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Question regardingTravel History for PR card renewal...don't laugh!

Ponga

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I'm gathering travel dates for my first PR card renewal and was thinking about something that's probably overthinking, but...it's in my DNA, apparently.

If a PR departs Canada on an International flight...and there is a connecting flight in the U.S., the PR has to claim their baggage and go through customs/immigration at that airport, before going through security (again) to catch their second flight. This `visit' to the U.S., albeit very brief, would need to be shown in the TH section, right? However, since their passport would have been scanned by CBP, does that actually create an entry record into the U.S. (suspect that it does not)?
If so, can the PR list the date of travel, followed by `USA/[final destination] on the same line for that single trip from Canada to their final destination, or would it require two separate lines? What if the second leg of the flight is an overnight flight, creating 2 travel dates shown for the same trip? I know it...you're laughing, aren't you?

And, what if the scenario above was a flight that connects in a country where their airport has a Transit Zone and the PR never encounters customs/immigration? It would seem that the TZ, not actually being on that country's soil, would not need to be disclosed in the TH section, right?

FWIW, the last scenario does not currently pertain to me, but would be good to know for future reference.
 

scylla

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I'm gathering travel dates for my first PR card renewal and was thinking about something that's probably overthinking, but...it's in my DNA, apparently.

If a PR departs Canada on an International flight...and there is a connecting flight in the U.S., the PR has to claim their baggage and go through customs/immigration at that airport, before going through security (again) to catch their second flight. This `visit' to the U.S., albeit very brief, would need to be shown in the TH section, right? However, since their passport would have been scanned by CBP, does that actually create an entry record into the U.S. (suspect that it does not)?
If so, can the PR list the date of travel, followed by `USA/[final destination] on the same line for that single trip from Canada to their final destination, or would it require two separate lines? What if the second leg of the flight is an overnight flight, creating 2 travel dates shown for the same trip? I know it...you're laughing, aren't you?

And, what if the scenario above was a flight that connects in a country where their airport has a Transit Zone and the PR never encounters customs/immigration? It would seem that the TZ, not actually being on that country's soil, would not need to be disclosed in the TH section, right?

FWIW, the last scenario does not currently pertain to me, but would be good to know for future reference.
I would just enter the destination country. I don't think you need to list transit countries. So just one line.
 
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Ponga

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I would just enter the destination country. I don't think you need to list transit countries. So just one line.
Thanks. I was mostly wondering about the scanning of the passport in the U.S. airport and have no idea if/how IRCC would even know that, especially traveling on a U.S. passport, but thought it was best to disclose.
 

canuck78

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Thanks. I was mostly wondering about the scanning of the passport in the U.S. airport and have no idea if/how IRCC would even know that, especially traveling on a U.S. passport, but thought it was best to disclose.
You are overthinking things. If you remained in the airport no need to list transit countries.
 

Ponga

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You are overthinking things. If you remained in the airport no need to list transit countries.
Really? What if I do have my passport scanned during the CBP examination before leaving the U.S. airport? Would that not constitute actually entering the U.S. at that point?
 

dpenabill

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Some opinion (despite my reluctance to go there generally) . . .

Overthinking certain details, yeah, rather obviously.

But also, it appears, grossly underthinking what matters. The whole package, the details in context. Especially for a PR card application or a PR being questioned during a PoE examination. In contrast to citizenship applications, where IRCC is more likely to be calling balls-and-strikes, so to say, PR Residency Obligation enforcement tends to be more like a game of horseshoes, and a casual one at that, no measuring tape employed when counting points.

If and when, in the PR RO enforcement context, such specific details are so much as considered, the scales are almost certainly already tipped against the PR. Generally close counts. So if IRCC is probing details this closely, that probably is because the officials have already formed a skeptical if not overtly negative opinion. However, as best we can discern, even then the focus is about understanding the facts, not challenging them.

Moreover, if and when IRCC officials cross into the realm of challenging the PR's facts, their focus, what matters, is still not likely to be at all about details like this.

