URGENT - How is the 5 Year for PR Renewal Determination Counted?

[us2yow]

Hi,

I am unclear about how the 5 years is determined. Say, I landed on Aug 15, 2007, the 5 years for the PR cycle ends Aug 15, 2012. Also, the PR card says the card expires Sep 14, 2012.

Here are my questions:

1) When I apply for renewal of the card is the period of consideration when I should have accumulated atleast 730 days strictly the above 5 year period (i.e. Aug 15, 2007 - Aug 15, 2012)?

2) What if I am able to accumulate the 730 days only by the end of Aug 2012 (and not on or before Aug 15, 2012) which means I will apply for renewal sometime in September 2012; Would that extra time accumulated until the September 2012 date which I use to sign my application count? (so lets say I sign my renewal application for Sep 8, 2012 ==> do the net days present from the DAY OF LANDING (Aug 15, 2007) up until to Sep 8,2012 count ? OR is the frame of reference strictly whether the 730 was accumulated between Aug 15, 2007 and Aug 15, 2012; never mind when I apply for the card thereafter ?

3) What is the so called Expiry date on the card of Sep 14, 2012;

4) So does the second 5 year cycle implicitly begin starting Aug 16, 2012 or is depending on when the new card was processed (based on when it was dated and received etc).


Leon or somebody else....kindly highlight the critical fine point in interpreting how the 5 year works..MANY THANKS

 

[Leon]

It is a rolling 5 year period. That means that on any given day, you should be able to look back at the previous 5 years and say that you have at least 730 days in Canada.

The PR cards are issued for 5 years at a time. It does not really have anything to do with the residency requirements also being based on a 5 year period. You can let your PR card expire and apply to renew at any point when it is convenient for you and they will calculate your residency based on the previous 5 years before you apply to renew. You can also apply before your PR card expires if you meet the residency requirements already and you want to get your new card before your old card expires.

 

[us2yow]

This is directed to Leon:

So, basically what you are saying is I can go beyond the Aug 15, 2012 deadline and apply for my card AT SUCH TIME WHEN I HAVE atleast 730 days ?

I need not have accumulated the 730 days ONLY within that ironclad window of Aug 15 2007 - Aug 15 , 2012.

In other words, if at Aug 15, 2012 I am short by say 50 days. I wait till I have atleast 50 days accumulated and then apply sometime in November 2012 when I have atleast 730 days ?

What is the implication of the card expiry on Sep 14, 2012 -> does it mean beyond that date one cannot use that particular card to re-enter Canada and it has to be a new one ?

 

[Leon]

Yes, the only problem you face if you let yourself get to a point that you don't meet the residency requirements that if you are outside Canada and need to get in, if immigration pulls you out and accuses you of not meeting the residency requirements, you could lose your PR. Same if you are outside Canada, don't meet the residency requirements and lose your PR card. If you are not visa exempt, you will need a PR travel document and to apply for it, you need to list your absences in the previous 5 years from that date.

If you get into Canada without any questions being asked about that, you can wait until you have more than 730 days and then apply to renew.

The expiry date of the PR card means that yes, you can not use it to travel. Besides, if you don't meet the residency requirements, the last thing you want to do is leave Canada because you take a risk every time you want to get back in.

 

[us2yow]

Leon: Thanks for your patience;

however, I feel like I want to reiterate facts that I have hopefully comprehended based on the scenario I presented and your explanations; This is especially since I was operating in the earlier frame of mind when the 730 days had to absolutely be in that rigid window of on or before Aug 15, 2012 ;
Note: the frame of reference below is I first became PR Aug 15, 2007; I have accumulated mini-chunks of time in trips to Canada prior to my move to live here full-time; And I now live in Canada full-time having moved prior to the two year limit to Aug 15, 2012 kicking in;

1) You are saying that I CAN go beyond the August 15, 2012 limit to accumulate the 730 days ; However, the 5 year period for counting PR will then move since the date of my application for renewal would also move to some date past Aug 2012;

