date (i.e., anyone born on or after April 17, 1981).

The requirement to register one's birth and the loss of citizenship associated with taking another citizenship were eliminated retroactively back to January 1, 1947.

So, a person born in Canada who (say) became a U.S. citizen in 1960 got his citizenship back. A person who failed to retain at age 28, did not. I would say that the person who took a foreign citizenship of his own accord was probably more aware that doing so would lead to loss of Canadian citizenship than a person living in Canada her entire life (minus two months).
Logically it is applied retroactively to anyone born April 17, 1981. There would be no need to spell it out under the new rule. By listing a further retroactive further than April 17, 1981, would imply that those who lost citizenship by not failing to abide by the citizenship law (unintentional or not) ought to get their citizenship back. Basically you are telling them that their personal accountability no longer matters.
 

alphazip

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screech339 said:
Logically it is applied retroactively to anyone born April 17, 1981. There would be no need to spell it out under the new rule.
Speaking of logic, please explain how it is logical that a Canadian who knowingly took another citizenship (and thus lost his Canadian citizenship) gets his citizenship back, but a person who failed to retain (probably without knowing it was required) does not.
 

screech339

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alphazip said:
Speaking of logic, please explain how it is logical that a Canadian who knowingly took another citizenship (and thus lost his Canadian citizenship) gets his citizenship back, but a person who failed to retain (probably without knowing it was required) does not.
The difference is that the Canadians was forced to get rid of his/her citizenship because of a foreign law that dictates that he/she must get rid of own citizenship in order to obtain it. Foreign law doesn't apply to Canadian law.

Now as of 1977, Canadian law recognizes dual citizenship and gave back citizenship to those who lost it under the old law. But this law didn't rectify all those who still lost it under the new 1967 law (lost canadians). The 2009 law help rectified this issued.

The retention rule was meant as a mean to limit the passing of citizenship for generations. It doesn't stop it completely as they can easily return to Canada, retain citizenship and leave Canada. Pass on citizenship and repeat the whole procedure. The new 2009 completely remove their ability to pass on citizenship limitless. This makes the retention law redundant. Since those born abroad before 2009 can pass on citizenship to their children abroad, it is only fair that the retention rule still applies to limit passing on citizenship until 2009 law.
 

alphazip

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screech339 said:
The difference is that the Canadians was forced to get rid of his/her citizenship because of a foreign law that dictates that he/she must get rid of own citizenship in order to obtain it. Foreign law doesn't apply to Canadian law.

Now as of 1977, Canadian law recognizes dual citizenship and gave back citizenship to those who lost it under the old law. But this law didn't rectify all those who still lost it under the new 1967 law (lost canadians). The 2009 law help rectified this issued.
Huh? Canadians who became foreign citizens did not lose their Canadian citizenship by operation of foreign law; they lost Canadian citizenship under CANADIAN law. Not until 1977 did Canadian law allow for multiple citizenships.

The 1977 Citizenship Act did NOT give citizenship back to those who lost it under the old law. That was done by the 2009 law.

You still didn't explain why someone who knowingly gave up his citizenship by becoming (say) a U.S. citizen should get his citizenship back, but someone who unknowingly lost her citizenship at age 28 should not?
 

Leon

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I am sure that a lot of 2nd generation born abroad did not know that they had to apply to retain and nobody told them that. Personally I wouldn't have a problem if they said that 2nd generations who failed to apply to retain could get their citizenship back or in any case those of them who made a point of living in Canada could get it back, even if they did not know to apply to retain before their 28th birthday. However, immigration decided that this is not the case and so it is.
 

screech339

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alphazip said:
Huh? Canadians who became foreign citizens did not lose their Canadian citizenship by operation of foreign law; they lost Canadian citizenship under CANADIAN law. Not until 1977 did Canadian law allow for multiple citizenships.

The 1977 Citizenship Act did NOT give citizenship back to those who lost it under the old law. That was done by the 2009 law.

You still didn't explain why someone who knowingly gave up his citizenship by becoming (say) a U.S. citizen should get his citizenship back, but someone who unknowingly lost her citizenship at age 28 should not?
I think the law 2009 was introduced with stopping of generational passing of citizenship in mind. So giving back citizenship who knowingly gave it up has no effect on passing citizenship on to their children since the parents were not Canadians at the time of children's birth. Those born under the retention rule can still pass on citizenship depending on whether child was born prior April 17, 2009, even those who lost it under retention rule can still pass on citizenship to their children if the child was born while parent has legal Canadian citizenship at the time.
 

alphazip

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screech339 said:
So giving back citizenship who knowingly gave it up has no effect on passing citizenship on to their children since the parents were not Canadians at the time of children's birth.
I don't understand what you're saying. Of course giving back citizenship to someone who lost it had an effect on passing citizenship on to their children. Example: My Canadian-born father became a U.S. citizen in the 1950s, before my brother was born. Therefore, my father lost his Canadian citizenship and did not pass it on to my brother. In 2009, my father regained his citizenship and my brother became a Canadian citizen. (This didn't affect me, because I was already a Canadian citizen by making a delayed registration of birth abroad.)

