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What to do when employer refuses to provide letter of employment.

forum_user

Member
Jan 2, 2013
14
0
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
NOC Code......
2174
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
14-03-2013
AOR Received.
23-04-2013
IELTS Request
Sent with App
Med's Request
10-Dec-2013
Med's Done....
13-Dec-2013
Passport Req..
10-Jan-2013
Seniors,
Please reply - need your help on this ASAP
 

Andy2109

Champion Member
May 7, 2012
1,039
52
London Ontario
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
NOC Code......
2171
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
02 Jan 13
AOR Received.
17 Feb 13
Med's Done....
Upfront
Passport Req..
23 Oct 13
forum_user said:
Seniors,
Please reply - need your help on this ASAP
Your duties and responsibilities need to be elaborated further. Two liners might not help.
 

ssparkles

Hero Member
Apr 22, 2012
227
8
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo NY
NOC Code......
1311
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
June 4, 2012
Doc's Request.
Nov 8, 2012 & March 19, 2013
AOR Received.
Oct 25, 2012
IELTS Request
Submitted with Application
Med's Request
Mar 19, 2013
Med's Done....
March 22 & received by CIC on April 10, 2013
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
May 7, 2013, sent out passport same day.
VISA ISSUED...
May 21, 2013
LANDED..........
May 22, 2013
Hey forum_user

In my first application 2 liners did not help. It was refused.

When i spoke to a lawyer the job 'description' was advised to be an 80% match of the job description provided on the cic website under the job title category. The 'description' or 'duties' as they call it is one of the requirements. Stating what you do is the position which is a separate requirement. In effect you are missing one requirement i.e job description (preferably checked with the noc description on the cic website)

I know its not easy but don't ignore this. Hope this helps.
 

ssparkles

Hero Member
Apr 22, 2012
227
8
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo NY
NOC Code......
1311
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
June 4, 2012
Doc's Request.
Nov 8, 2012 & March 19, 2013
AOR Received.
Oct 25, 2012
IELTS Request
Submitted with Application
Med's Request
Mar 19, 2013
Med's Done....
March 22 & received by CIC on April 10, 2013
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
May 7, 2013, sent out passport same day.
VISA ISSUED...
May 21, 2013
LANDED..........
May 22, 2013
I just sent the email to the manager. The waiting begins. I feel so nervous and the day hasn't even started. :mad:
 

ssparkles

Hero Member
Apr 22, 2012
227
8
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo NY
NOC Code......
1311
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
June 4, 2012
Doc's Request.
Nov 8, 2012 & March 19, 2013
AOR Received.
Oct 25, 2012
IELTS Request
Submitted with Application
Med's Request
Mar 19, 2013
Med's Done....
March 22 & received by CIC on April 10, 2013
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
May 7, 2013, sent out passport same day.
VISA ISSUED...
May 21, 2013
LANDED..........
May 22, 2013
CEC2013 said:
But just because its not required by law doesn't mean you should lose hope. Just make sure your message does not implicate any legal requirements, but rather making it about the request itself, which is a part of the process. And, the fact is, you need to do this whether or not they decide to provide you with a letter. You will need proof for CIC, even if they say no. Just make sure you come up with a backup plan if they dont respond.
Hmm.. I am also thinking of how to go about it if I get no response. It was helpful to see your post created earlier about the employment standards act. Gives a good idea of what is and is not allowed or required.

Well I'm going to keep forwarding the same msg to all the managers that way should I need to send it to CIC at the end (as a result of not getting anything) then I can show who all I have contacted and what they said. Email trail. Although I wonder if CIC would care for such a thing.
 

