Should I file for a PR card renewal ??

[Niravs200]

Have landed myself in a complicated situation with IRCC and needed some advice.

Here is my case:

2004 -> Was granted a PR.

2005 -> Left Canada

2018 -> Came back to Canada on a study permit. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004. Still received the study permit.

2019 -> Received a work permit for an internship. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004.

2020 -> Received work permit. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004.

2021 -> Applied for work permit extension and received it. My passport was expiring so I only had received 1.5 out of the 3 years of work permit I was entitled to. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004.

2021 -> Filed for Canadian experience class. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004. I was granted an invitation to apply for PR. I applied for a PR application.
2022 -> Radio Silence from IRCC.

Feb 2023 -> IRCC mentioned that my profile has been on halt for a year and I was not informed about it because of a system error. The reason for the halt was that "I was already a permanent resident". They advised me to apply for a Verification of status.

April 2023 -> Got my local MP involved. IRCC finally replied. They mentioned that they cannot grant me a PR, because I am already a PR. Also, accused me of coming to Canada on a fraudulent means. They gave me 30 days to present my defense. I had to give them a lot of proof that proved it was their negligence not fraud from my side.

August 2023 -> They put my PR application on halt. And mentioned that to get a new PR I have to renounce my older PR.

September 2023 -> I got the verification status document from IRCC which said my PR status is still active. Contacted IRCC if I can file for citizenship if I am a PR and have been in Canada for 5.5 years. They said legally I should be able to.

November 2023 -> I tried to use the verification of status to renew my health card and apply for a driving license. I was told that I could not use it as proof and that from here onwards, I would not be receiving any services from the British Columbia provincial government.

December 2023 -> I filed for Canadian citizenship.


In my current situation, I am not able to travel outside Canada or receive any benefits. I have a permanent SIN card and I am legally allowed to stay and work in Canada as per IRCC. But, I do not have any provincial benefits. Also, as I cannot get a Canadian ID I need to carry a passport around if I want to go to a bar or liquor store.

But if I apply for a PR card, they may just remove my status as a permanent resident and my citizenship application would collapse. Also, I would be forced to exit out of Canada. I am currently married to a permanent resident of Canada and can apply for a spousal visa if this occurs.

Already have a lawyer who has explained the risks associated with the PR card renewal. Ultimately I have to decide whether to file for a pr card renewal. He would of course be helping me out. But wanted to get a second opinion, in case anyone else has seen a similar case.

Would it be advisable to apply for a PR card renewal in this situation ??

 

[canuck78]

Have landed myself in a complicated situation with IRCC and needed some advice.

Here is my case:

2004 -> Was granted a PR.

2005 -> Left Canada

2018 -> Came back to Canada on a study permit. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004. Still received the study permit.

2019 -> Received a work permit for an internship. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004.

2020 -> Received work permit. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004.

2021 -> Applied for work permit extension and received it. My passport was expiring so I only had received 1.5 out of the 3 years of work permit I was entitled to. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004.

2021 -> Filed for Canadian experience class. I did disclose that I was granted a PR in 2004. I was granted an invitation to apply for PR. I applied for a PR application.
2022 -> Radio Silence from IRCC.

Feb 2023 -> IRCC mentioned that my profile has been on halt for a year and I was not informed about it because of a system error. The reason for the halt was that "I was already a permanent resident". They advised me to apply for a Verification of status.

April 2023 -> Got my local MP involved. IRCC finally replied. They mentioned that they cannot grant me a PR, because I am already a PR. Also, accused me of coming to Canada on a fraudulent means. They gave me 30 days to present my defense. I had to give them a lot of proof that proved it was their negligence not fraud from my side.

August 2023 -> They put my PR application on halt. And mentioned that to get a new PR I have to renounce my older PR.

September 2023 -> I got the verification status document from IRCC which said my PR status is still active. Contacted IRCC if I can file for citizenship if I am a PR and have been in Canada for 5.5 years. They said legally I should be able to.

November 2023 -> I tried to use the verification of status to renew my health card and apply for a driving license. I was told that I could not use it as proof and that from here onwards, I would not be receiving any services from the British Columbia provincial government.

December 2023 -> I filed for Canadian citizenship.


