Ray of Hope 109th draw

[Ovcar]

And again you are mistaken:

Lets take it step by step:
1. you are assessed using this manual.
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/permanent-residence/express-entry/assessing-electronic-application-on-section-a11-2.html
2. From that manual you know that you must prove, you must prove to meet CRS criteria for your draw and to maintain it until your E-AOR (until you will send out your application).
3. Your family members are still your family members regardless if they are accompanying you or not, so the exception of not recalculating points if they change their heart in the middle of the process does not apply.
4. Officer is also checking your application for misinterpretation.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/section-40.html
5. Misinterpretation is also:
for directly or indirectly misrepresenting or withholding material facts relating to a relevant matter that induces or could induce an error in the administration of this Act;
So in case of non accompanying spouse withholding information about true intentions of your spouse (to apply for sponsorship the moment you land and of course always having intention to immigrate). Of course with that lower score with your spouse you would be never able to get invitation for that round, so in other words by making your spouse non accompanying you claim points you should not. So at the end it would produce an error to approve an application that should have been declined.
6. If this double intention is discovered during your application, you can smooth talk yourself out of misinterpretation, but not out of points recalculation.

So yes what you discuss just for the sake to get ITA is a fraud and illegal.

I have tried and could not find any point in the links you provided that mention anything about this case of alleged misrepresentation.

In my opinion, it is perfectly legal to leave out your spouse from your application in order to have a higher score. You are not misrepresenting anything, because she is really not accompanying.

Whether you will be able to sponsor her or him in two-year time depends on how successful you will be in Canada and as far as I know the process is really cumbersome in practice and time-consuming. I personally opted out of this and enrolled in Masters studies because of difficulties associated with this path.

Furthermore, there were many cases where people got married after receiving ITA and did not suffer from score reduction eventhough their intentions were far more suspicious. However, that path required genuine proofs such as wedding ceremonies photos and many other things.

Regards

 

[mdilushi]

I have tried and could not find any point in the links you provided that mention anything about this case of alleged misrepresentation.

In my opinion, it is perfectly legal to leave out your spouse from your application in order to have a higher score. You are not misrepresenting anything, because she is really not accompanying.

Whether you will be able to sponsor her or him in two-year time depends on how successful you will be in Canada and as far as I know the process is really cumbersome in practice and time-consuming. I personally opted out of this and enrolled in Masters studies because of difficulties associated with this path.

Furthermore, there were many cases where people got married after receiving ITA and did not suffer from score reduction eventhough their intentions were far more suspicious. However, that path required genuine proofs such as wedding ceremonies photos and many other things.

Regards

The link might not say it is illegal. But as per IRPA misrepresentation can be any form of thing. If she is not accompanying, yes, it is not illegal. But you need to mention her details in your application. But immigration officer might be concerned why your wife is not accompanying. If you are found to be misrepresenting info, that is not a good thing.

Though people get marry after ITA , those relationships are carefully evaluated. They don't just allowed PR. They mind every single detail.

 

[thaitran26291]

Hi All

will we still expect next draw a high of 445+ ?

P/s : Let assume it has been a total of 5 weeks ( from Dec 19 to Jan 23 ), and those people sitting at 445-448 are increasing, not to mention new 448+ candidates .

 

[mdilushi]

Hi All

will we still expect next draw a high of 445+ ?

P/s : Let assume it has been a total of 5 weeks ( from Dec 19 to Jan 23 ), and those people sitting at 445-448 are increasing, not to mention new 448+ candidates .

Though # of candidates increased, they will prioritise the ones who registered first

 

[peacefulwarrior]

Posting this on behalf of a friend.

He went to Canada on a work permit (ICT) in November. He took the medical test for the work permit on 15th June 2018.

Now He received ITA on 19th December 2018 and collecting all the required docs at the moment. Should he get medicals redone or the old medical test acknowledgment would work?

PS: He tried calling IRCC but did not get reply.

@SithLord @abhishek_89 and others please help.

 

[nns14]

what is the minimum CSR would you except the in next two draw?

