URGENT - How is the 5 Year for PR Renewal Determination Counted?

[Rob_TO]

Will the five year only exam by the visa officer when we apply for the PR card? how about immigration officer in the airport?
Let's say my mom pass the first five year, and she get the new PR card. Since she stay in Canada the first two years and away for three year. when she travel in the middle of her second five year, will the airport immigration officer exam that for last five years she is not stay in Canada for two years and stop her entering Canada? My mom plan to stay in canada for the last two years of her second 5 years. Is that ok?

There are no "first' or "second" 5 years. The 5 years is a rolling amount. So as soon as you spend 3 years outside Canada, you must then spend the next 2 years inside Canada to maintain RO. Once you have spent more than 3 years of any 5 year period outside Canada, you are in violation of RO.

If in violation of RO, CBSA can report you upon entry to Canada. It doesn't matter if your PR card is valid or not.

If reported, you are still allowed into Canada since you can decide to appeal the decision, although appeal has low chance of success. If appeal is lost, PR status is terminated and you are then asked to leave Canada.

If not reported, then you can only apply to rewnew PR card if you have at least 730 days of residency in Canada, going back 5 years from the date you submit the PR card renewal application.

 

[Buletruck]

the officer will not stop her entering

No, they won't stop her entering, but if she does not meet the residency obligation when she enters, she may be reported. If they do report her, that starts the process to revoke her PR status in Canada.

when she apply for new PR, we will make sure she stay in Canada for 730 days

Do not apply for a new PR card until she has at least 730 days in Canada in the last 5 years. Count backwards from today (January 16/2018 to January 16/2013). How many days has your mom been in Canada during that time? It needs to be at least 730, or she is already in violation.

Will she get the new PR without any problem or she will get problem that the airport officer report her violate 730 before.

If she is reported, you will need to appeal or they will take her PR away. If she does not meet residency obligation (730 days in the last 5 years) she should not apply for a new PR until she has the required days. She should not leave Canada again until she has the required days.

 

[canuck78]

It is up to the officer at the airport whether she gets reported for not meet in the RO. It would obviously be easier just to follow the residency obligations then you wouldn't have to worry that her PR could be revoked and she could leave the country if she ever has an emergency.

 

[dpakdu]

I got my landing papers on Feb 26th 2014 but I entered canada on June 26th 2104 and got my PR card on August 26th 2014. May I know, from which date my 720 days will start counted. After receiving my PR card i am visiting my home country on and off and my PR card is valid upto August 25th 2019. Im planning to renew my PR card on june 2019. So on June 2019 I should have 720 days in canada or can I apply anytime but from the date of application i should have 720 days in last five years ?

 

[canuck78]

I got my landing papers on Feb 26th 2014 but I entered canada on June 26th 2104 and got my PR card on August 26th 2014. May I know, from which date my 720 days will start counted. After receiving my PR card i am visiting my home country on and off and my PR card is valid upto August 25th 2019. Im planning to renew my PR card on june 2019. So on June 2019 I should have 720 days in canada or can I apply anytime but from the date of application i should have 720 days in last five years ?

It starts June 26th 2014. DO NOT renew your pr card until you meet the RO (730 days in 5 years). Since it seems like you are currently not in compliance with the RO I would recommend that you remain in Canada until you have reached 730 days. It is not a problem if your PR card is expired when you go to renew it. The PR card is just for travel and you can live in Canada with an expired PR card. I would also add a couple of months as a buffer when you renew your PR card. It seems like you have been out of the country for quite some time so you will likely end up in secondary review when you apply to renew the PR card.

 

[dpakdu]

First of all, thank you very much for clarification so promptly and for your precious time and valuable advise.
Here I need some more clarification, please. I request you to be clear if you don't understand my question and situation, though i have tried my best to elaborate in simplest manner.
I applied for permanent residency in Canada and got my passport stamped on 07.02.2014 (with landing papers) with the condition that I can visit one-time latest by 12.12.2014.
I visited first time in 26.06.2014. my number of days in Canada year wise are as follows:
2014 95 days
2015 00 days
2016 166 days
2017 229 days
2018 22 days
total 512 days I have spent in Canada so far. and my PR card is valid up to 11.08.2019.
now in March 2018, I wish to visit my country again.
For a very safer side, may I know how many days I can maximum stay during my trip?