CEC2013

Hero Member
Dec 8, 2012
866
48
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
NOC Code......
1122
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
04 FEB 2013
Doc's Request.
26 NOV 2013 (RPRF)
AOR Received.
14 MAR 2013
IELTS Request
Sent with application.
Med's Request
27 NOV 2013
Med's Done....
29 NOV 2013
Interview........
Waived.
Passport Req..
09 DEC 2013
VISA ISSUED...
19 DEC 2013
LANDED..........
21 DEC 2013
If they dont provide you with a letter, and you at least get one negative response, I think you should be able to make an argument for their lack of cooperation (also using the emails you sent out to everyone). Not sure if they will care, but certainly better to show something than just say you couldnt get it. Just keep trying and have patience...I'm sure something is bound to come up.

Good luck! :)
 

fonpi

Newbie
Mar 8, 2013
3
0
ssparkles said:
Hmm.. I am also thinking of how to go about it if I get no response. It was helpful to see your post created earlier about the employment standards act. Gives a good idea of what is and is not allowed or required.

Well I'm going to keep forwarding the same msg to all the managers that way should I need to send it to CIC at the end (as a result of not getting anything) then I can show who all I have contacted and what they said. Email trail. Although I wonder if CIC would care for such a thing.

Do you fully understand why banks have policies on not issuing employment references to people doing the "subcontracting work" for them?

It has something to do with the determination whether a worker is an "employee or contractor" under Employment Insurance Act, Canada Pension Plan and Income Tax Act.

Simply put it, if the bank issue you an employment reference, it might signify that you are in fact an "employee" and not a contractor (sent by an employment agency).


So, who cares if you are an "employee" or a contractor? Well, Canada Revenue Agency does.

Why? This is a quote from a CRA publication.

" If the worker is an employee (employer-employee relationship), the payer is considered an employer. Employers are responsible for deducting Canada Pension Plan (CPP) contributions, EI premiums, and income tax from remuneration or other amounts they pay to their employees. They have to remit these deductions along with their share of CPP contributions and EI premiums to the Canada Revenue Agency. An employer who fails to deduct the required CPP contributions or EI premiums has to pay both the employer’s share and the employee’s share of any contributions and premiums owing, plus penalties and interest."

Once, CRA determines that you are in fact an "employee" working for the real "employer - the bank" for all those years, the bank is liable for the required CPP contributions, EI premiums and penalties and interest. By having a copy of your employment reference letter issues by the bank indicating your job title, descriptions and duties, it should help CRA in determining your employment status in favor of you as an employee and not a contractor Therefore causing troubles for the bank.

But? Your employment agency pays all EI, CPP, and etc. Yes, the bank wants to keep it that way.

Any way, good luck with emails to your boss and her boss!

Consider this, if you are the boss receiving email(s) request employment reference or verification from a contractor (sending by an employment agency), what would you do? Will you be calling the the employment agency to end the "trouble"?


Fonpi
 

fonpi

Newbie
Mar 8, 2013
3
0
My posting sounds very negative because I believe your approach to the issue is heading the wrong way.
 

ssparkles

Hero Member
Apr 22, 2012
227
8
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo NY
NOC Code......
1311
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
June 4, 2012
Doc's Request.
Nov 8, 2012 & March 19, 2013
AOR Received.
Oct 25, 2012
IELTS Request
Submitted with Application
Med's Request
Mar 19, 2013
Med's Done....
March 22 & received by CIC on April 10, 2013
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
May 7, 2013, sent out passport same day.
VISA ISSUED...
May 21, 2013
LANDED..........
May 22, 2013
fonpi said:
Do you fully understand why banks have policies on not issuing employment references to people doing the "subcontracting work" for them?

It has something to do with the determination whether a worker is an "employee or contractor" under Employment Insurance Act, Canada Pension Plan and Income Tax Act.

Simply put it, if the bank issue you an employment reference, it might signify that you are in fact an "employee" and not a contractor (sent by an employment agency).