I am not a predictor but I believe:

23/01 Draw Cut off: 444
06/02 Draw Cut off: 441 or 442

 

[SithLord]

Posting this on behalf of a friend.

He went to Canada on a work permit (ICT) in November. He took the medical test for the work permit on 15th June 2018.

Now He received ITA on 19th December 2018 and collecting all the required docs at the moment. Should he get medicals redone or the old medical test acknowledgment would work?

PS: He tried calling IRCC but did not get reply.

@SithLord @abhishek_89 and others please help.

How long is that medicals valid? I think he may have to end up retaking medicals again since it is only valid for a year. By the time he gets his PPR and passport stamped, it will probably be expired

 

[samikdg]

Anyone got OINP NOI after the last draw? Have they started sending NOIs under HCP?

 

[zabrodov]

And again you are mistaken:

Lets take it step by step:
1. you are assessed using this manual.
https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/corporate/publications-manuals/operational-bulletins-manuals/permanent-residence/express-entry/assessing-electronic-application-on-section-a11-2.html
2. From that manual you know that you must prove, you must prove to meet CRS criteria for your draw and to maintain it until your E-AOR (until you will send out your application).
3. Your family members are still your family members regardless if they are accompanying you or not, so the exception of not recalculating points if they change their heart in the middle of the process does not apply.
4. Officer is also checking your application for misinterpretation.
https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/I-2.5/section-40.html
5. Misinterpretation is also:
for directly or indirectly misrepresenting or withholding material facts relating to a relevant matter that induces or could induce an error in the administration of this Act;
So in case of non accompanying spouse withholding information about true intentions of your spouse (to apply for sponsorship the moment you land and of course always having intention to immigrate). Of course with that lower score with your spouse you would be never able to get invitation for that round, so in other words by making your spouse non accompanying you claim points you should not. So at the end it would produce an error to approve an application that should have been declined.
6. If this double intention is discovered during your application, you can smooth talk yourself out of misinterpretation, but not out of points recalculation.

So yes what you discuss just for the sake to get ITA is a fraud and illegal.

You would be right if we were discussing the case of misrepresentation in which an applicant comes up with a random untrue reason for his/her spouse not accompanying.

What I am saying is that there is no law that forbids an applicant to put his/her spouse as non-accompanying and to state a real reason, which is lack of points. It's not misrepresentation. I was unable to find any applicable law or even a guideline that would describe how an immigration officer has to evaluate the reasoning for a non-accompanying family member. I don't think it's a violation of the law to state any reason for a non-accompanying family member as long as it's true.

What you rightfully mentioned is that your family members are still your family members and that the points will be recalculated if a spouse changes his/her mind during the process. However, if the spouse stays as non-accompanying throughout the entire immigration process, then there is no basis for the recalculation of the points for the primary applicant.

 

[vensak]

You would be right if we were discussing the case of misrepresentation in which an applicant comes up with a random untrue reason for his/her spouse not accompanying.

What I am saying is that there is no law that forbids an applicant to put his/her spouse as non-accompanying and to state a real reason, which is lack of points. It's not misrepresentation. I was unable to find any applicable law or even a guideline that would describe how an immigration officer has to evaluate the reasoning for a non-accompanying family member. I don't think it's a violation of the law to state any reason for a non-accompanying family member as long as it's true.

What you rightfully mentioned is that your family members are still your family members and that the points will be recalculated if a spouse changes his/her mind during the process. However, if the spouse stays as non-accompanying throughout the entire immigration process, then there is no basis for the recalculation of the points for the primary applicant.

what I am saying is that having a legit reasons why not to accompany you in Canada is ok. Also I would say (and this is my opinion) for long term reasons and not for a short ones that can be resolved.

What is not OK is to make your spouse non accompanying just for the sake to get more points. That alone is a fraud.
Why? Because we are talking about competition. So where other spouses do learn language or get their diplomas assessed, you will just simply put her non accompanying.
It is the same thing as if you got a letter stating work experience in NOC in which you did not get it, getting fake university diploma or being able to cheat during the language exam (this is I guess extremely rare).

