PR card had expired - won't apply for TD, can I apply visitor's visa directly?

[Kannelbulle]

Dear members,

I am new to this forum, and so kindly please bear with me.

I am a Canadian PR, and I have been a PR for 14 years (since Sept 1999) and I do have a lot of social & professional ties with Canada (except having a property). Despite the length of time being Canadian PR, I still have no wish yet to apply for Canadian citizenship because I do not want to loose my original citizenship (I cannot have dual citizenship under my country's law).

I had always been living in Canada until March 2010, when I had to go abroad for employment (no available options in Canada for my field and expertise). At the time, my PR Card was still valid. I had been visiting Canada a couple of time for a short visit, in Nov 2010 and Dec 2011.

Now my PR Card had expired on Oct 10, 2013 while I am overseas (I am now in Sweden), and now I plan to go Canada again for a short visit this coming XMast and New Year holiday to visit friends and colleagues, and tie up some loose ends.

I have checked my situation requirements for applying a Travel Document and I found that I cannot meet my residency obligation (only 497/730 in the last 5 years). As well, I do not meet any other exemptions that would allow me to count the days outside Canada as 'being physically present in Canada' (i.e., being a spouse accompanying Canadian citizen/Canadian PR overseas, working in a Canadian business/public service overseas, or be considered on a humanitarian/compassionate ground)

Under my citizenship, I am not visa-exempted to visit Canada. But then, I do not want to take a chance by applying for the TD as my case could be rejected and if that is the case, I need to go through the 'lengthy and draining' appeal process that requires me to respond within 60 days. Meanwhile, Xmast and New Year is around the corner. If my TD application is rejected, then I won't be able to visit Canada for XMast and New Year at all, considering the 60-day limit rule.

The fact is, I have decided to NOT maintain my Canadian PR status, given my lack of residency obligation (as noted above) and lack of employment options for my field within Canada (i.e., there are more and more budget cuts in science). Maybe one day I may apply for the PR again, but that is not guaranteed.

I have now decided not to apply for TD, however, I have not officially relinquished my PR status either. Can I now directly apply for a visitor's visa for my upcoming visit to Canada (Dec 2013 - Jan 2014)?

Thank you very much for your help.

Kannelbulle

 

[scylla]

You would have to officially relinquish your PR status before applying for a visitor visa.

 

[steaky]

Try to get a US visa so that you can return to Canada on foot or any non-commercial vehicle using your expired PR card.

 

[Msafiri]

Canadian PRs and Citizens don't get issued visitor visas even on application. You have to relinquish your PR - best and fastest way is to apply for a TD and indicate you accept breaching the Residence Obligation and waiving all appeal rights. Include a seperate visitors visa application with the TD application. The visa post will ideally refuse your TD and issue you the visitors visa.

Alternativley go via the US method as per Steaky. The border agent may not evn report you and you may get a second chance at PR retention if you decide to live in Canada. By the way CiC and the courts would disagree with your I had to leave Canada statement and re-phrase it as I chose to leave Canada.

Good luck

 

[Kannelbulle]

Thank you very much for your advise and insights.

I do have a US visa (multiple entry) that is still valid until 2019. So, I can do Steaky's suggestion. However, I cannot imagine traveling from the US to Canada on foot or on any non-commercial vehicle. I lived in Vancouver (BC) and the usual mode of transportation when I travel from/and to Seattle is by Greyhound bus. Besides, if I got unlucky with the Border/Custom Officer, I may got into trouble, and they could register my name in the database for being delinquent. It happened with my former boss (a Canadian citizen), but it was not on PR Card issue. It was on a declaration of taxable goods (clothing and some personal electronics) that he purchased overseas which he under-reported at the port of landing (airport) in Vancouver. He got caught for being dishonest and his name was registered in the Canadian border/custom database for 10 years. So, using the US route option for my case is quite risky, and this is not good as I travel a lot in my work. Besides, I do not have any plan at the moment to live in Canada as I have a full-time position that I have to go back to in Sweden (where I am a temporary resident). It is kind of sad, actually, as I have been living in Canada since 1995, and I do feel Canadian. However, given the employment situation, I had no choice.

I think the only feasible option for me is to apply for TD as per Msafiri's suggestion.