Yes I do fully understand the situation. I have been dealing it for some time now. That is why in the letter with Jes_On's help I've made sure I make this clear that i am a contract employee. It also states in the internal bank webpages that they are obligated to provide a reference whether it be a permanent contract or re-hire. I found this recently and that's why I feel I have a strong case. She told me last year she couldn't due to bank policy but this year i have it written on the bmo website so i wonder how she'll argue with that (although I wouldn't be surprised if she did)

So, who cares if you are an "employee" or a contractor? Well, Canada Revenue Agency does.

As for all the taxes my pay stubs sent to cic clearly show its all paid through the agency and even my taxes show that. Should the bank need to they can prove this on their part as the agency will provide this to them should need be. Its open and common knowledge. I don't see on what basis the bank can hold this point in particular.


Consider this, if you are the boss receiving email(s) request employment reference or verification from a contractor (sending by an employment agency), what would you do? Will you be calling the the employment agency to end the "trouble"?

Yes I would. My employer did call the agency last year and dealt with it. This year I'm back and calling the agency won't help. Coz everything the agency could provide has been provided and I even sent that to the manager while emailing today. So even if she had to call the agency what new could she ask I wonder? There doesn't seem to be anything left. I need proof from bmo. the agency saying that i worked at bmo isn't enough according to cic.
 

ssparkles

Hero Member
Apr 22, 2012
227
8
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo NY
NOC Code......
1311
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
June 4, 2012
Doc's Request.
Nov 8, 2012 & March 19, 2013
AOR Received.
Oct 25, 2012
IELTS Request
Submitted with Application
Med's Request
Mar 19, 2013
Med's Done....
March 22 & received by CIC on April 10, 2013
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
May 7, 2013, sent out passport same day.
VISA ISSUED...
May 21, 2013
LANDED..........
May 22, 2013
fonpi said:
My posting sounds very negative because I believe your approach to the issue is heading the wrong way.
Yes it sounds negative but hey, its your view. Everyone has their own.

I've been dealing with this since April 2011, so this is the line's end. So even if its not all written on this thread there are many many routes that have been taken, main options considered and barely any stones left unturned. If I was taking such steps in the beginning then it would be something to frown upon. But when you've tried almost everything and there really isn't anything more to turn to, you do what needs to be done. Anyway regardless of how good or bad the method is, either way I'll know within the week how its going
 

ssparkles

Hero Member
Apr 22, 2012
227
8
Category........
Visa Office......
Buffalo NY
NOC Code......
1311
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
June 4, 2012
Doc's Request.
Nov 8, 2012 & March 19, 2013
AOR Received.
Oct 25, 2012
IELTS Request
Submitted with Application
Med's Request
Mar 19, 2013
Med's Done....
March 22 & received by CIC on April 10, 2013
Interview........
waived
Passport Req..
May 7, 2013, sent out passport same day.
VISA ISSUED...
May 21, 2013
LANDED..........
May 22, 2013
CEC2013 said:
If they dont provide you with a letter, and you at least get one negative response, I think you should be able to make an argument for their lack of cooperation (also using the emails you sent out to everyone). Not sure if they will care, but certainly better to show something than just say you couldnt get it. Just keep trying and have patience...I'm sure something is bound to come up.

Good luck! :)
Thanks CEC2013 for your support. I guess either way I might have something to show CEC by the end of this. However this is Accounting at a bank and they know way too well about leaving trails. But they have to say 'sommmmething' right. Lets see.
 

GinnyPi

Star Member
Feb 21, 2013
123
6
Category........
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
fonpi said:
My posting sounds very negative because I believe your approach to the issue is heading the wrong way.
ssparkles said:
Yes it sounds negative but hey, its your view. Everyone has their own.