2) This means that if my work involves some occasional brief travel which cumulatively adds up to some- but not too glaring number of days by way of exits- I can travel since I CAN go beyond the Aug 2012 deadline until I "hit" 730 days before applying for PR renewal; however, all of the travel should be done when the current PR card is still active; Also, good to keep the paper work related to each of those trips, of course; (ticket, confirmation, boarding passes etc etc);

3) Ideally, I should not do any travel past the card expiry date of Sep 14, 2012 and until I receive my new card;

 

[Leon]

1) After the first 5 year as a PR, the window starts moving. If you apply on Sept 20. 2012, you will have to prove residency for the 5 years previous, that is from Sept 20. 2007 to Sept 20. 2012.

2) From what you say now, you do not meet the residency requirements and will not be able to meet them in your first 5 years as a PR. Because of that, it is risky for you to travel at the moment. If you are examined at the border and they tell you that they believe that you do not meet the residency requirements, you must prove that you do or you will lose your PR. I do not know what the risk is of being examined at the border but if it happens, you have a problem.

3) If you show up at the border with an expired PR card or no PR card, just landing papers, you almost guarantee that you will be examined and that means if you can't prove that you meet the residency requirements, you lose your PR.

It is like this. In your first 5 years as a PR, you must have at least 730 days in Canada and same in each rolling 5 year period after that. However, if you stay in Canada, the chances of being examined for residency requirements are very low so it is mainly when you apply to renew your PR card and when you travel that you can get caught.

 

[us2yow]

Many Thanks again Leon for your comments. Also, seeking reactions on the below:.

A) If I undertook some more travel (occasional 2 week chunks every now and then overseas, lets say) between now and Aug 15, 2012, I will be short of the 730 days and so will have to go past that date to make up the 730 days before which I can apply for PR renewal;

Comment: I see the document OP 10 on PR Status Determination, if you see page 16 on Section of the Act/Regulations. Are you saying in this case A28(2)(b)(ii) would apply? In other words, By Sep 2012 my current PR card would have expired anyway and I would not risk traveling but in the meantime I will have accumulated the 730 days at some date not too far from Aug 15, 2012 and so I just stay put and DONT travel until I get my new PR card.
A28(2)(b)(ii): If a permanent resident for five years or more, must demonstrate that they have met the residency obligation during the five-year period immediately before the examination of their residency status by an officer.[/color] . So, if my application were dated say Oct 20, 2012, using the above clause the officer would examine the last 5 years going back to Oct 20, 2007. PERIOD.

Clause A28(2)(b)(i) on page 15 WOULD NOT APPLY since I did not accumulate 730 days before Aug 15, 2012 and so applied within the formal 5 year period before my card expired RIGHT ? : A28(2)(b)(i): If a permanent resident for less than five years, must demonstrate that they will be able to meet the residency obligation during the five-year period immediately following their becoming a permanent resident.

The key is not to travel at all when I have applied for my new card;

 

[Leon]

A) If I undertook some more travel (occasional 2 week chunks every now and then overseas, lets say) between now and Aug 15, 2012, I will be short of the 730 days and so will have to go past that date to make up the 730 days before which I can apply for PR renewal;

Yes, if you are short of days, you could make it up by staying longer but make a note that you are taking a risk by travelling even now because from your own quote:

A28(2)(b)(i): If a permanent resident for less than five years, must demonstrate that they will be able to meet the residency obligation during the five-year period immediately following their becoming a permanent resident.

so if you are examined upon returning to Canada from your travels, you are a PR for less than 5 years and from what you say, you will be unable to meet the 730 days in your first 5 years as a PR so that clause applies to you if you are examined at the border.

Comment: I see the document OP 10 on PR Status Determination, if you see page 16 on Section of the Act/Regulations. Are you saying in this case A28(2)(b)(ii) would apply? In other words, By Sep 2012 my current PR card would have expired anyway and I would not risk traveling but in the meantime I will have accumulated the 730 days at some date not too far from Aug 15, 2012 and so I just stay put and DONT travel until I get my new PR card.
A28(2)(b)(ii): If a permanent resident for five years or more, must demonstrate that they have met the residency obligation during the five-year period immediately before the examination of their residency status by an officer.[/color] . So, if my application were dated say Oct 20, 2012, using the above clause the officer would examine the last 5 years going back to Oct 20, 2007. PERIOD.