I have some clarification questions to Msafiri, though:

(1) If I relinquish my PR, do you know what would happen to my SIN Card? Would it be automatically cancelled? Before I became a PR, my SIN starts with number '9' and had expiry date. Then, when I became a PR, I had it changed and it starts with another number and it does not have expiry date any longer. Will I have to change my SIN Card after I relinquished my PR? Will they ask me to send in my SIN Card? Do I have to send in my SIN Card with my TD application?

(2) I do still have social ties with Canada, for example: bank accounts, student loan accounts that I am still paying back from Sweden (!), and some minuscule amount of RRSP. Would all of these be affected once the PR is relinquished? Should I mention the change of my PR status to my bank in Canada and to the office of Canada Student Loan Program (CSLP)?

(3) You mentioned, "... CiC and the courts would disagree with your I had to leave Canada statement and re-phrase it as I chose to leave Canada" - what does it mean? Does it mean that I cannot leave Canada by law? Can you please clarify?

Your advise is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

Kannelbulle

 

[steaky]

It's not risky to cross the US-Canada border as long as you were being honest. I crossed the border quite often with loads of shopping goods. Anyways, especially during the summer months, I saw many people use bicycles to travel between the two countries and they crossed quickly.

 

[Msafiri]

1. Crossing the land border by non commercial means isn't that problematic depending on the crossing point e.g. rainbow bridge Niagara Falls has a walk option. You can always use a rental vehicle or get a friend to pick you up from the US side in their private car.

2. If you get reported at entry you still are admitted but have to appeal the report in 30 days. If you don't care about loss of PR then this guarantees you entry anyway. Once the 30 days are up you get issued a removal order but it seems you would have left Canada by then according to your plans.

3. SIN card will eventually be deactivated. I don't know if CIC notify HRSDC about loss of PR and your card cancelled but its moot anyway as why would you need to use it if not resident in Canada.

4. Tax related issues e.g RRSPs etc are linked to ties you have in Canada. Having a DL, Health Card, bank account etc are considered in classing you resident for tax purposes. Those getting paid their loans don't care if you are a PR or not as long as the money is coming. I guess if you decide not to pay then they can't exactly come after you in Sweden! Post in the Taxation section for more advice on this.

5. If you get into any legal situations e.g. appealing loss of PR you can't say you 'had to leave' Canada since you didn't really have to but rather 'you chose to' because you wanted a better job..that's what CIC will say and the courts will support them. Your decision to leave Canada is a lifestyle choice.

6. Not getting into your business but weigh up the loss of PR implications if Sweden or any other third country doesn't work out...will you be able to work in your home country? I guess not since you haven't gone back..is it a 'patriotism' thing to hang onto this Citizenship. I note that many countries are slowly accepting the reality of the modern world and dual nationality or some 'similar' status is becoming the norm e.g India with the PIO scheme. Maybe your home country will go down this route but it will be too late for you with the Canadian status that you seek to abandon.

 

[Kannelbulle]

Thanks for the replies to Steaky and Msafiri.

Commenting Msafiri's reply:

Noted on #1 and #2.

About #3: I was not concern on the SIN Card per se, but rather on the consequences when CIC notify HRSDC about the loss of my PR status and thus, my SIN card would be cancelled/revoked. What would happen to my social ties with Canada (i.e., bank account, Student Loan account, RRSP, etc.)? As I understand it, all of these are registered under my SIN #.

About #4: Yes, Canadian Student Loan office contacted me (twice) while I am already in Sweden. But I guess, this is because I notified them about my new points of contact in the first place. One of the things that I am grateful being a Canadian PR is the opportunity to get a SL scheme to pursue a higher education. So, I have been paying back my SL and I intend to pay back the SL to the system that once helped me. I will post question on this issue in the Taxation section as per your suggestion to get more advise.


Noted on #5.

About #6: I forgot to mention in my earlier post - yes, I had been back to my home country for 2 years (2010 - 2012), after I left Canada. However, like some people in North America, my supposedly 'permanent' position in my home country was also affected by global financial meltdown. I had to search for other opportunities and I was lucky to get a position in Sweden in 2012. Some of my Canadian citizen colleagues were also affected by this global financial meltdown and they, too, have to look for opportunities elsewhere. It is not easy to find job opportunities in our field (academia/research) in Canada as Canadian govt has been reducing and cutting budget for research/science. If things do not go as planned in Sweden, I guess, I have to continue search for opportunities elsewhere, too. Nothing is secured these days. I have come to accept this reality.

