PRTD APPLICATION H & C grounds
- Thread starter Antares923yt
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You may be able to work. Without any activity associated with your SIN# your account is usually put on hold. Apparently you now need to provide a valid PR card to deactivate your PR card. If you can’t reactivate your SIN# you won’t be able to work legally. Accessing medical care may also be difficult and varies by province. In many provinces you are required to show a valid PR card or a PR card that has only recently expired. If you aren’t reported while entering Canada by land it is advised that you should remain in Canada for 2 years so you become compliant with your RO. Once compliant you can apply for a new PR card.
Do you have a source for this? Honest question, not trying to be argumentative.
But I can find no evidence that the "dormant SIN" cannot be used legally for work purposes (by the individual to who it's rightfully attributed). The 'block' on the SIN card seems to be designed primarily to ensure it can't be used to access benefits (or get information online that might allow the individual to access benefits).
I can't find anything that indicates it would be illegal to use it to work - that would seem contrary to law.
(Unfortunately I do not know what would happen if an employer used a dormant one, even as intended - which may make it practically impossible to work legally).
Your single concern should be admission into Canada. Once admitted into Canada without any issues, by law (which is to say by the intent of the Parliament) you are as good as any other PR, even if your PR card had expired. There is anecdotal evidence of various provincial and federal agencies within Canada (not related to IRCC) creating problems and employing stalling techniques, under the pretext that you have to have valid PR card. This is complete nonsense. Your COPR is proof of your PR status, PR card is not required. If you encounter such an illegal discrimination, research the law and consult an attorney. You might be able to challenge these discriminatory practices in court. I am sure if hundreds, nay, thousands of immigrants sue those agencies in court and they get a whiff that immigrants are not willing to put up with the nonsense, they will reverse their discriminatory practices. But if you never challenge wrongdoers, then they will continue doing what they are doing with impunity.
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There were reports from other individuals returning to Canada. To prevent fraud there are now new procedures. Believe that using a dormant SIN would lead to Service Canada or CRA contacting you and your employer. If you are unable to provide your valid PR card it is hard to say what will happen but nothing should be able to get processed without a valid SIN#.
The big issue is that if you have health issues and limited funds you can’t wait for a year or even more to sue the government, wait to access healthcare, not work, etc. If you have funds to live off it isn’t such an issue.
I have seen some other such reports but not saying that Service Canada or CRA claimed that the SIN could not be used to work (assuming by the 'owner' of the number ie not for identity fraud). And I've also not seen anything that says or implies that using the number in this way would be illegal.
It is interesting what CRA would say if contacting the employer or individual - but again, I don't see any basis to say that the individual could not work (if a PR, of course). The CRA/Service Canada sources I found (don't have to hand, sorry) do not say anything of that sort - but that to get online access or receive benefits would not be possible until the dormant flag removed. (I'm going by memory here and paraphrasing)
But I would like to clarify this point. It's a significant difference.
Which is why I originally said you may have difficulty working. This may be able to be resolved with time but many are dependent on finding work quite soon after entering Canada
You originally wrote "If you can’t reactivate your SIN# you won’t be able to work legally."
This may not have been intentional on your part but it reads as if you are saying it would not be legal to work (as opposed to it may be dfficult to get work because of the dormancy flag) - and the difference is potentially very, very significant for a PR.
In the most simple terms, if it is legal to work with a dormant SIN (even if inconvenient), the PR can attempt to do so.
I cannot find any source that says that a PR who is out of compliance and whose SIN has been placed in 'dormant' status cannot work legally. They are PRs and they have a valid SIN.
If your point is that employers might get contacted and might be unwilling to take such a chance - that's a different point and an entirely different set of issues and risks for the PR.
And personally I think that a PR in that position (should it occur) should contact a lawyer - unless there is a demonstrated legal basis that makes the use of a SIN illegal or allows CRA to forbid its usage for employment purposes (in both cases by its rightful 'holder'), then this should not be allowed.
I think it's entirely possible that there is no intent on the part of CRA to use the dormancy procedure to (effectively) forbid lawful work and usage of the SIN - since (after all) by govt of Canada's own publications it's an anti-fraud/anti-identity theft procedure, with no indication it's intended to target out-of-compliance PRs.
This was my unedited response
“ You may be able to work. Without any activity associated with your SIN# your account is usually put on hold. Apparently you now need to provide a valid PR card to deactivate your PR card. If you can’t reactivate your SIN# you won’t be able to work legally. Accessing medical care may also be difficult and varies by province. In many provinces you are required to show a valid PR card or a PR card that has only recently expired. If you aren’t reported while entering Canada by land it is advised that you should remain in Canada for 2 years so you become compliant with your RO. Once compliant you can apply for a new PR card.”
Without a working SIN# you can’t work legally. You need a working SIN# to work. CRA is going to contact you and your employer if your SIN# is dormant to see what your status is in Canada. You could have lost your status. COPR doesn’t prove your current status which is why I assume a valid PR card or Canadian passport is now required. I do think there is a valid case for you to reactivate your SIN# without meeting your RO but that will likely take quite a lot of time and money. Many will likely not be a position to pay a lawyer or wait long. People should consider that they not be able to work or at least not right away if they enter with an expired PR card and especially if they have not spent time in Canada for a long time.