The point: what matters is what matters. Yeah, tautologies do not say anything new. Nonetheless, if only for emphasis, it is important to recognize that what matters is what matters, and while there is a wide range of details that can affect the overall picture, it is how the more important details fit into the overall picture that mostly determines things. For PR RO enforcement, if the PR appears credible and appears to either be settled in Canada or at least in the process of settling permanently in Canada, and the PR credibly has reported 730+ days presence in the last five years, and there is no glaring reason to doubt that, there is a very low prospect of RO enforcement questioning at a PoE, and a very low chance of any RO enforcement proceedings triggered by a PR card application. For a PR card application, in particular, if in addition the PR is currently settled and physically present in Canada, pending the PR card application, there is a near zero chance of triggering any RO enforcement proceeding.

And this is largely applicable for citizenship applications as well, subject to a little stricter screening of particular details.

The numbers matter, of course, and ultimately the numbers are controlling (subject to H&C factors for RO enforcement, but not citizenship applications), but the PR's credibility and at least the appearance of being settled in Canada loom large . . . and can have a big influence on how thoroughly, intensively, or skeptically IRCC approaches assessing the numbers and the facts the numbers are based on.

If this query is about what will or what might trigger elevated scrutiny, certain details can of course trigger concern or outright suspicion, but again IRCC is not even looking at the details anywhere near this microscopically (especially in regards to RO enforcement) UNLESS something has already triggered elevated scrutiny.

All that said:

A PR card application asks the PR to report, for each period of absence from Canada:

Your location(s) during your absence (city, country/territory)

As @scylla commented, it's the destination country that is most important. The application also asks for the city, and also references the possibility of multiple locations. But, unless the PR is seeking credit for time abroad, based on one of the reasons listed as A or B, greater detail than just listing the primary destination and city should easily, very easily, be totally adequate . . . and even the failure to list a city is not at all likely to cause an eyebrow to wrinkle let alone trigger questions or concerns.

When applying for citizenship application the applicant is asked to list countries visited in addition to the listed destination country, and to do this in the box asking the applicant to state the reason for the trip. Just a list. And if the applicant happens to omit one, the odds of that triggering a question or concern are low, very low.

By the way: since the PR is reporting the date of exit from Canada, any CBSA record of exit from Canada for that date based on entry into the U.S. record, is entirely consistent. That is, the PR's account of the date of exit is readily verified at a glance if IRCC is cross-checking against a CBSA exit history record.
 
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Ponga

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A PR card application asks the PR to report, for each period of absence from Canada:

Your location(s) during your absence (city, country/territory)

As @scylla commented, it's the destination country that is most important. The application also asks for the city, and also references the possibility of multiple locations. But, unless the PR is seeking credit for time abroad, based on one of the reasons listed as A or B, greater detail than just listing the primary destination and city should easily, very easily, be totally adequate . . . and even the failure to list a city is not at all likely to cause an eyebrow to wrinkle let alone trigger questions or concerns.

When applying for citizenship application the applicant is asked to list countries visited in addition to the listed destination country, and to do this in the box asking the applicant to state the reason for the trip. Just a list. And if the applicant happens to omit one, the odds of that triggering a question or concern are low, very low.

By the way: since the PR is reporting the date of exit from Canada, any CBSA record of exit from Canada for that date based on entry into the U.S. record, is entirely consistent. That is, the PR's account of the date of exit is readily verified at a glance if IRCC is cross-checking against a CBSA exit history record.
Question:
Do YOU recall the first time you had to complete the travel history for your first PR card renewal?

If so, were the questions absolutely crystal clear? Did any of them give you pause?


While the [final] destination country is obviously important, wouldn't the entry date into the U.S. (if passport is in fact scanned/recorded by CBP at the U.S. airport) be also required in the TH section, to make the travel details accurate to IRCC...especially if the city constitutes entry into another COUNTRY, while en route to the final destination...country. I even go so far as to compare that to a trip through a fast food drive-thru. DID we actually enter/visit that restaurant? We pulled up to a window...handed a stranger our money...received a brown bag, presumably filled with what we ordered and how we ordered (~ 90% of the time, it's actually right), but NEVER entered the restaurant. Yes, I realize that's a crazy comparison, but...back to that DNA part.

Not disclosing that could be seen as misrepresentation, at least if an over zealous IRCC clerk thinks that it is, when processing the PR renewal application, right? After all, the [wait for it] assumption is that the information must be 100% complete and accurate.

When we travel to Mexico, for example, we usually have direct flights; easy to determine the travel history for that one; no need to burden/belabor the point on this forum. It's the trips where we had to connect via the U.S. that is the source of the question.