I guess, this is what I meant earlier by "have to leave Canada", instead of "chose to leave Canada" - but I understand the legal implication as per your explanation. And you are right, life is about choice.

As for citizenship, I don't know how people feel about their original citizenships, but for me, changing citizenship does not come easily, especially if I have to loose the original citizenship. It is not patriotism, though; I don't know what it is. I guess, because I was born with it and thus, it is rather difficult to be too pragmatic about it. Yes, you are right, there have been discussions on dual-citizenship in our parliament, however, it may take 10 years or more to have it enacted. Our politicians are too behind to accept the reality of the modern world.

Msafiri, in your first post (22 Nov), you suggested that the fastest way to relinquish PR status is by applying for a TD, and your wrote: "Include a separate visitors visa application with the TD application. The visa post will ideally refuse your TD and issue you the visitors visa." - did you mean that I send in BOTH application forms in ONE ENVELOPE and send them together to Canadian Visa Office (in my case in London, UK)? Please advise.

Thank you,

Kannelbulle

 

[Msafiri]

Some of your financial related queries are linked to your status as a resident/ non resident for tax purposes. If you remain resident for tax purposes then you can still keep your RRSPs etc but someone on the tax forum will confirm. Check with your bank what happens if you are not residing in Canada anymore...I think the lack of a Canadian address will eventually be an issue.

In relation to the TD and Visitor Visa application yes include both in one envelope with 2 separate fees. I think time is not on your side especially if the visa post wait for the 60 day appeal period to end before issuing the visitor visa or if there are mailing issues.

In your shoes I would enter via a US land border as this guarantees entry even if the agent reports you. After you leave Canada then submit a TD and visitors visa application at your own convenience.

 

[canadabuddy]

PR card has expired - how can we enter canada and get PR re-instated?

2003 - We received Canadian Immigration visa under IM-1 Skilled Worker Class

2003- Arrived in Canada and stayed for a month
Feb, 2004 - Returned to Canada with the family. We returned to India after staying for about 1.5 months to attend to my parents

2005 - We were blessed with our daughter

Our PR cards expired in 2009

Over the years have taken roles in South East Asia, India and Middle East while my wife used to work with Bank of Nova Scotia earlier and is now an entrepreneur.

Question for you:
Over the years, we sought opportunities within the same Group; to move to Canada. Unfortunately, the recession of 2008, put this completely off track.

We are keen to move back to Canada - could you guide us through the process of getting our PR card's re-validated and also how could our daughter get Canadian Immigration visa to move with us.

We have also read a few posts talking about taking the US route to enter Canada. Would the border officer not object to our entering on long expired PR cards.

Even if we somehow manage to enter Canada, would our kids be able to get admission in schools....considering we have expired PR Cards, SIN cards and OHIP cards.

Look forward to your reply...

 

[scylla]

You won't be approved for a travel document - you have no humanitarian and compassionate reasons for failing to meet the residency requirement (financial reasons aren't accepted).

Your only real option is to try to re-enter Canada via land from the US. If you try this, it's still possible things may not work out. You may be reported for failing to meet the residency requirement - in which case you can expect your PR status to be revoked. If you are able to enter Canada without being reported, you will have to remain in Canada for 2 years without leaving before you can renew your PR cards. You won't be able to sponsor your children until this two year period is over and during that time it's quite possible you may have problems getting OHIP for your children - and also problems getting them into school. However you can certainly give it a try and see what happens.

The only other alternative is to officially give up your PR status and to apply for PR again from the start.

 

[Leon]

The only acceptable excuse for not meeting the residency obligation would be humanitarian grounds. Something like providing care for a critically ill relative or serious medical problems of your own.

Reasons like having a good job in your home country or not having been able to find a similar job in Canada are not accepted.

Like scylla said, if you don't have humanitarian grounds that you can prove for not being able to meet the RO, you will not be granted a travel document and your only chance would be to enter by land from the US. Your one child that does not have PR would have to get a TRV in order to enter Canada or you leave her behind for the time being and apply for it later.

Entering Canada with long expired PR cards will show immigration that you were not in Canada at least since 2009 and so you do not meet the RO and this makes it very likely that you will be reported on entry for being in breach of it.