So, one class of Canadians...those who knowingly gave up their citizenship, and their children...have been favoured over another...those who were born Canadian but failed, probably unintentionally, to retain their citizenship. Unfortunately for her, Bertha Funk is in the latter class.
 

screech339

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alphazip said:
I don't understand what you're saying. Of course giving back citizenship to someone who lost it had an effect on passing citizenship on to their children. Example: My Canadian-born father became a U.S. citizen in the 1950s, before my brother was born. Therefore, my father lost his Canadian citizenship and did not pass it on to my brother. In 2009, my father regained his citizenship and my brother became a Canadian citizen. (This didn't affect me, because I was already a Canadian citizen by making a delayed registration of birth abroad.)

So, one class of Canadians...those who knowingly gave up their citizenship, and their children...have been favoured over another...those who were born Canadian but failed, probably unintentionally, to retain their citizenship. Unfortunately for her, Bertha Funk is in the latter class.
Technically your brother wasn't suppose to get citizenship by descent through your father since he wasn't canadian at the time of his birth. Your father got it back per 2009. However your brother shouldn't have been able to to get citizenship since father wasn't Canadian at the time.

This may be one the few mistakes CIC made.
 

dpenabill

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Note: the facts matter. They usually do. And there are some unknown facts of much importance in this case.

As I said, and some others have at least somewhat concurred, my sense is that Bertha Funk's case will be resolved relatively easily and promptly.

But in looking at what we know, and considering what we do not know, my further guess is that this is not a complicated case and one way or another the government will respond positively, relatively promptly, whether she is granted citizenship (pursuant to Section 5(4) Ministerial discretion), or perhaps it may be appropriate for the government to simply recognize that she has retained her citizenship. The latter depends a bit on some unknown details, but this case might, possibly, be explained as a simple mistake . . . a mistake either by CIC back in 1980 or so, or by IRCC this year.

I hope a good Canadian lawyer has come forward to offer her some assistance.

In reading some further information, it is apparent that Bertha Funk has not had, at least as of the time she commenced her online petition and the Star and other media publicized her story, the assistance or even advice of competent legal counsel. Again, I hope a good lawyer has come forward to offer assistance.

In addition to avenues of recourse previously discussed, it may indeed be appropriate, even expeditious, to make an application to obtain leave for judicial review of IRCC's decision denying her a certificate of citizenship. The circumstances suggest, to me, that Bertha Funk's parents made some kind of application to CIC in the early 80s, resulting in all five children, as well as the parents, having Canadian citizenship, their citizenship either being granted or recognized. Bertha was, after all, issued a certificate of citizenship and subsequently, on two occasions, issued a Canadian passport.

Thus, it appears to me there is a fair likelihood the error in this case was in CIC or IRCC.

The unknown facts have to do with just what process was involved when Bertha's parents made the application leading to all five children (Bertha was the youngest) becoming citizens, or being recognized as citizens . . . but at least we do know that they were either granted or recognized as citizens. Including Bertha, since she was issued a certificate of citizenship, and subsequently twice issued passports.

At the very least, given whatever process was employed to have Bertha Funk's citizenship either granted or recognized, that should suffice to have met the requirement of Section 8 . . . and, if it did not, CIC should have given notice that it did not.

I do not know the history of Section 27 prior to 2002, but is safe to conclude that there was similar authorization to adopt regulations prescribing the manner in which and the place at which applications and registrations are to be made and notices are to be given . . .

. . . which of course would have to meet the requirements of fair process. Meaning, if the application made (apparently by Bertha's parents) which resulted in the grant or recognition of Bertha's citizenship did not suffice for her to obtain permanent citizenship, CIC should have given notice thereof in response to the application.

My guess is that IRCC failed to properly research its records when it rejected the application to issue a replacement citizenship certificate, or perhaps somewhere in migrating physical records to digital format, IRCC lost or overlooked that Bertha Funk was not simply deemed a citizen pursuant to her father's citizenship by descent (particularly since, given his own birth abroad before 1977, my sense is that he needed to affirmatively apply or register) but there was a formal process to assert or claim citizenship, resulting in a grant or recognition of Bertha's citizenship, which process should suffice to have met the requirements of former Section 8.



Apart from that, there is the proper notice issue:

alphazip said:
Dpenabill, I believe you asked to see the section of the Citizenship Act that deprived Bertha Funk of her citizenship. If so, it is here: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-29/section-8-20021231.html
Thank you alphazip for the link to Section 8 of the Citizenship Act which was applicable from December 31, 2002 to April 16, 2009. (This provision was repealed in 2008,the repeal apparently coming into force, however, April 17, 2009. Did not apply retroactively.)