Admittedly, the preponderance of angst/anxiety we felt when applying for PR years ago was, in hindsight, grossly exaggerated on our part, based largely to all of the `noise' sucking us into the proverbial "What if they reject us because of [insert absurd reason(s) here]"? Perhaps that also applies for the first card renewal...hence the DNA disclaimer comment in the original post. Oh, if only a call to the IRCC `not so helpful' help line would yield the correct answer. Yeah, right! LOL!

[End of rant]
 

dpenabill

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Admittedly, the preponderance of angst/anxiety we felt when applying for PR years ago was, in hindsight, grossly exaggerated on our part, based largely to all of the `noise' sucking us into the proverbial "What if they reject us because of [insert absurd reason(s) here]"?
Been there. Done that. I still have the complete copy of all that I submitted with my PR application (very nearly a decade and a half ago). To say we probably overdid it is likely a gross understatement. I tend to share the overprepare and still worry approach. That said, there were some tricky nuances in the process, and actually the underlying reason for my continued participation in this forum, my years of contributing as a moderator to another similar forum, was triggered by wanting to pay-forward some very helpful information I obtained here and in the other forum, information that almost certainly helped my application for PR go a lot more smoothly and quickly.


While the [final] destination country is obviously important, wouldn't the entry date into the U.S. (if passport is in fact scanned/recorded by CBP at the U.S. airport) be also required in the TH section, to make the travel details accurate to IRCC...especially if the city constitutes entry into another COUNTRY, while en route to the final destination...country.
The essential information in travel history is the date of exit and date of entry. Unless there is cause for IRCC to investigate more thoroughly, that tells the story. The import of collateral details (like location while abroad) is whether they signal inconsistencies or incongruities sufficient to trigger cause for IRCC to investigate more thoroughly.

Whether this (and the rest of that post) warrants characterizing as overthinking, or underthinking what matters, or missing the point, it warrants noting with some emphasis that IRCC does not engage in gotcha-games, so what mostly matters is whether the PR has provided sufficiently credible information for IRCC to rely on the PR's account of dates of exit and dates of return, so that there is an inference of presence in Canada between a known date of entry and the next reported date of exit.

This forum tends to not give much attention to what I believe (an opinion, but one rooted in following this stuff closely for well over a decade now) is a key factor in whether IRCC has concerns or questions about PRs applying for a new PR card: the extent to which it is readily apparent the PR has settled PERMANENTLY in Canada, or not. If yes, no problem absent a glaring indicator the PR is less than honest; if no, if it is not apparent the PR has settled PERMANENTLY in Canada, I believe there is a substantially increased risk of elevated scrutiny and non-routine PR card processing, and skepticism in assessing the veracity of the PR's information.

I hesitate to employ a criminal law analogy, because the standards in RO enforcement are nothing like those employed in enforcing the criminal law, but your query seems akin to probing the intricacies of establishing an alibi defense to a crime for which you are not a suspect and, indeed, before the crime has yet been committed.

An old adage goes something like an innocent man has nothing to fear. Sure, there are exceptions, and indeed that so-called adage tends to surface when an innocent is under suspicion or being accused; sure, stuff happens. But if a PR is actually in compliance with the PR RO and is currently living in Canada, the odds are near overwhelming their PR card application will be OK absent the PR's failure to properly provide the information requested in the application and checklist. Even if the PR is cutting-it-close, worst case scenario is non-routine processing that takes longer.

As I tried to illuminate before, if IRCC does not see a reason to suspect the PR is misrepresenting their travel history, they are not going to be thrown off by such details and indeed are not likely to even give much if any attention to such details. Remember, most properly completed PR card applications made by PRs settled and living in Canada, not cutting-it-close, are approved within minutes of being opened or at least within a week or two (the week or two is probably about the application going into a brief queue, sitting idle for a week or two, and then there is some kind of simple cross-check or sign-off by another agent or officer, and then in just minutes approved).

In contrast, if IRCC sees reason to have concerns or suspicions, their focus is going to be on bigger issues. And they have the means to investigate (well, they can and will make a referral to CBSA and in turn its NSSD division which has the means to investigate). Remember, many of the anecdotal reports in this forum are about PRs who were abroad more than in Canada in the relevant five year period, while for many others there are indicators raising the possibility the PR is either outside Canada or not currently settled PERMANENTLY in Canada, so yeah, many of those go into a non-routine processing stream and get a much closer look . . . in which IRCC is again looking at bigger issues than the details attendant this or that particular trip outside Canada.