In my current situation, I am not able to travel outside Canada or receive any benefits. I have a permanent SIN card and I am legally allowed to stay and work in Canada as per IRCC. But, I do not have any provincial benefits. Also, as I cannot get a Canadian ID I need to carry a passport around if I want to go to a bar or liquor store.

But if I apply for a PR card, they may just remove my status as a permanent resident and my citizenship application would collapse. Also, I would be forced to exit out of Canada. I am currently married to a permanent resident of Canada and can apply for a spousal visa if this occurs.

Already have a lawyer who has explained the risks associated with the PR card renewal. Ultimately I have to decide whether to file for a pr card renewal. He would of course be helping me out. But wanted to get a second opinion, in case anyone else has seen a similar case.

Would it be advisable to apply for a PR card renewal in this situation ??

How did you inform IRCC that you were already a PR in your applications? Do you have proof that you informed IRCC that you were already a PR? Why did you apply for a study permit if you were a PR?

 

[Ponga]

I follow-up on what @canuck78 asked: How was it that you were given multiple work and study permits, if IRCC had determined that your original PR status from ~19 years ago had not been revoked or renounced? Is it just sloppiness on their part? Other than that, the rest of your timeline/story is beyond crazy and is almost worthy of a media intervention.

If you have been in Canada since ~March of 2018 (5.5 years) and your PR status is still valid, I at least agree with that part of IRCC's answers.

Good luck!

 

[Niravs200]

During the process of applying for the study permit, I consulted numerous immigration consultants and lawyers in India. They could not advise me much on the situation as the PR was fairly old. One of the solutions offered was to apply for the study permit and mention my 2004 PR. If the PR is still active my study permit will be rejected. And then I can take the next step accordingly. But, unfortunately, my study permit was approved. I was 21 old at that time and in no way an expert in Canadian immigration law. So, I acted as advised.

I still have the digital copy of the original form I submitted for all my applications. In all the forms there is a field where you have to put information about whether you have previously applied to come to Canada. I have added the information about 2004 PR over there. Moreover, my UCI number has been the same since 2004. So, the information about me being a permanent resident should have been easy to recover for them.

On the question of why did IRCC grant me different permits over the year. I can say only negligence and incompetence on their part is the reason. I only recently learned from IRCC in April 2023, that those applications were supposed to be rejected.

I have found a few more cases where that has occurred.

Here is another such case:

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/pr-expired-in-2007-applying-for-renewal-on-h-c-grounds.803189/

 

[Niravs200]

Any advise on whether I should be applying for a PR card renewal.

 

[Ponga]

Any advise on whether I should be applying for a PR card renewal.

I would say, yes. Especially if you plan to travel and return to Canada via a commercial carrier. You seem to have more than enough days in Canada [now] to satisfy the only requirement: The Residency Obligation.

 

[canuck78]

During the process of applying for the study permit, I consulted numerous immigration consultants and lawyers in India. They could not advise me much on the situation as the PR was fairly old. One of the solutions offered was to apply for the study permit and mention my 2004 PR. If the PR is still active my study permit will be rejected. And then I can take the next step accordingly. But, unfortunately, my study permit was approved. I was 21 old at that time and in no way an expert in Canadian immigration law. So, I acted as advised.

I still have the digital copy of the original form I submitted for all my applications. In all the forms there is a field where you have to put information about whether you have previously applied to come to Canada. I have added the information about 2004 PR over there. Moreover, my UCI number has been the same since 2004. So, the information about me being a permanent resident should have been easy to recover for them.

On the question of why did IRCC grant me different permits over the year. I can say only negligence and incompetence on their part is the reason. I only recently learned from IRCC in April 2023, that those applications were supposed to be rejected.

I have found a few more cases where that has occurred.

Here is another such case:

https://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/threads/pr-expired-in-2007-applying-for-renewal-on-h-c-grounds.803189/

If you have written proof that you mentioned at each application specifically that you had landed in 2004 as a PR and believed you were still a PR then it was IRCC’s negligence. Did you include proof of your landing document with your application? Did you ask IRCC to confirm whether you were still a PR when you applied for the visas/permits. You shouldn’t have needed to ask btw IRCC should have done it on their own. You could have done a VOS which could have prevented this. I still don’t understand why you applied for the visas/permits knowing you were a PR and why you didn’t verify your status.