That section, Section 8, was in Part II of the Citizenship Act prescribing the Loss of Citizenship. This is significant. Section 8 only applies if someone is indeed a citizen. It is, thus, a provision of law which prescribed taking away a person's rights.

It would be highly unusual indeed if the Canadian government could effectively take away a person's rights, those rights a person has by virtue of being a citizen, without notice, due process, or the right to a hearing; that is, as Section 7 in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms states, to not be deprived of one's rights "except in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice."

Perhaps Section 8 has never been challenged.

It was cited in the Frankowski decision (should link), and indeed this is the only decision I have found citing Section 8. ( discussing the Frankowski decision gets complicated but would mostly be a distraction; not really relevant because Frankowski was never a citizen even though Frankowski had the right to citizenship, if only his parents or later himself timely made the application -- it is one thing to deny a status never obtained versus taking away a person's rights as a citizen once the person is a citizen and living in Canada).

What may really matter, in terms of the Constitutional validity of Section 8, is the manner in which it is applied. (A statute may be challenged on its face, or as it is applied generally, or as it is applied in a particular situation.) While again I do not know the history of Section 27(1) prior to 2002, at the least between 2002 and January 14, 2008 (the date Bertha Funk's citizenship was stripped from her), the "application" referred to in former Section 8 was subject to the authority in Section 27(1) for the making of regulations to prescribe the manner in which and the place at which applications and registrations are to be made and notices are to be given.

Stripping a citizen of their citizenship is a big deal. It is about as big a deal as big deals go.

It seems utterly inconceivable that someone who has been issued a certificate of citizenship, and passports, and who has been living in Canada, could be stripped of their citizenship without being first given actual notice. Not implied notice, but actual notice.

The right to notice is one of the most important principles of fundamental justice there is.

Bertha Funk probably has no need to worry, one way or another I believe the government will promptly fix this.
 

alphazip

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screech339 said:
Technically your brother wasn't suppose to get citizenship by descent through your father since he wasn't canadian at the time of his birth. Your father got it back per 2009. However your brother shouldn't have been able to to get citizenship since father wasn't Canadian at the time.

This may be one the few mistakes CIC made.
What you say is not correct at all. Per the 2009 changes, virtually every person born in Canada (except those who lost British subject status before 1947...but they were covered in the 2015 changes) who lost their citizenship after January 1, 1947 by taking another citizenship got it back AND their children in the 1st generation got Canadian citizenship for the first time. You had better read up on the law.
 

links18

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screech339 said:
The first and second generation Canadian April 17, 2009 is also an arbitrary cutoff for passing citizenship to children born abroad. Why don't we just get rid of it and have every Canadians pass on citizenship for generations and make tons "Canadian of Convenience" like we seen at the Lebanon conflicts. Canadian citizenship is a privilege, not a right.
Well, I think Canadian citizenship is a right for those legally entitled to it, but here is an article about a group fighting to do away with the very arbitrary distinction you cite: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/children-born-abroad-to-canadian-parents-may-end-up-as-lost-canadians/article30938653/
 

screech339

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links18 said:
Well, I think Canadian citizenship is a right for those legally entitled to it, but here is an article about a group fighting to do away with the very arbitrary distinction you cite: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/children-born-abroad-to-canadian-parents-may-end-up-as-lost-canadians/article30938653/
According to the article, basically they want canada to pass on citizenship for generations to those outside canada with no connections to canada. In other words, create Canadians of Convenience.
 

Leon

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screech339 said:
According to the article, basically they want canada to pass on citizenship for generations to those outside canada with no connections to canada. In other words, create Canadians of Convenience.
IMO the current rules are better because there is no danger as with the old ones that people get citizenship as children and do not know they have to apply to retain it later on. However, I think they could add that in case a baby becomes stateless due to not being eligible for either parents citizenship nor the birth country, that an exception can be made.

They could also consider having similar rules as the US where a parent can pass citizenship to their child if they have lived in the US for a certain number of years. However, that would involve more work into researching who has lived where and for how long.
 

alphazip

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screech339 said:
Technically your brother wasn't suppose to get citizenship by descent through your father since he wasn't canadian at the time of his birth. Your father got it back per 2009. However your brother shouldn't have been able to to get citizenship since father wasn't Canadian at the time.

This may be one the few mistakes CIC made.
Wrong.

From the "Am I a Canadian Citizen?" tool: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules/

Q. Where were you born?
A. Outside Canada
Q. Parent or grandparent a Crown servant?
A. No
Q. Granted citizenship?
A. No
Q. At least one parent born in Canada?
A. Yes

YOU ARE PROBABLY A CANADIAN CITIZEN