In particular, again, if the PR has accurately (or even just close to accurately) reported dates of exit and entry, that is what matters . . . whereas, in contrast, if IRCC has reason to believe the PR misrepresented dates of exit, and it was not a minor isolated mistake, well, yeah, the level of scrutiny increases. There's a referral for Secondary Review, and perhaps a referral to CBSA and in turn its NSSD division. No advanced degrees in rocket science needed to map the trajectory in such cases.

But, no, there is very little, very very little risk, that someone in IRCC is going to focus on a U.S. entry record (that is otherwise consistent with reported date of exit) in the manner you describe, no matter how zealous, and be concerned much; and virtually no chance at all even a zealous bureaucrat in IRCC is going to characterize this as misrepresentation.

Note: No, the assumption is NOT that the PR's "information must be 100% complete and accurate," but rather that the PR has been honest and diligent, is not evasive and is not being deceptive, and at least submitted information the PR reasonably believes is complete and accurate. IRCC readily recognizes PRs make mistakes. Perfect accuracy is not expected. Again, IRCC does not play gotcha-games.

My sense, if you really harbour concerns about how closely IRCC might examine such details, is you really should read some of the IAD decisions to get a better idea of the nature and scope of RO enforcement, and see what circumstances typically trigger concerns. It is very clear that PRs who comply with the RO have very, very little to worry about. The system leans way more toward leniency and, some might say, lax enforcement.


In the FWIW or if-you-are-interested category:

Question:
Do YOU recall the first time you had to complete the travel history for your first PR card renewal?

If so, were the questions absolutely crystal clear? Did any of them give you pause?
I never applied to renew my PR card. I let it expire. I had an application for citizenship pending and about a week or two after my PR card expired, I got the notice I was scheduled for an interview and the oath ceremony, getting that notice just a few days before the interview (even back then, under the Harper era law and much younger than I am now, I was age exempt as to the knowledge of Canada test; yeah, old and around the block more than a few times). I literally got the notice in the mail less than a week before my scheduled interview; then I got a phone call on the weekend to confirm I got the notice and I would appear. Interview Tuesday afternoon; oath (contingent on no issues arising in interview) Thursday morning.

I had prepared a draft PR card application, but I was not particularly anxious about applying for a PR card. I had friends who never bothered to even get PR cards (they landed before the changes in law) or apply for citizenship; they had visa-exempt passports from their home country (most from the UK) which back then were sufficient for international travel.

At that time, the PR card application did not ask for nearly the same level of detail as currently. And even the citizenship application, at that time, did not ask applicants to report day trips to the U.S. (nonetheless, being a bit overly cautious and perhaps anal myself, for each calendar year I reported one day trip in the calculator and in the reasons box mentioned I made X number of additional day trips that year, X being a substantial number for most years).

Things change. I have been following the changes. But the underlying principles and core issues remain largely the same.

A PR who is in compliance with the RO, and is present and living in Canada, who can provide a fairly reasonable account of their travel history, and who otherwise follows the instructions and provides the requested information, has a low risk their PR card will encounter non-routine processing let alone get tangled in any difficult issues.
 
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Ponga

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Been there. Done that. I still have the complete copy of all that I submitted with my PR application (very nearly a decade and a half ago). To say we probably overdid it is likely a gross understatement. I tend to share the overprepare and still worry approach. That said, there were some tricky nuances in the process, and actually the underlying reason for my continued participation in this forum, my years of contributing as a moderator to another similar forum, was triggered by wanting to pay-forward some very helpful information I obtained here and in the other forum, information that almost certainly helped my application for PR go a lot more smoothly and quickly.
I have visited that other forum, several times; I'm sure you are missed...by at least a handful of members. LOL! Personally, I almost always enjoy the pseudo, albeit non-fiction novellas that you post.

Our PR application was in a rather large box that may have required a forklift to deliver to what was then CIC. We even included a picture of our cat on the top of the `stack' wearing a tiny sombrero, in the hopes that the person reviewing our application would at least start with a grin. I'm sure it was short lived, considering the hundreds of pages of photos, cards, text messages, etc., that was beneath our kitty's picture. Amazing how much power/control is assumed to be in the hands of a total stranger, when trying to prove a genuine relationship.