 

[armoured]

But if I apply for a PR card, they may just remove my status as a permanent resident and my citizenship application would collapse. Also, I would be forced to exit out of Canada. I am currently married to a permanent resident of Canada and can apply for a spousal visa if this occurs.

Already have a lawyer who has explained the risks associated with the PR card renewal. Ultimately I have to decide whether to file for a pr card renewal. He would of course be helping me out. But wanted to get a second opinion, in case anyone else has seen a similar case.

Would it be advisable to apply for a PR card renewal in this situation ??

-I do not understand your lawyer's point about the PR status being at risk.
-At any rate, if you have applied for citizenship already, I do not see any scenario in which applying for a PR card would somehow put you any more at risk - if a review of your status and presence in Canada were to put you at risk, that's already going to be part of the citizenship application evaluation.
-The answer is still rather straightforward in my view: you are a PR; you entered Canada in 2018; you have remained in Canada since then. All of your days in Canada since 2019 will count towards PR residency obligation. Period.
-Again in my view, the misrepresentation/fraudulent claim against you is a red herring, and certainly if you provided evidence as you say that you disclosed that.
-The fault is entirely IRCC's anyway. You were admitted, you are a PR, and you are now compliant. PEriod.

Get your PR app in. Worst case arguably is that they revoke (which I think can't happen as you'd clearly win an appeal), and then you apply for spousal sponsorship.

Actually the worst case is that they delay interminably. I'd get the PR app in early and as soon as feasible, have your lawyer start sending demand letters (first stage of 'writ of mandamus', your lawyer will know what that means), say 60 days after you apply.

Someone here will say mandamus won't work, because too early. And that is true. But mandamus will get the IRCC lawyers involved, which costs them money, and embarrassment - i.e. it's quite likely the lawyers will tell someone in strongly worded terms that the mistake is IRCC's fault, and they need to bite the bullet and issue you the docs.

BTW: I do not know or understand BC's rules on health care and all that - they are known for being more strict than other provinces, BUT I recall they compensate that by possibly being a bit more lenient for family members of PRs. (It's possible this is mostly about kids). In other words, the question you could try asking is could you qualify for these things as the spouse of a PR in country legally, rather than on basis of your own PR status. It's a bit of a stretch but stranger things have happened.

 

[Niravs200]

If you have written proof that you mentioned at each application specifically that you had landed in 2004 as a PR and believed you were still a PR then it was IRCC’s negligence. Did you include proof of your landing document with your application? Did you ask IRCC to confirm whether you were still a PR when you applied for the visas/permits. You shouldn’t have needed to ask btw IRCC should have done it on their own. You could have done a VOS which could have prevented this. I still don’t understand why you applied for the visas/permits knowing you were a PR and why you didn’t verify your status.

I did not include the landing documents in my applications. But the information of me receiving a PR in 2004 was mentioned.

After coming to Canada I contacted IRCC multiple times over the years. Probably at least once before making any application. Many times my questions were related to my 2004 PR. I was indicated that the PR is fairly old and nothing could be done about it. Not once was I mentioned that I should not have received a study permit or any other visa in the first place. I only learned that after 1.5 years of applying for a new PR.

I did not even know the existence of VOS till this year. I have talked to VFS Global, the border immigration officer, and the IRCC representative accessed via their hotline. Nobody mentioned anything about a VOS. Otherwise, I would not have waited for 5.5 years or paid full fees as an international student.

Slight fault was even on my side, as I blindly followed what my peers were doing at the time. I should have hired a lawyer from the beginning only. But, being an international student with finite financial resources, hiring an expensive lawyer was the last thing on my mind.

 

[armoured]

Slight fault was even on my side, as I blindly followed what my peers were doing at the time. I should have hired a lawyer from the beginning only. But, being an international student with finite financial resources, hiring an expensive lawyer was the last thing on my mind.

A few additional thoughts: you need to consider IRCC's institutional perspective (if only to understand where their comments come from), that the 'correct' way to return to Canada would have been to apply for a PR travel document - a process by which there is a significant chance would have been refused, resulting in loss of PR status. (Because you were not in compliance with RO and had been absent from Canada for ~14 years).