Yes. If you keep reading on http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op10-eng.pdf page 7, you will see this:

For persons who have been permanent residents of Canada for more than five years, the only five-year period that can be considered in calculating whether an applicant has met the residency obligation is the one immediately before the application is received in the visa office. A28(2)(b)(ii) precludes a visa officer from examining any period other than the most recent five-year period immediately before the date of receipt of the application.
Even if a person had resided away from Canada for many years, but returned to Canada and resided there for a minimum of 730 days during the last five years, that person would comply with the residency obligation and remain a permanent resident. An officer is not permitted to consider just any five-year period in the applicant’s past, but must always assess the most recent five-year period preceding the receipt of the application.

 

[us2yow]

Going by what you said, the best I can do is to keep most work travel restricted to 2011 with little to nothing by way of travel in 2012 particularly NONE closer to August 2012. I may even stop by March 2012 if not earlier and then just stay put. Again, it's not like I am away for months on end; Not at all; It is more like 2 weeks here or 18 days there once every two months or sometimes more and that too only if I have no option;

Going by our discussion, I will stay put and avoiding traveling in 2012 and go past the Aug 15, 2012 deadline and sometime later accumulate the 730 days. I can then apply with 730 days on hand on the day I date my application, with all supporting documents on hand, and of course I will not leave until I have the new PR card on hand. The wait for the new PR card is something I have to live with. And even then if I have rightfully accumulated 730 days or more in the most recent 5 year period, my understanding is that I can show proof of travel to accelerate PR issuance. The key is I will have lived here a while as a full-time resident with SIN, Health card, and local rental credit card records etc. and NOT as someone who resides overseas but has come in to fulfill his obligations for 2 years to then leave again.

 

[Leon]

When you apply, just make sure you have at least 730 days in the 5 years previous to the date you apply and if you want to expedite, it is true you can send proof of travel to get it faster.

 

[Alabaman]

This means that if my work involves some occasional brief travel which cumulatively adds up to some- but not too glaring number of days by way of exits- .....

us2yow, one thing to think about is taking credit for time out of Canada on business. I assume from your post that you are employed in Canada and frequently travel out for work. Did you count these days towards meeting the 730 days residency obligation?

 

[us2yow]

In reference to Alabaman's comments:

I am assuming that the 'Business' credit is only if your employer in Canadian and sending you overseas on their business? Would it apply if it were still business and one could prove it with supporting documents but it was NOT a Canadian firm. Of course, for each exit which was a work related consulting trip I would include a work letter detailing reasons for trip and still ALSO include a very systematic snapshot of boarding passes and ticket to show when I left Canada and when I re-entered; (to showcase reason for leaving); This would be above and beyond info. needs, since the stamps on the passport and a scan of my PR card will indicate to them when I came in anyway;

Any comments on whether the credit is only if the employer is Canadian ? What if it is special agencies such as the UN

 

[yuqisun]

Will the five year only exam by the visa officer when we apply for the PR card? how about immigration officer in the airport?
Let's say my mom pass the first five year, and she get the new PR card. Since she stay in Canada the first two years and away for three year. when she travel in the middle of her second five year, will the airport immigration officer exam that for last five years she is not stay in Canada for two years and stop her entering Canada? My mom plan to stay in canada for the last two years of her second 5 years. Is that ok?

 

[Buletruck]

They won't stop her from entering, but they may report her for violating residency obligation. As she has renewed her PR card, your mom now has to have 730 days in the past 5 years. Based on what you say, your mom will be well out of RO if she travels in the last 2 years of her PR card and will likely be reported. She needs to have 730 days every time she enters Canada now going backwards from the date of entry.

 

[yuqisun]

the officer will not stop her entering, when she apply for new PR, we will make sure she stay in Canada for 730 days. Will she get the new PR without any problem or she will get problem that the airport officer report her violate 730 before.