I will now abandon the idea of trying to recall each and every day/weekend trip that my Canadian spouse and I have taken for the last 5 years. Being a U.S. citizen, I had convinced my Canadian spouse to order their travel history from CBP, so that I could recall my trips across as well (we had quite a few, being as we were living ~ 20 minutes away from the nearest land PoE) until a couple of years ago. Now, we're several hours away from a land PoE and it's too much of a pain to even think about crossing by car, but we undoubtedly will again, someday.

Each time I left/re-entered Canada (for any and all trips, including flights, cruises) we were together. Technically everyday since becoming PR counts towards my R.O., since I was always traveling with my spouse. My/our last entry was in early Nov 2019 (flight from abroad) and we haven't traveled since...not even those pesky drives across the border. I would think that that trip alone [entry record], would satisfy to IRCC that I am in fact in compliance, since it was nearly 3 years ago now. Wow...time really does fly.

Thanks again for your tolerance and valuable information.
 
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dpenabill

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Some along the way commentary; first an essay of sorts on evidence:

Our PR application was in a rather large box that may have required a forklift to deliver to what was then CIC.
Caveat: If I was to write an autobiography, "failing to practice what I preach" might be the subtitle, and yeah, it would go long, very long.

Something even a lot of trial lawyers overlook is the extent to which a mountain of evidence can distract if not outright bury the evidence that really matters. Quality of evidence almost always carries way more weight than quantity. And there is a real risk that too much quantity will obscure if not conceal the evidence that will win the day.

Ohhh, yeah, there are plenty of "there's a mountain of evidence" arguments vehemently made as if that must dictate the outcome, but that is typically either a tactical error or, more often, a deliberate effort to obfuscate the absence of key, strong evidence.

Been decades (actually three decades plus some now) since my stint as a practicing litigator (personal history I typically try to leave out of the conversation), but if anything my sense is that focused presentation, both evidentiary and argument presentation, is more important today than ever. We now live in the age of abbreviation and acronyms, texting and twitter illustrating if not defining the parameters of most discourse, short and still shrinking attention spans. The abridged version tends to be too long these days. This undoubtedly spills into workplaces including bureaucracies, into any and every venue of human discourse, into the nooks and crannies of even the most formal decision-making processes.

Short and sweet. That's the play these days. More tends to be less, as if we are stuck in a Kafkaesque song composed by Bob Dylan.

Nonetheless, in many of the more important transactions in life that involve making-the-case to a decision-maker, it can be very difficult to recognize the tipping point, where more tends to be less. In the adding weight to one side of the scales analogy, there is a tipping point at which too much on one side does not effectively tip the scales any further in one's favour, but tips the scales over altogether, spilling it all, so that the decision-maker has to pick up and sort through what's been spilled, at the risk of what really makes the difference being overlooked, misplaced, or lost.

Which is not to overlook how adding something that might not have real probative value but an emotional hook can be important.

There's a reason the good trial lawyer (most lawyers are not trial lawyers, and remarkably few lawyers who do trials are all that good) is high priced and hard to come by.

So, putting the smoking gun in the other guy's hands, if that is possible, tends to be more persuasive than a truckload or three of cumulative evidence.

All that said, and yeah been there done that as well, rather often back in the day, sometimes the litigator is compelled to deliver evidence and argument by the truckload, working the art of obfuscation when the tools of persuasion are not at hand. But of course the litigator, and in other venues the politician, will pound the podium about the "mountain of evidence" that demands an outcome going their way. Even though . . .

. . . no shortage of claims that what matters is something other than what matters.

So, as for practicing or not practicing what I preach: take the citizenship application for example, I will generally say, and this is what I actually believe, that it is best to follow the instructions and the checklist, and not submit more than what is asked . . . but I did, myself. In my defense, the additional documents were few, my NoA, which I included because I was self-employed . . . and I was well aware that adding more than what is asked can easily be interpreted to signal an effort to dodge cause for questioning.