Now that doesn't make you 'wrong' or guilty of misrepresentation, as they've implied - IF (as you say you did) you disclosed when you applied for student visa that you were a PR in the past. (They can't claim you hid it) [Honestly they can't claim you hid it if you ended up with the same UCI#, that baffles me, but perhaps I misunderstood] It should also be apparent that if you had some complicated idea of returning as a PR, or that you were still a PR, you'd have tried to pay domestic student rates and not ... applied to become a PR.

[It was of course their mistake or poor systems that allowed them to miss this. I believe they changed systems in early 2000s and ... it didn't go as well as it should have. Yours is not the only case.]

That said: I'm forced to recognize and admit that there IS another path for you, two in fact, and you have to choose between which of the at least three options is preferable for you. And you have to choose between them in conditions of uncertainty, i.e. it is difficult to know actually which is best. One of them is actually exclusive from the other two (or at least can't be pursued in parallel).

1) Let's call this option 'toughing it out'. That is, keeping your citizenship app in the hopper (and also applying for PR card, etc). The positive side is that you'd get citizenship directly, not 'just' PR status. (Not that there's anything wrong with PR status). The downside is that this option is that you can't pursue this one at the same as the others (you are not eligible to apply to become a PR if you are already a PR) - AND the amount of time it might take to get this resolved could be longer than the other two options, and in the meantime you will or may have continuing issues with healthcare, ID and other services. (It could also be quick to get the PR card, but ... we don't know and probably not).

[As I've said I don't personally think there are any serious chances you'd lose your PR status, or be at risk for the misrepresentation charge ... but I'm not a lawyer and I could be wrong. Just as importantly, even if I'm 'right', there is a possibility - I think low but again I could be wrong - that government goes down that route and you'd have to appeal and all that, with the attendant hassle, time lost, and expense.]

2) Renounce your current PR status and advise IRCC to proceed with processing your existing PR application. That might actually be quite quick - don't know. You'd be 'starting over' from the perspective of acquiring citizenship. There may be some uncertainty about how long because it's sat for a while, but perhaps not. It is possible that this would be the fastest route to getting you 'regularized.'

In this sense, the suggestion from IRCC that you renounce and proceed with that PR app was not 'wrong.'

3) Renounce your PR and start a spousal PR app. Also starting over for citizenship. If you live with your spouse, might take between 4-12 months. In theory you'd get access to a work permit in due course, and possibly access to health care etc (don't know about how BC approaches that). Low risk of refusal as long as relationship genuine/ no criminality.

These last two can be pursued in parallel, only downside to doing both at the same time is cost and paperwork.

Now, I think you're 'right' about your current PR status and it appeals strongly to me to insist upon your rights and proceed straight to citizenship, etc. But timing in particular is uncertain and that's linked to other things like healthcare, which is at minimum uncomfortable. I'd understand if you preferred to go one of those other routes - you have to make a practical choice based on your own interests.

Good luck, and it's actually not an easy decision, depends on your circumstances, preferences, and tolerance for uncertainty. Let others know how it goes.

 

[canuck78]

I did not include the landing documents in my applications. But the information of me receiving a PR in 2004 was mentioned.

After coming to Canada I contacted IRCC multiple times over the years. Probably at least once before making any application. Many times my questions were related to my 2004 PR. I was indicated that the PR is fairly old and nothing could be done about it. Not once was I mentioned that I should not have received a study permit or any other visa in the first place. I only learned that after 1.5 years of applying for a new PR.

I did not even know the existence of VOS till this year. I have talked to VFS Global, the border immigration officer, and the IRCC representative accessed via their hotline. Nobody mentioned anything about a VOS. Otherwise, I would not have waited for 5.5 years or paid full fees as an international student.

Slight fault was even on my side, as I blindly followed what my peers were doing at the time. I should have hired a lawyer from the beginning only. But, being an international student with finite financial resources, hiring an expensive lawyer was the last thing on my mind.

You will need to review how you worded being a PR. If you indicated that you were a PR in 2004 and are applying for study permit in 2018 it was likely assumed that you meant you were previously a PR and lost status. Calling the IRCC hotline is a basic customer service line that provides at best basic information but often incorrect. They are not visa officers. Saying you received information by phone does not provide any proof. Do you have written correspondence like emails asking about your PR status. Still believe IRCC is at fault. How you want to pursue partially depends on whether you want to pay a lawyer up to multiple thousand dollars. That would probably settle things faster. If not get VOS and then apply for citizenship and wait. Would also apply for PR card renewal if you want to get MSP as fast as possible.