There is a reason why there is app. 5-10% of all points penalization for your spouse.
it is most difficult for people with combination of little to no language skills and just basic education to be able to succeed in Canada. So if that is the case you need to prove that you are so exceptional, that you can take care for both (Master degree + language + work experience + age or to get PNP).

You should also be aware, that if there will be a high rising trend of non accompanying spouses, that can lead to more scrutiny of real reasons behind such decision.

 

[zabrodov]

what I am saying is that having a legit reasons why not to accompany you in Canada is ok. Also I would say (and this is my opinion) for long term reasons and not for a short ones that can be resolved.

What is not OK is to make your spouse non accompanying just for the sake to get more points. That alone is a fraud.
Why? Because we are talking about competition. So where other spouses do learn language or get their diplomas assessed, you will just simply put her non accompanying.
It is the same thing as if you got a letter stating work experience in NOC in which you did not get it, getting fake university diploma or being able to cheat during the language exam (this is I guess extremely rare).

There is a reason why there is app. 5-10% of all points penalization for your spouse.
it is most difficult for people with combination of little to no language skills and just basic education to be able to succeed in Canada. So if that is the case you need to prove that you are so exceptional, that you can take care for both (Master degree + language + work experience + age or to get PNP).

You should also be aware, that if there will be a high rising trend of non accompanying spouses, that can lead to more scrutiny of real reasons behind such decision.

It's not fraud as long as you state the true reason. That's simple: your spouse is accompanying but not enough qualified - your points decrease. Your spouse is non-accompanying, therefore you are assessed alone and your points increase but you have pay for it by not being able to reunite with you spouse for at least a year. There is no fraud. I believe you are confusing legal issue with ethical issue. What you are describing has a lot to do with ethics, but it's not legally supported as there is no guideline that defines what is a right and what is a wrong reason. The operation manual doesn't even mention anything about the reasons for non-accompanying family members.

Ethically it is wrong but it doesn't mean it's illegal. Let me give you an example. Is it ethically right to fire an employee because you don't like his/her tastes in music? Probably not.
Is it ethical to fire an employee just because you have a bad mood? I don't think so.
Is it ethically right to fire an employee because you suspected he/she stole something but you had no proof and then after you fired a person, it turned out that your accusations were wrong? Definitely not.

Does it mean that those cases are illegal? Well, under the US employment law, for example, (Employment at will), they are perfectly legal.

We could have gone ahead and tried to find out why CIC decided to allow married applicants choose the way of calculating their points instead of just giving all married applicants points for them and their spouses regardless of the spouses accompanying or not accompanying, but it would have been a mere speculation.

The most important question is if it is illegal to utilize this opportunity regardless of the reasons? If there is no law or instruction for the officers that is based on the law that forbids this approach, I think legally an applicant would be fine provided that he/she states the true reason. Ethically? Maybe not. However, it's not illegal to be a jerk

 

[mark12345680]

So apparently, OINP doesn’t look at only new profiles created in 2019. They go way back to profiles that are almost a year old

 

[vensak]

It's not fraud as long as you state the true reason. That's simple: your spouse is accompanying but not enough qualified - your points decrease. Your spouse is non-accompanying, therefore you are assessed alone and your points increase but you have pay for it by not being able to reunite with you spouse for at least a year. There is no fraud. I believe you are confusing legal issue with ethical issue. What you are describing has a lot to do with ethics, but it's not legally supported as there is no guideline that defines what is a right and what is a wrong reason. The operation manual doesn't even mention anything about the reasons for non-accompanying family members.

Ethically it is wrong but it doesn't mean it's illegal. Let me give you an example. Is it ethically right to fire an employee because you don't like his/her tastes in music? Probably not.
Is it ethical to fire an employee just because you have a bad mood? I don't think so.
Is it ethically right to fire an employee because you suspected he/she stole something but you had no proof and then after you fired a person, it turned out that your accusations were wrong? Definitely not.

Does it mean that those cases are illegal? Well, under the US employment law, for example, (Employment at will), they are perfectly legal.

We could have gone ahead and tried to find out why CIC decided to allow married applicants choose the way of calculating their points instead of just giving all married applicants points for them and their spouses regardless of the spouses accompanying or not accompanying, but it would have been a mere speculation.