Technically everyday since becoming PR counts towards my R.O., since I was always traveling with my spouse.
That said, for a PR who actually needs the RO credit for days abroad accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse, there can be questions about whether days traveling together get the credit. It can depend. This can be a complex subject in a small, narrow range of circumstances. For a PR who was living in Canada with their Canadian citizen spouse prior to travel abroad, and who has been ordinarily living with the PR otherwise, in and outside Canada, yeah, the credit is readily allowed. Not complicated. There are, however, scenarios where it can be and does get complicated, which have been discussed in depth in other topics here.

BUT for most PRs with a Canadian citizen spouse, just regularly coming and going from Canada is likely to readily give a green light for a PR card application. Not an application that is at all likely to trigger IRCC getting out the magnifying glass, let alone a microscope.

That said . . .

I will now abandon the idea of trying to recall each and every day/weekend trip that my Canadian spouse and I have taken for the last 5 years. Being a U.S. citizen, I had convinced my Canadian spouse to order their travel history from CBP, so that I could recall my trips across as well (we had quite a few, being as we were living ~ 20 minutes away from the nearest land PoE) until a couple of years ago
From what you have described, the odds of an issue seem remote. That said, as a general proposition the PR should be "trying to recall" all trips abroad, including day or overnight trips to the U.S., at least within practical reason. To the extent the PR recognizes there are likely omissions, especially if more than a few, probably a good idea to somehow acknowledge that clearly in what is submitted. Maybe no more is needed than a statement to the effect: "my Canadian citizen spouse and I also made ["some," or "many," or "numerous;" whatever term is most appropriate for YOUR facts] day and overnight trips across the U.S. border, for which I do not have a record."

The prospect of omissions triggering elevated scrutiny and non-routine processing, or overt skepticism, is far greater than not identifying the U.S. (or any particular country visited or transited) for a given trip. As I said:
The essential information in travel history is the date of exit and date of entry.

IRCC recognizes people make mistakes, including omissions. IRCC does not engage in the gotcha-game. List and get nearly all of the entry and exit dates right, allowing some (a few) are not perfectly accurate, allowing a small number of short trip omissions, should not trigger any problems at all.

But it should be obvious, the more that is inaccurate and especially the more that is missing, signals the PR did not keep good records and/or is not all that reliable as a reporter of facts. Credibility is about how much someone can rely on what you report. Indications of deception, yeah, that knocks the PR's credibility down badly, but even entirely innocent inaccuracy and omission indicates the individual cannot be relied on for a full and accurate accounting of the facts. Even if the case is like yours, where it is unlikely there will be concerns, getting it as close to complete and accurate is a good idea, and it is also probably a good idea to acknowledge upfront the nature and extent to which the information being provided may be incomplete or potentially inaccurate.
 
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Richaki

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Some along the way commentary; first an essay of sorts on evidence:



Caveat: If I was to write an autobiography, "failing to practice what I preach" might be the subtitle, and yeah, it would go long, very long.

Something even a lot of trial lawyers overlook is the extent to which a mountain of evidence can distract if not outright bury the evidence that really matters. Quality of evidence almost always carries way more weight than quantity. And there is a real risk that too much quantity will obscure if not conceal the evidence that will win the day.

Ohhh, yeah, there are plenty of "there's a mountain of evidence" arguments vehemently made as if that must dictate the outcome, but that is typically either a tactical error or, more often, a deliberate effort to obfuscate the absence of key, strong evidence.

Been decades (actually three decades plus some now) since my stint as a practicing litigator (personal history I typically try to leave out of the conversation), but if anything my sense is that focused presentation, both evidentiary and argument presentation, is more important today than ever. We now live in the age of abbreviation and acronyms, texting and twitter illustrating if not defining the parameters of most discourse, short and still shrinking attention spans. The abridged version tends to be too long these days. This undoubtedly spills into workplaces including bureaucracies, into any and every venue of human discourse, into the nooks and crannies of even the most formal decision-making processes.

Short and sweet. That's the play these days. More tends to be less, as if we are stuck in a Kafkaesque song composed by Bob Dylan.

Nonetheless, in many of the more important transactions in life that involve making-the-case to a decision-maker, it can be very difficult to recognize the tipping point, where more tends to be less. In the adding weight to one side of the scales analogy, there is a tipping point at which too much on one side does not effectively tip the scales any further in one's favour, but tips the scales over altogether, spilling it all, so that the decision-maker has to pick up and sort through what's been spilled, at the risk of what really makes the difference being overlooked, misplaced, or lost.