I don't want to take any risk with my residency status.
Also, may I request you to highlight the second review.
what difference does it make if they send my pr renewal case for the second review? Is it any risk in getting a new card in any way? does it take longer or what exactly it is. Please.

 

[evdm]

Hi @depakdu,

I am not a lawyer or immigration specialist/consultant so please do not take this advice as anything other than a random person on the internet's opinion and seek proper counsel should you have any questions or concerns.

If I understand correctly, you are currently in Canada and you wish to leave Canada in March of this year to visit another country.

For this trip for you, the relevant period starts on 26 June, 2014 and runs till 25 June, 2019. In that time you will have to be able to have been in Canada for 730 days. so let's say you want to leave Canada on March 1. That means that you would have spent 549 days in Canada up to the day you leave, meaning you are 181 days short of being able to satisfy your residency obligation.

In theory, your return date must therefore be no later than 181 days before 25 June, 2019 which would be 26 December, 2018 (Assuming you leave on March 1). This, because when you enter Canada you have to show to the officer that you will be able to satisfy your residency requirement for the remaining period of your first 5 years as a PR if they ask for it. In my opinion it would be cutting it close.

Furthermore, after 25 June 2019 a rolling period of 5 years starts (the expiration date on your PR card is irrelevant). That means that from whatever day after June 25 2019 onward, you have to count back only five years and tally up the number of days in Canada in that period. This means that one-by-one your days spent in Canada in 2014 will no longer count for you.

If you return to Canada within the appropriate period the chances of a border guard counting the days is pretty slim, but the chance is always there. To be safe, I would not make your trip outside of Canada very long and make sure that you are well over the required number of days, perhaps by a few weeks or even months.

While you may not run into many problems at the border (but there is potential for review or questioning), you will eventually have to apply for a new PR Card if you wish to travel in and out of Canada easily (the PR card is not your status, but a travel document). When you file this application, you will have to show that you have met the residency obligations in the 5 years prior to the date of the application. That's also why I suggest that you leave yourself a buffer. You can count on your status being reviewed and days in canada scrutinized for this application, so be prepared to show evidence that you have met the requirements such as plane tickets and boarding passes/passport stamps/etc. to show you were in Canada for the days you say you were.

Your absences from Canada do have the potential to complicate things for you, so I wouldn't take any chances and definitely wouldn't cut it close. Try to get as many days in Canada as you can before you make any application with IRCC.

Given that there's only one year so far that you have been in Canada for more than 183 days, you also will likely only have one Canadian tax return. Showing that you have established yourself in Canada and that you are contributing to Canadian society will weigh heavily in any review of your file. I would advise you to actually settle in Canada as is the spirit of the PR program.

 

[dpenabill]

For a very safer side, may I know how many days I can maximum stay during my trip?

I don't want to take any risk with my residency status.

I largely concur in the thorough response by @evdm and the following in particular.

In theory, your return date must therefore be no later than 181 days before 25 June, 2019 which would be 26 December, 2018 (Assuming you leave on March 1). This, because when you enter Canada you have to show to the officer that you will be able to satisfy your residency requirement for the remaining period of your first 5 years as a PR if they ask for it. In my opinion it would be cutting it close.

As for . . .

total 512 days I have spent in Canada so far. and my PR card is valid up to 11.08.2019.

The date your PR card is valid for is NOT RELEVANT. NOT RELEVANT.

Count how many days you have been in Canada since the date you landed and became a PR, until the date you leave. The start date, the date you landed, appears to be June 26, 2014. Count days in Canada from that day to the day you leave Canada.

Add to that the number of days there are left on the calendar between the date you leave and June 25, 2019, the day before the fifth year anniversary of the day you landed.

If that total is 730 days or more, you are in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation.

Then subtract the number of those days you will be abroad before June 26, 2019. As long as the total is still above 730 you are in compliance.

