Questions on renewing a PR Card whilst living outside

[canadauk1]

Hi

I'm looking to renew my PR card in the next few months using the history from Jun 2011 to Jun 2016. Here's my general history:
Jun 2011 - Apr 2012 - Still living and working in UK. But came back to Canada a few times
Apr 2012 - Jun 2013 - Living in Canada
Jun 2013 - Present - back living in UK but accompanying a Canadian citizen family member (my wife). So I meet the PR obligation.

Currently filling in the form IMM5444E to renew

During the periods I was in the UK, (before and after the main Canadian stint), I went back to Canada a couple of times (each visit max of 1-2 weeks) but my main employment and address was really in the UK. I've captured these Canadian visits via the TRAVEL HISTORY section (indirectly, by actually showing the time outside of Canada) but do I also need to capture each Canadian visit via the 19. ADDRESS HISTORY and 20. WORK HISTORY sections? During these times, it was mostly visiting my wife's family

Thanks

 

[spyfy]

You cannot apply for a PR Card when you live outside Canada, even if you are living with a Canadian spouse and therefore fulfill the residency requirement.

Instead, you can apply for a multi-entry Permanent Resident Travel Document. See here:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/applications/guides/5529ETOC.asp#5529E7
"Travel document counterfoils are normally issued for a single entry to Canada. If you meet the residency obligation but are residing outside of Canada on a long-term basis (for example, if you are a permanent resident accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse), you may want to request a long-term multiple entry travel document. To do so, you should include a cover letter explaining your circumstances and requesting a multiple entry travel document. These can be issued for up to five years but cannot extend beyond the expiry date of your passport."

For instance, you can't fill out this item in the PR Card application: "12. Your current residential address in Canada".
--> You have to apply for a PRTD. So you would have to use a different form altogether.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi

I'm looking to renew my PR card in the next few months using the history from Jun 2011 to Jun 2016. Here's my general history:
Jun 2011 - Apr 2012 - Still living and working in UK. But came back to Canada a few times
Apr 2012 - Jun 2013 - Living in Canada
Jun 2013 - Present - back living in UK but accompanying a Canadian citizen family member (my wife). So I meet the PR obligation.

Currently filling in the form IMM5444E to renew

During the periods I was in the UK, (before and after the main Canadian stint), I went back to Canada a couple of times (each visit max of 1-2 weeks) but my main employment and address was really in the UK. I've captured these Canadian visits via the TRAVEL HISTORY section (indirectly, by actually showing the time outside of Canada) but do I also need to capture each Canadian visit via the 19. ADDRESS HISTORY and 20. WORK HISTORY sections? During these times, it was mostly visiting my wife's family

Thanks

Short answer: I concur in the post by spyfy.

There is a recent discussion here initiated by someone in a very similar circumstance, who had concerns about the PR TD application process, but discovered it was relatively easy and quick, and the person reporting indicated receiving a PR TD good for two & a half years (probably based on expiration date of passport). I wanted to quote and link but at a glance I could not put my mouse on that discussion.

Reminder: PR card is merely evidence of PR status, not necessary for PR status. More like a passport (which expires but has no effect on one's citizenship) than a Drivers' license (which requires renewal, and if it expires without being renewed that means the status of licensed driver is expired).



A longer explanation:

In general, at least for the previous many years under Conservative leadership, the government's view has been that a PR in your situation should obtain a PR Travel Document for the purpose of traveling to Canada, and not obtain a new/renewed/replacement PR card until you have relocated to live in Canada.

That is the government's preference. The statutory and regulatory provisions do not allow the government to specifically or strictly enforce it this way (IRCC cannot deny issuance of PR card on grounds PR is outside Canada while application is in process). You are required, however, to make the application from within Canada and most likely will be required to personally pick-up the replacement card IF one is issued.

For a time there was an operational bulletin which prescribed that cards could only be mailed to the individual's actual residential address, and similarly that notices to pick up the PR card must be delivered to the PR's actual residential address (not to a representative's address; not to "mailing" address). I do not know what the current practices are in this regard.

Many PRs in situations similar to yours fudged their address, using a close friend or family member's Canadian address as their residential address. Despite how easy it is to get away with this, and despite the extent to which many in the past have indeed sailed through easily this way, it is nonetheless not a good idea. There is little or nothing to gain since you do not need a PR card to keep your PR status intact, and you should be able to obtain a PR Travel Document which is good for multiple trips to Canada and for a period of years.

Best practice is to be entirely honest and accurate in any application to IRCC, including in particular an application to replace a PR card; but yes, for someone in your situation this would likely cause problems in the processing or deliver of the card. PR TD is the preferred alternative.

Thus, for example, if you elect to proceed with the PR card application, for your address history be fully honest about where you maintained your primary residence. Likewise as to employment. One does not ordinarily change their residence for a three week holiday.