Which is not to overlook how adding something that might not have real probative value but an emotional hook can be important.

There's a reason the good trial lawyer (most lawyers are not trial lawyers, and remarkably few lawyers who do trials are all that good) is high priced and hard to come by.

So, putting the smoking gun in the other guy's hands, if that is possible, tends to be more persuasive than a truckload or three of cumulative evidence.

All that said, and yeah been there done that as well, rather often back in the day, sometimes the litigator is compelled to deliver evidence and argument by the truckload, working the art of obfuscation when the tools of persuasion are not at hand. But of course the litigator, and in other venues the politician, will pound the podium about the "mountain of evidence" that demands an outcome going their way. Even though . . .

. . . no shortage of claims that what matters is something other than what matters.

So, as for practicing or not practicing what I preach: take the citizenship application for example, I will generally say, and this is what I actually believe, that it is best to follow the instructions and the checklist, and not submit more than what is asked . . . but I did, myself. In my defense, the additional documents were few, my NoA, which I included because I was self-employed . . . and I was well aware that adding more than what is asked can easily be interpreted to signal an effort to dodge cause for questioning.




That said, for a PR who actually needs the RO credit for days abroad accompanying-a-Canadian-citizen-spouse, there can be questions about whether days traveling together get the credit. It can depend. This can be a complex subject in a small, narrow range of circumstances. For a PR who was living in Canada with their Canadian citizen spouse prior to travel abroad, and who has been ordinarily living with the PR otherwise, in and outside Canada, yeah, the credit is readily allowed. Not complicated. There are, however, scenarios where it can be and does get complicated, which have been discussed in depth in other topics here.

BUT for most PRs with a Canadian citizen spouse, just regularly coming and going from Canada is likely to readily give a green light for a PR card application. Not an application that is at all likely to trigger IRCC getting out the magnifying glass, let alone a microscope.

That said . . .



From what you have described, the odds of an issue seem remote. That said, as a general proposition the PR should be "trying to recall" all trips abroad, including day or overnight trips to the U.S., at least within practical reason. To the extent the PR recognizes there are likely omissions, especially if more than a few, probably a good idea to somehow acknowledge that clearly in what is submitted. Maybe no more is needed than a statement to the effect: "my Canadian citizen spouse and I also made ["some," or "many," or "numerous;" whatever term is most appropriate for YOUR facts] day and overnight trips across the U.S. border, for which I do not have a record."

The prospect of omissions triggering elevated scrutiny and non-routine processing, or overt skepticism, is far greater than not identifying the U.S. (or any particular country visited or transited) for a given trip. As I said:
The essential information in travel history is the date of exit and date of entry.

IRCC recognizes people make mistakes, including omissions. IRCC does not engage in the gotcha-game. List and get nearly all of the entry and exit dates right, allowing some (a few) are not perfectly accurate, allowing a small number of short trip omissions, should not trigger any problems at all.

But it should be obvious, the more that is inaccurate and especially the more that is missing, signals the PR did not keep good records and/or is not all that reliable as a reporter of facts. Credibility is about how much someone can rely on what you report. Indications of deception, yeah, that knocks the PR's credibility down badly, but even entirely innocent inaccuracy and omission indicates the individual cannot be relied on for a full and accurate accounting of the facts. Even if the case is like yours, where it is unlikely there will be concerns, getting it as close to complete and accurate is a good idea, and it is also probably a good idea to acknowledge upfront the nature and extent to which the information being provided may be incomplete or potentially inaccurate.
I really and truly want to know where you find the time the time and energy you out into these responses, because they could likely solve our global energy crisis for decades to come.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
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I really and truly want to know where you find the time the time and energy you out into these responses, because they could likely solve our global energy crisis for decades to come.
Sorry to disappoint you, but solving the global energy crisis will demand serious investment in science and technology, in coordination with the political will to resist corporate greed, none of which is my forte. It has been nearly a half century since I exited the nuclear energy profession, and am more certain today than I was then, that's not the solution.

I've reached that stage in life where there are not, not personally, "decades" to come; probably not even a decade. Perhaps some among my grandchildren will take up that worthwhile cause.

I acknowledge that leaving the realm of science to not just engage but indulge in jurisprudence and related matters was not the honorable or admirable route. Yeah, I sold out. Oh well. At least I found my way to live in this great country, to make it home.