But if that total is less than, say, 900 days total, that is cutting-it-close (that is spending less than half time in Canada, indicating you have not fully settled in Canada and tending to support an inference you were outside Canada any dates which it is not for-sure you show you were in Canada), which could mean you are challenged about meeting the PR RO and would need to present substantive proof of your days in Canada. Remember, while the actual number of days you spend in Canada are important, decisions can be made based on the number of days you PROVE you were in Canada.

This forum is rife with tales of trial and tribulation, tales of woe even, for PRs who cut-it-close. Many made it back to Canada in time, but faced long delays in getting a new PR card and the difficulties that can cause. More than a few ran into additional problems and failed to make it back to Canada in time. An accident or compelling situation that means having to stay abroad an extra three months, delaying a return past the date for staying in compliance, for example, is NOT likely to suffice as H&C reasons for waiving a breach of the PR RO . . . the PR had three other years to spend in Canada. (Many an IAD panel and Federal Court justice have emphasized that the reason for the very liberal PR RO is precisely to accommodate such things, to accommodate compelling circumstances in life, NOT to facilitate only partially living in Canada plus an emergency or such.)

Remember, just because a PR card is still valid does not guarantee the PR does not get reported when arriving at the Port-of-Entry into Canada. A PR in the first five years since landing who returns to Canada during the last two years of the first five years after an extended absence (many months or more) actually faces a significant risk of a Residency examination at the PoE.

 

[thisizpiyush92]

Hello everybody. My PR started on 5 Oct, 2018. I stayed 125 days and came back. My PR will get expire on 4 Oct, 2023. I am doubtful if I would be able to complete 730 days till that period. Now I need 605 more days to fulfill the condition. My questions are -

1. Do I need to complete 730 days prior to filling the application for PR renewal or 730 days starting immediately from the date I became PR i.e. 5 Oct, 2018. Means 730 days start from the the day you become PR or counts back from the date you lodge application for renewal.

2. Let me explain using an example, suppose I now go back to Canada 1 January, 2023. Would I be able to renew my PR in any case. I

 

[21Goose]

Hello everybody. My PR started on 5 Oct, 2018. I stayed 125 days and came back. My PR will get expire on 4 Oct, 2023. I am doubtful if I would be able to complete 730 days till that period. Now I need 605 more days to fulfill the condition. My questions are -

1. Do I need to complete 730 days prior to filling the application for PR renewal or 730 days starting immediately from the date I became PR i.e. 5 Oct, 2018. Means 730 days start from the the day you become PR or counts back from the date you lodge application for renewal.

2. Let me explain using an example, suppose I now go back to Canada 1 January, 2023. Would I be able to renew my PR in any case. I

In the first five year period (for you, 5 Oct 2018 - 5 Oct 2023, both days inclusive), you need to show that you have lived in Canada for 730 days, or that you will be able to complete 730 days.

After the first five year period is over, it becomes a rolling five years, and you need to show that you lived in Canada for 730 days in the previous five years. That period moves forward every day.

In your example, you need 605 days, so simply subtract 605 from 5 Oct 2023. You will have to return to Canada by Feb 7, 2022 and stay till Oct 5 2023 to meet your Residency Obligation.

If you attempt to return to Canada after 7 Feb 2022, you may start getting questioned about not meeting your RO. The longer you wait, the more likely you are to be reported for not meeting RO.

 

[evdm]

Hello everybody. My PR started on 5 Oct, 2018. I stayed 125 days and came back. My PR will get expire on 4 Oct, 2023. I am doubtful if I would be able to complete 730 days till that period. Now I need 605 more days to fulfill the condition. My questions are -

1. Do I need to complete 730 days prior to filling the application for PR renewal or 730 days starting immediately from the date I became PR i.e. 5 Oct, 2018. Means 730 days start from the the day you become PR or counts back from the date you lodge application for renewal.

2. Let me explain using an example, suppose I now go back to Canada 1 January, 2023. Would I be able to renew my PR in any case. I

Please could you clarify your dates?

You state that your PR will "expire" on 4 Oct, 2023.
PR Status does not expire, however a PR Card does. Did you land on Oct. 5, 2018 or is that the date that your card was issued? These are two different things. The dates on your PR Card do not matter at all for your residency obligation.