I've been dealing with this since April 2011, so this is the line's end. So even if its not all written on this thread there are many many routes that have been taken, main options considered and barely any stones left unturned. If I was taking such steps in the beginning then it would be something to frown upon. But when you've tried almost everything and there really isn't anything more to turn to, you do what needs to be done. Anyway regardless of how good or bad the method is, either way I'll know within the week how its going
Since we're all giving opinions, I think you're going about this the correct way. You thought long and hard about how to approach the manager, you discussed with people on the forum who understand the CEC side of it, as well as some other manager who understands your manager and work environment.
Not only did you email the manager in a timely fashion, you have a plan of action in place for "what happens next".
Whether or not this first email works, I really believe that you'll get what you need eventually before the 60 days are up. Please keep us updated and hopefully everyone will continue to help as we can.
 

fonpi

Newbie
Mar 8, 2013
3
0
ssparkles said:
Yes it sounds negative but hey, its your view. Everyone has their own.

I've been dealing with this since April 2011, so this is the line's end. So even if its not all written on this thread there are many many routes that have been taken, main options considered and barely any stones left unturned. If I was taking such steps in the beginning then it would be something to frown upon. But when you've tried almost everything and there really isn't anything more to turn to, you do what needs to be done. Anyway regardless of how good or bad the method is, either way I'll know within the week how its going
NOC 1311 Accounting technicians and bookkeepers main duties listed as:
• Keep financial records and establish, maintain and balance various accounts using manual and computerized bookkeeping systems
• Post journal entries and reconcile accounts, prepare trial balance of books, maintain general ledgers and prepare financial statements
• Calculate and prepare cheques for payrolls and for utility, tax and other bills
• Complete and submit tax remittance forms, workers' compensation forms, pension contribution forms and other government documents
• Prepare tax returns and perform other personal bookkeeping services
• Prepare other statistical, financial and accounting reports.
The immigration officer needs you to show that you are actually doing the above duties. Since, your “supervisor” is not welling to voucher the above duties for you. I assume that your relationship with your current supervisor has already “fried” last year.


To show the immigration officer that you are actually do the above duties, you might want to have co-workers, clients or anybody involved with your daily tasks to help you out. (You do have co-workers or clients in your work environment right?)

1. Do you have co-workers that do the same daily tasks as you? Ask them to write a letter for you stating that they are your co-workers and have been working with you for the past xxx years performing the above duties. (Before asking them to do this, take them out to have a beer or coffee (after work), your chance of getting the letters will greatly improved)
2. Copies of email, fax or other correspondence between you and your coworkers, supervisors, or clients discussing any issues arising when performing any of the above duties during the past years. Have a certified public accountant certify that the issue arising is in fact related any of the above tasks (this might cause you some money).
3. Any copies of computer logs showing you log-in the accounting system and performing the above duties. You might need your IT administrator to print this out and certify the access logs belong to you.

Yep, this is a lot work. Yes, it’s much easier if you can just get your supervisor to write you a reference letter, if the relationship is still there.
 

Pippin

VIP Member
Mar 22, 2010
4,254
530
I appreciate the fact you have been banging your head against this brick wall for far too long and I think Fonpi may have offered you an important clue. You may be able to use the CRA information to your advantage. It clearly explains WHY BMO, or any other institution who have workers from an agency, would not want to write the reference. Good luck.
 

CEC2013

Hero Member
Dec 8, 2012
866
48
Category........
Visa Office......
CPP-O
NOC Code......
1122
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
04 FEB 2013
Doc's Request.
26 NOV 2013 (RPRF)
AOR Received.
14 MAR 2013
IELTS Request
Sent with application.
Med's Request
27 NOV 2013
Med's Done....
29 NOV 2013
Interview........
Waived.
Passport Req..
09 DEC 2013
VISA ISSUED...
19 DEC 2013
LANDED..........
21 DEC 2013
fonpi said:
1. Do you have co-workers that do the same daily tasks as you? Ask them to write a letter for you stating that they are your co-workers and have been working with you for the past xxx years performing the above duties. (Before asking them to do this, take them out to have a beer or coffee (after work), your chance of getting the letters will greatly improved)
Point 1 ... take them out for a drink. Classic! You would have had me at that. LOL 8)