The most important question is if it is illegal to utilize this opportunity regardless of the reasons? If there is no law or instruction for the officers that is based on the law that forbids this approach, I think legally an applicant would be fine. Ethically? Maybe not. However, it's not illegal to be a jerk

Again it is a fraud to hide fact or to use false facts in order to get through. We are not speaking about just ethics here. It is misinterpretation.
The same thing would happen if you were applying for a PNP without any intention to live there and you were caught by that lie. That is the same thing - misinterpretation.
So just because some people were not caught it will not make it less of a fraud. Meaning, if you will be caught, there will be consequences.

The reason why you get some points for spouses is as I have repeated several times, to ensure that your spouse is also ready to live in Canada. Yes it is not ideal, but something had to be chosen in order to give somewhat objective measurement of potential. And that is the education points and language skills (plus Canadian connection work, study, family). That is to ensure that the second person that took practically a free ride with you, should be able to manage well.

Compared to that your loved one can be a total Dufus and a complete illiterate, yet it will have right to apply for spousal sponsorship.
You can feel offended, but that is the reality of immigration law when it comes to spousal sponsorship. Nobody checks the "quality" of imported people. And of course they can not, because that would be seen as a discrimination of a free choice whom you want to marry (be in common law with). Yes there is medical checks and PCC, however that will say absolutely nothing about what potential does your spouse have.

I know very well how frustrating is to have somebody at home, that does not speak local language, and because of lack of education he or she is not employable. It ends up in a rather vicious circle, where you need to babysit that person at least partially, while he or she will close up refusing to connect with his / her new country. And that is even more dangerous if there is a convenient community of the same language speakers.

 

[vensak]

It's not fraud as long as you state the true reason. That's simple: your spouse is accompanying but not enough qualified - your points decrease. Your spouse is non-accompanying, therefore you are assessed alone and your points increase but you have pay for it by not being able to reunite with you spouse for at least a year. There is no fraud. I believe you are confusing legal issue with ethical issue. What you are describing has a lot to do with ethics, but it's not legally supported as there is no guideline that defines what is a right and what is a wrong reason. The operation manual doesn't even mention anything about the reasons for non-accompanying family members.

Ethically it is wrong but it doesn't mean it's illegal. Let me give you an example. Is it ethically right to fire an employee because you don't like his/her tastes in music? Probably not.
Is it ethical to fire an employee just because you have a bad mood? I don't think so.
Is it ethically right to fire an employee because you suspected he/she stole something but you had no proof and then after you fired a person, it turned out that your accusations were wrong? Definitely not.

Does it mean that those cases are illegal? Well, under the US employment law, for example, (Employment at will), they are perfectly legal.

We could have gone ahead and tried to find out why CIC decided to allow married applicants choose the way of calculating their points instead of just giving all married applicants points for them and their spouses regardless of the spouses accompanying or not accompanying, but it would have been a mere speculation.

The most important question is if it is illegal to utilize this opportunity regardless of the reasons? If there is no law or instruction for the officers that is based on the law that forbids this approach, I think legally an applicant would be fine provided that he/she states the true reason. Ethically? Maybe not. However, it's not illegal to be a jerk

ok just so you know depending on a country the work law is different. And the examples you have described above would be illegal under such laws.
I would even say that your reasons above are illegal according to laws in at least several states in USA, but just might not be aware of it. It is more about the game if the employee will go after it or not.

What does it tell to you, well you need to check what is legal and what is a fraud according to the law that applies to the case and not according what you think is still ok.
And no, lack of knowledge of the law is unfortunately no excuse.

What does happen in reality, if the amount of abuse is rather low, officers might be more lenient when it comes to accepting your reasons for reasons in order to get away with it.
If that trend will go up however, all the mild approach would end.

Of course nobody can stop you to put your spouse non accompanying, but do not be surprise if that risk will not pay off.

 

[cousinsEE]

My friend got a NOI from Ontario today. His points in express is 448. I told him he had 45 days to respond and as such i suggest he waits to see if he will be invited in the Next draw from IRCC. I think he will receive ITA in the next draw.