When you apply for either, be sure to include proof of marriage (marriage certificate), proof of spouse's citizenship (copy of passport should do, which needs to be submitted anyway with PR TD application, but copy of citizenship certificate is primary proof of citizenship), and proof of cohabitation (no need to go overboard, but at least some documentation to show living together).



Source:

More or less by the way, the policy is largely based on an interpretation and application of IRPA Regulations 55 and 56 (see http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/regulations/SOR-2002-227/page-11.html#h-27 which also prescribes what must be included in the application).

The IRPA Regulation Section 55 prescribes that a PR card can only be provided or issued in Canada. Subsection 56.(2) prescribes that the application "must be made in Canada."

CIC (as in under Conservative leadership) interpreted this to mean the PR must be in Canada at the time of making the application for the replacement/renewal card. Moreover, it is highly unlikely IRCC will mail the card, but rather will require a pick-up in person.

So far there is no indication that IRCC (CIC's new name under Liberal leadership) has changed this approach.

 

[canadauk1]

Thanks for the replies, yes completely understood that whilst outside of Canada, I cannot apply. But as you said, as part as a trip to Canada, I was planning on applying whilst inside and using my family's address.

For the PR Travel Document, I was under the impression that I would need a TD PER visit so potentially multiple applications? Would that not flag issues in itself if I am constantly applying for TDs?

Thanks

 

[Ponga]

Some people are also notified that they must pick up their card at a local office (in Canada), which would be difficult for someone outside of Canada to do.

 

[Leon]

Thanks for the replies, yes completely understood that whilst outside of Canada, I cannot apply. But as you said, as part as a trip to Canada, I was planning on applying whilst inside and using my family's address.

For the PR Travel Document, I was under the impression that I would need a TD PER visit so potentially multiple applications? Would that not flag issues in itself if I am constantly applying for TDs?

Thanks

You can apply for a PR card renewal while in Canada if you want to. According to ENF27, see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/ they can not solely refuse your application based on you not being in Canada. You do however have to be clear that you do not live in Canada and that your address given is a mailing address by friends or family and you have to be ready to come and pick up your PR card in Canada if they ask you to.

Here's what ENF27 has to say on this issue:

R56(2) states clearly that a PRC application must be made in Canada. Furthermore, the PRC must be delivered in person to each applicant, pursuant to R58(3), and be picked up within 180 days of the person receiving notification that it is ready for collection. This enhances the integrity of the application process, allowing the local office to contact the client to review documentation and assess residency issues in person. However, it is recognized that the Regulations do not specify physical presence in Canada for purposes of filing a PRC application. Applications cannot be refused solely on the basis of evidence that the applicant was not in Canada when the application was filed. However, applicants are expected to provide an address in Canada where they may be contacted to provide additional information or to present themselves in person for the purposes of reviewing either identification or eligibility for the PRC. The CPC may refer a case to a local IRCC office if all or part of the application originated from outside Canada, and if there are questions as to the client’s identity, status or residency history, or the authenticity of the documentation. Clients must report in person to pick up their PRC in Canada, in accordance with R58(3).

The possibility of your application being transferred to a local office is always there, even if you do live in Canada. Basically happens if they are not sure that you meet the RO and can delay the processing quite a lot.

However, as immigration does not seem to like the idea of PR's doing this and they have given you an option to apply for a multiple entry TD, then why not just do that?

 

[canadauk1]

The application of a PR Travel Document looks very similar to a PR renewal so I guess I thought it was more efficient to do the PR renewal rather than the TD each time.

The multiple entry TD is new to me, thought it was one per visit? http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/information/travel-document/

Update: Having read and Googled some more, looks like you can ask for a longer term PR TD but from earlier forum posts, most people were only able to get 6-12 months:
http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/permanent-resident-abroad-with-valid-travel-document-t240830.0.html

So that would mean if I dont get a longer TD, I would need to apply the PR TD every time which looks just as time consuming and requires just as much documentation as a PR renewal form.

Would be good to hear from people that have applied for a multi-year, mult-entry PR TD as they sound like a huge rarity?

 

[dpenabill]

There have been few reports from PRs in this situation. You are correct to observe it is inconvenient. But the purpose of PR status is explicitly for residing in Canada. And generally PRs must live in Canada at least enough to meet a very generous PR Residency Obligation. The current law allows an exception, and it is indeed an exception, for PRs accompanying a Canadian citizen spouse abroad because of another policy, which is to facilitate the unification of families.

For PRs with visa-exempt passports (assuming this is your situation), in the past this was no problem, since as a matter of practice PRs with visa-exempt passports could just board a flight to Canada using their visa-exempt passport. This practice is coming to an end (or has already ended). Thus, relatively recently there has been more interest in this issue.

Not only is the process inconvenient, but it also costs money. Just the fee for the PR TD is (as I recall) $50.00 CAD. Many times the process is done by mail, and there are courier fees. And so on.