 

[canuck78]

-I do not understand your lawyer's point about the PR status being at risk.
-At any rate, if you have applied for citizenship already, I do not see any scenario in which applying for a PR card would somehow put you any more at risk - if a review of your status and presence in Canada were to put you at risk, that's already going to be part of the citizenship application evaluation.
-The answer is still rather straightforward in my view: you are a PR; you entered Canada in 2018; you have remained in Canada since then. All of your days in Canada since 2019 will count towards PR residency obligation. Period.
-Again in my view, the misrepresentation/fraudulent claim against you is a red herring, and certainly if you provided evidence as you say that you disclosed that.
-The fault is entirely IRCC's anyway. You were admitted, you are a PR, and you are now compliant. PEriod.

Get your PR app in. Worst case arguably is that they revoke (which I think can't happen as you'd clearly win an appeal), and then you apply for spousal sponsorship.

Actually the worst case is that they delay interminably. I'd get the PR app in early and as soon as feasible, have your lawyer start sending demand letters (first stage of 'writ of mandamus', your lawyer will know what that means), say 60 days after you apply.

Someone here will say mandamus won't work, because too early. And that is true. But mandamus will get the IRCC lawyers involved, which costs them money, and embarrassment - i.e. it's quite likely the lawyers will tell someone in strongly worded terms that the mistake is IRCC's fault, and they need to bite the bullet and issue you the docs.

BTW: I do not know or understand BC's rules on health care and all that - they are known for being more strict than other provinces, BUT I recall they compensate that by possibly being a bit more lenient for family members of PRs. (It's possible this is mostly about kids). In other words, the question you could try asking is could you qualify for these things as the spouse of a PR in country legally, rather than on basis of your own PR status. It's a bit of a stretch but stranger things have happened.

One has to consider the likely 4-5k+ involved which may not be an option for people.

 

[armoured]

One has to consider the likely 4-5k+ involved which may not be an option for people.

I think one must consider making clear what one is talking about.

As for lawyer's fees: entirely optional in this case (which I think was clear from my post, but if not, fair point).

However I'd note: mandamus fees should be discussed with lawyer. Apart from being optional, should be possible to agree with lawyer staged fees (eg pay for demand letter and not pay for/not pursue subsequent steps unless agreed).

Because demand letter is arguably most important step in this.

 

[canuck78]

I think one must consider making clear what one is talking about.

As for lawyer's fees: entirely optional in this case (which I think was clear from my post, but if not, fair point).

However I'd note: mandamus fees should be discussed with lawyer. Apart from being optional, should be possible to agree with lawyer staged fees (eg pay for demand letter and not pay for/not pursue subsequent steps unless agreed).

Because demand letter is arguably most important step in this.

Agree but also think most lawyers will not suggest a staged billing process and ask for the 4-5k+ to take the case. Most are only family with asking for the writ of mandamus and not the specifics. There also seems to be quite a lot of upcharging for the writ of mandamus perhaps because many are desperate for a resolution to their file. We’ve seen many post about paying closer to 10k. This should really be able to be resolved without involving lawyers especially at this point. VOS and applying for PR card renewal and citizenship would also be a good and inexpensive option. IRCC doesn’t seem to be actively trying to deny their PR status.

 

[armoured]

Agree but also think most lawyers will not suggest a staged billing process and ask for the 4-5k+ to take the case. Most are only family with asking for the writ of mandamus and not the specifics. There also seems to be quite a lot of upcharging for the writ of mandamus perhaps because many are desperate for a resolution to their file. We’ve seen many post about paying closer to 10k.

Reasonable points that begin from missing the point, which is implying that the legal aspect was central to the approach. It is not.

This should really be able to be resolved without involving lawyers especially at this point. VOS and applying for PR card renewal and citizenship would also be a good and inexpensive option. IRCC doesn’t seem to be actively trying to deny their PR status.

Exactly. And hence, would be better communication to underline this point first, and that mandamus / legal costs may be bringing a Gatling gun to a knife fight - expensive, unwieldy, and possibly unnecessary. Or that jumping to discussion of specific costs (even if prohibitive) risks muddying the waters.