 

[tmncaesar]

Dear All,
Thank you for your immense feedback and support.
I would like to ask a question regarding residency obligation and in need of your assistance. Please kindly note the following dates:

Landing Date: 21 May 2016
PR card Expiry: 12 July 2021

Time spent in Canada:
2016: 21 days
2017: 0 days
2018: 0 days
2019: 40 days
Total so far = 61 days in Canada.


When I renew my PR card for the very first time, what five years do they look at? is it strictly he five years validity of the PR card or do they count five years starting backwards from the date when a renewal application is submitted?

If the answer to my question is first one i.e. "they look at the 5 years duration validity of the PR card", then I think I am at risk of not being able to meet my RO as I am planning (due to personal reasons) to extend my stay outside Canada beyond 1095 days and thus will be able to be physically present for 730 in Canada... :S

On the other hand, if they only look at the 5 years leading up to date when the PR renewal application is submitted, then I might be on the safe side and in this case, I will remain in Canada beyond the expiry date of my PR card to make up for the days I have missed in the past. So basically what I am saying is that rather than submitting my application for PR renewal on 12 July 2021, which is the day of PR card expiry date, I think it is better to remain in Canada for an extra couple of months and only submit a renewal application when I am sure that I have satisfied 730 days (or more) within a five-year period counting backwards from the date of PR renewal application date.

Is this the right logic? Am I thinking in the right direction?

Thanks!

 

[21Goose]

Dear All,
Thank you for your immense feedback and support.
I would like to ask a question regarding residency obligation and in need of your assistance. Please kindly note the following dates:

Landing Date: 21 May 2016
PR card Expiry: 12 July 2021

Time spent in Canada:
2016: 21 days
2017: 0 days
2018: 0 days
2019: 40 days
Total so far = 61 days in Canada.


When I renew my PR card for the very first time, what five years do they look at? is it strictly he five years validity of the PR card or do they count five years starting backwards from the date when a renewal application is submitted?

If the answer to my question is first one i.e. "they look at the 5 years duration validity of the PR card", then I think I am at risk of not being able to meet my RO as I am planning (due to personal reasons) to extend my stay outside Canada beyond 1095 days and thus will be able to be physically present for 730 in Canada... :S

On the other hand, if they only look at the 5 years leading up to date when the PR renewal application is submitted, then I might be on the safe side and in this case, I will remain in Canada beyond the expiry date of my PR card to make up for the days I have missed in the past. So basically what I am saying is that rather than submitting my application for PR renewal on 12 July 2021, which is the day of PR card expiry date, I think it is better to remain in Canada for an extra couple of months and only submit a renewal application when I am sure that I have satisfied 730 days (or more) within a five-year period counting backwards from the date of PR renewal application date.

Is this the right logic? Am I thinking in the right direction?

Thanks!

The first five-year period starts from the day you landed. This is the only fixed five-year period. After this, it becomes a rolling five-year period.

Put another way, in your first five-year period, the officer can give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say you spent three years outside Canada, and then come back. Mathematically, if you stay put for 2 years you will meet your RO, so the officer will count those days and you won't (usually) have an issue. This is the only time where future days can be counted.

After your first five-year period is over, it becomes a rolling five-years, where the officer will look at the previous five years from the day you're being examined/applied for a new card. They will not count any days in the future.

Are you currently in Canada? if so, then yes, you can stay beyond the expiry of your card to ensure that you meet the 730-day requirement before you apply for a renewal.

If you aren't in Canada right now, and you attempt to come back, you may have issues even if your card is valid if it is clear that it is mathematically impossible for you to meet the RO. The officer may tell you that there's no way you can meet your RO, even if he counts future days, and he may report you. Or he may let you in. If he lets you in, yes, you can stay for a full two years to make sure you meet your RO.

 

[tmncaesar]

The first five-year period starts from the day you landed. This is the only fixed five-year period. After this, it becomes a rolling five-year period.

Put another way, in your first five-year period, the officer can give you the benefit of the doubt. Let's say you spent three years outside Canada, and then come back. Mathematically, if you stay put for 2 years you will meet your RO, so the officer will count those days and you won't (usually) have an issue. This is the only time where future days can be counted.