I recognize your points.
The parts I am commenting on (partly bolded):
-"You can't work legally" - this is not the same thing as saying that working using your SIN is illegal.
-It does not seem proven that a dormant SIN means that the SIN 'does not work' - there is evidence that the SIN does not work for all purposes (i.e. you may not be able to get online access and/or access benefits related to the SIN), but it may still work for other purposes (employment and paying taxes).
-I asked and perhaps have missed but I have not seen evidence that CRA will contact the PR or the employer, or (if they contact) demand proof of status to continue to work legally. I do not know. Have you seen such cases/can you provide a link? (I know these are rare enough that may be unrealistic - but if so, that also means the answer is not clear)
-As I have stated - it is a reasonable hypothesis that a) CRA is not attempting to stop PRs from working by using the dormancy status, OR that b) if CRA is doing so, that could be challenged. (Yes, it's hard for a PR out-of-compliance to prove status, but not clear that's where the burden of proof lies - legally - for working and not accessing benefits).
This hypothesis could be wrong. And you are correct that if a PR whose SIN is dormant may not be able to feasibly challenge such an approach (realistically).
And overall you are correct that there are lots of challenges a PR in such a situation faces - I agree with that point, esp as regards health care, etc.
But the actual facts about what dormancy means and CRA's intended approach do not seem clear to me.
(My opinion about the relative wisdom of such a policy is probably clear - but I'm not trying to debate that point here, only what the dormant SIN policy actually means in practice and legally.)
Somebody with serious health issue and breach of RO is unlikely to move to Canada, perils of immigration are too demanding of healthy , let alone ailing and sick. But let's suppose someone came to Canada and got sick soon thereafter(got cancer or other serious condition). What happens next is that the person gets treated regardless of health insurance and receives full amount of the bill, like Surjit Sodhi (https://healthydebate.ca/2018/07/topic/uninsured-patients-ontario/ ).
But unlike Surjit PR is entitled to health coverage after certain amount of time in Canada (depending on province). If the person is poor and has no means, then Canada can't collect the bill anyway. How will someone like Surjit pay $250,000 hospital bill? But if you deal with someone who has means, has PR and knows his/her rights, the litigation is very likely. And it will target the persons or entities who negligently, maliciously and willfully denied the benefit that PR is entitled to by law. And if the Federal courts side with the victim, not only will he get his med bills paid, but he could also get compensated for mental anguish and pain inflicted.
There are plenty of people who have controlled medical conditions who may want to move back to Canada but depend on expensive medication for example.
If someone has a large hospital bill and remains in Canada they will be expected to pay off the bill over time in full or negotiate a payment of a reduced amount based on estimated lifetime income. In most cases, as pointed out in the article, hospitals and doctors stop providing services if no attempt to make any form of full or partial payment has been made. In case of lifesaving treatment services where travel home is not possible services are not discontinued. I assume there was an agreement to provide care until there was a response to his immigration application. This is not always the case especially if the bill is so high and if the patient can travel to their home country.
And a lot of it is significantly cheaper than in the US. So much so, that our Medicare recipients cross border and buy in Canada. Because their co-pay under Medicare is greater than the full retail price of the drug in Canada.
At the end of the day, no one with zero or minimum income will pay $250,000 bill.
That's not entirely true. Hospitals can't refuse emergency treatment. But they can refuse elective treatment, or any such treatment that occurs during ordinary visits with providers.
Correct
That guy was not a PR, as such not entitled to anything. If I were Canada I would kick him out to wherever he came from. Sounds cruel, but that's human nature, we are cruel and practical beings. However, PR who is entitled to all benefits that come with PR status is not the same as non-immigrant who needs health care. PR, whether he has PR card or not is irrelevant, is entitled to all protections and benefits of PR inside Canada. As such, he can't be legally denied what he is entitled to by law. Of course, some individuals or agencies can make it difficult or impossible for him to get the benefits sought, ask for valid PR card, active SIN and etc. But, the question is: is PR who has valid status entitled to health care benefits? If answer is NO, then all is fine and he can be denied the coverage. But if answer is YES, then whoever obstructed and denied him the benefit will have to answer before the law. As I pointed out above, if someone willfully, maliciously and negligently denies benefit that PR is entitled to, then tort action is likely. And if PR prevails, not only bills will have to be paid but he will have to be compensated for pain and suffering inflicted.
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Not sure about the price of medication has anything to do with this. Most moving to Canada don’t have permanent status in the US.
As I indicated there are payment plans and there can be some adjustments based on income but people sign agreements to pay for decades a bit at a time. The hospitals do have budgets so at a certain point they are unable to provide free services.
If you actually read my post I stated that lifesaving treatment or emergency treatment will not be refused. There was an example where a quadriplegic (could have been paraplegic) man was refused rehab because he had such a large bill at the spinal cord hospital. So people’s definition of lifesaving treatment may be different.
PR status does not entitle to you to health coverage. There are even RO to receive healthcare.
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