Whether or not IRCC will make some further adjustments to better accommodate PRs in similar circumstances I do not know. It does seem rather incongruous that a PR who is in compliance with the PR RO has to go through a process to travel to Canada that is almost as onerous as a getting a visa to visit Canada (albeit the difference is that IRCC has discretion to deny visas, but must issue a PR in good standing a PR TD upon proper application), and decidedly more onerous than what is required for a Foreign National with a visa-exempt passport.

 

[canadauk1]

After much searching, I finally found few people that had a PR TD for longer than a year so guess this is an option I should probably look into as well.

One thing though that is not made clear in the PR TD checklist or guidance is around the state of the documents you include in regards to originals or photocopies: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/forms/IMM5627E.pdf

Preference is prob photocopies as it has less risk but I assume at a minimum, I have to send my ORIGINAL passport to get the PR TD added in it. But for PR card, marriage cert, wife's birth cert and all other documents, can I send copies?

 

[dpenabill]

After much searching, I finally found few people that had a PR TD for longer than a year so guess this is an option I should probably look into as well.

One thing though that is not made clear in the PR TD checklist or guidance is around the state of the documents you include in regards to originals or photocopies: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/pdf/kits/forms/IMM5627E.pdf

Preference is prob photocopies as it has less risk but I assume at a minimum, I have to send my ORIGINAL passport to get the PR TD added in it. But for PR card, marriage cert, wife's birth cert and all other documents, can I send copies?

Main thing is to follow the instructions as best you can. These are always subject to change, and do indeed periodically change.

Last I looked, the instructions indicate if and when a document must be an original, and otherwise you submit copies. That is, if it does not specify a document should be the original, usually that means submit copies.

I do not recall which originals it asked for, but as to marriage certificate and supporting documents, it is copies. Be sure to include a complete photocopy of all the pages of your spouse's passport (I believe they check to be sure no inconsistencies with accompanying claim are indicated).

 

[canadauk1]

Yeah, thats kind of why I'm asking as nowhere in the guidance or checklist for the PR TD does it say "original" or "photocopy". In other forms such as the PR card renewal, they are more explicit?

 

[dpenabill]

Yeah, thats kind of why I'm asking as nowhere in the guidance or checklist for the PR TD does it say "original" or "photocopy". In other forms such as the PR card renewal, they are more explicit?

Just glanced at the form, the checklist, and the instruction guide and indeed no where is there any distinction made as to submitting an original.

Hopefully one of the other sources you have found is more helpful about this.

Indeed, among other sources of information, there is the discussion about PR TD applications in OP 10 "Permanent Residency Status Determination" (see http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/manuals/op/op10-eng.pdf ), and it only refers to not having the original Landing document or PR card as a circumstance requiring a PR to obtain a PR TD.

I am sure that the supporting documents can be a photocopy, and while I would think copies are OK for any documents under item 7, it is grouped with things which on their face need to be the documents themselves, like the application, the checklist, the photographs, and such. (I would ordinarily leave my original CoPR in a safe place repository, for example, and submit a copy, but that is my personal approach.)

Note: except for obvious formalities, like for the application itself, the checklist, the photographs, and your passport, my impression (again, however, based on only a few anecdotal reports) is that IRCC is not particularly strict so long as it is readily apparent the person is who they purport to be, is a PR, and is in compliance with the PR Residency Obligation (including per accompanying a citizen spouse). This may vary some from office to office abroad. Of course the risk is that if the application is deemed insufficient, it can be denied, requiring an appeal, and that would indeed be a major inconvenience. But I think originals of items 1-6 in the checklist, copy of CoPR and expired PR card (original would be safer of course), and good copies of supporting documents, including adequately showing you are accompanying a citizen spouse, should easily suffice.

Otherwise, if possible, telephone the embassy/visa office.

 

[canadauk1]

Hi

Spoke to the local UK VAC and they said photocopies are fine for most of the other docs as you said apart from the passport (and photos etc). I asked about the multiple entry PR TD and they didnt know anything about it (one entry only) even though there is info on the IRCC (CIC) website that does indicate it.

Be nice to hear from anyone that has had a longer term, multiple entry PR TD issued

Thanks

 

[canadauk1]

Thanks for all your help on this. I decided to apply for the multiple entry PR TD and they gave me 5 years

 

[ocaso45]

Renewing my PR CARD

Hi

I'm looking to renew my PR card in the next couple days, however I have a question about my PERSONAL HISTORY (QUESTION 19) because last year I went travelling for 5 months and I stayed in my family house on and off, but I went to Peru, Bolivia and Argentine, between, and than I came back to Chile, and travel south, and I came back at the end of my trip to my parent's house to say good bye, so How can I write down my address if I WAS EVERY DAY travelling for 4 months.???

thanks if any one could help me with this?