After your first five-year period is over, it becomes a rolling five-years, where the officer will look at the previous five years from the day you're being examined/applied for a new card. They will not count any days in the future.

Are you currently in Canada? if so, then yes, you can stay beyond the expiry of your card to ensure that you meet the 730-day requirement before you apply for a renewal.

If you aren't in Canada right now, and you attempt to come back, you may have issues even if your card is valid if it is clear that it is mathematically impossible for you to meet the RO. The officer may tell you that there's no way you can meet your RO, even if he counts future days, and he may report you. Or he may let you in. If he lets you in, yes, you can stay for a full two years to make sure you meet your RO.

Thank you for your prompt reply.

Can you please elaborate more when you say "after your first five-year period is over it becomes a rolling five-years"? What "first" five years do you mean? what does "first" mean in the context of this statement? is it the "first" five years of PR card validity?

The way I am understanding this is as follow: to be on the safe side and if I ever need a PR card to be renewed for the sake of traveling and coming back, then always renew your PR at least 6 months (just throwing a number here) after its expiry date in order to make up any missed days in a 5 year period counted backward from the date of PR renewal application.

and to answer your question, I am not in Canada right now, and mathematically speaking I have to be back there on Monday 22nd July 2019 in order to be allowed in at the port of entry without any issues but I don't think I will be able to do that as I need to spend a few extra weeks outside.

Just FYI. Last time I was there in June 2019 and I stayed for 40 days, I had to scan my PR card at a kiosk at the entry and a small sort of white paper bill was printed from the kiosk and then the officer looked at it and made a scribble of two lines a using a red marker on the left corner. So I don't know if the next time I will be there and I had to scan my PR at a kiosk to enter, the machine will detect any RO discrepancies !!

 

[21Goose]

Thank you for your prompt reply.

Can you please elaborate more when you say "after your first five-year period is over it becomes a rolling five-years"? What "first" five years do you mean? what does "first" mean in the context of this statement? is it the "first" five years of PR card validity?

The way I am understanding this is as follow: to be on the safe side and if I ever need a PR card to be renewed for the sake of traveling and coming back, then always renew your PR at least 6 months (just throwing a number here) after its expiry date in order to make up any missed days in a 5 year period counted backward from the date of PR renewal application.

and to answer your question, I am not in Canada right now, and mathematically speaking I have to be back there on Monday 22nd July 2019 in order to be allowed in at the port of entry without any issues but I don't think I will be able to do that as I need to spend a few extra weeks outside.

Just FYI. Last time I was there in June 2019 and I stayed for 40 days, I had to scan my PR card at a kiosk at the entry and a small sort of white paper bill was printed from the kiosk and then the officer looked at it and made a scribble of two lines a using a red marker on the left corner. So I don't know if the next time I will be there and I had to scan my PR at a kiosk to enter, the machine will detect any RO discrepancies !!

The first five year period is the first five years from the date you become a PR. In your specific case: 21 May 2016 - 21 May 2021.

It's not really related to your PR card expiry - PR status is not the same as PR card validity. You have to maintain a residency of 730 days in Canada in any five year period to keep your status in good standing.

Your PR card renewal example isn't accurate - it's got nothing to do with the expiration of the actual card. It's much simpler than that.

Let's say you want to renew a PR card today (it may or may not be expired). You would count backwards five years from today. If, in that five year period, you have been physically present in Canada for 730 days, you have maintained your RO. If you haven't been physically present for730 days, you must wait till you have 730 days before you apply. (In this example, I'm not considering future days - take this as happening after May 2021).

RO can be checked at any time when you interact with CBSA - when you're arriving at a Port of Entry, CBSA can ask you to confirm that you have met your RO. The last time you came to Canada, you were easily inside the mathematical possibility of maintaining your RO, so you had no issues.

If you come after July 22, you stand the risk of being reported for not maintaining your RO and having your PR cancelled. It will be a small risk to start with, but will increase with every day you spend outside. If you try and enter next year, for example, the risk is much greater. No one can predict exactly what will happen at the Port of Entry, but you have to be aware that you are risking your PR if you don't maintain your RO.