If you get reported and do not appeal it, you will lose your PR and be asked to leave. If you do appeal, you stay a PR during the processing time which can take 1-2 years. You would during that time not be able to sponsor your child but you can renew your PR card for 1 year at a time. Staying in Canada during an appeal does not count towards the RO unless you win.

If you lose your appeal, you lose your PR.

If you somehow are allowed to enter Canada without being reported, you can revive your PR by staying for 2 years straight until you meet the RO again. You will not be able to sponsor your non-PR child during this time. If she is with you on a TRV, she will not get health care and you may have problems enrolling her in school. You will have to reactivate your SIN's in order to work and you may face challenges living in Canada without a valid PR card with things such as applying for jobs, getting a drivers license and getting health care. However, after 2 years, your PR is in good standing again and you can renew your PR cards and sponsor your daughter.

 

[david1697]

Re: PR card has expired - how can we enter canada and get PR re-instated?

2003 - We received Canadian Immigration visa under IM-1 Skilled Worker Class

2003- Arrived in Canada and stayed for a month
Feb, 2004 - Returned to Canada with the family. We returned to India after staying for about 1.5 months to attend to my parents

2005 - We were blessed with our daughter

Our PR cards expired in 2009

Over the years have taken roles in South East Asia, India and Middle East while my wife used to work with Bank of Nova Scotia earlier and is now an entrepreneur.

Question for you:
Over the years, we sought opportunities within the same Group; to move to Canada. Unfortunately, the recession of 2008, put this completely off track.

We are keen to move back to Canada - could you guide us through the process of getting our PR card's re-validated and also how could our daughter get Canadian Immigration visa to move with us.

We have also read a few posts talking about taking the US route to enter Canada. Would the border officer not object to our entering on long expired PR cards.

Even if we somehow manage to enter Canada, would our kids be able to get admission in schools....considering we have expired PR Cards, SIN cards and OHIP cards.

Look forward to your reply...

I don't know what is the objective reason for anecdotal claim that land POE at US border is any better than airport
In my personal experience the Land POE is the one that scrutinizes the most, even for no apparent reason.

During my landing the officer was so harsh and intimidating to me, that I lost my temper and started to push back (was ready to give up entire Landing and PR status right there and then, though I would certainly sue them to make sure they answered in court for anything that was beyond letter of law). Only after I became visibly agitated the other officer interjected and said "You can go!". No "Welcome to Canada!", no smile, as if I stole someone elses' COPR.

I had exact same experience when I came to Canada with COPR second time (didn't have a PR Card then). Again, was sent to secondary, again they tried to intimidate an bully me, few officers even surrounded me (thinking I would be scared of them??) , and this continued until I started to push back. Only then they let me go.

On a different occasion I flew to Canada. What a difference it was I can't even tell. I was prepared to be sent to secondary, this time I even printed the manuals from the CIC website to show what my rights as PR are, and I knew how to request the supervisor, how to ask for badge #, and later file a formal complaint , etc.
To my utter surprise it was nothing like land crossing, I was treated normally , like everyone else. Officer just looked at my PR and passport, made sure everything is in order and immediately let me go. No secondary inspection, no bullying or intimidation at all.

Some people suggest that the difference in treatment was due to PR Card (which shows the status, unlike COPR). But if this is true, then what difference does it make if one goes by land? If they send you to secondary (and they very well can if you don't have a valid PR), then chances are high you will get reported. Once reported, you know what happens next. So, don't hold your hopes high. Expect the worst, even if it doesn't happen.

Once in Canada (if you are lucky and allowed in without being reported), you must stay 2 years to restore your eligibility to apply for renewal of the PR Card and be able to sponsor anyone in your family who isn't PR yet.
Although some people report having problems with job, drivers license and etc., I wouldn't worry about it too much. COPR gives you right to everything like any other PR. In fact PR is like a passport and designed for travel. Inside Canada COPR should be more than enough to get a job, DL, admission to school and etc. If you encounter problems because you don't have a PR Card you can consult an immigration attorney. After all even freshly landed PR's and PR's who apply for renewal have to wait for months before they get their cards. Does it mean they can't drive a car, apply for a job or go to school in the meantime? I doubt.

Your real and only issue is the breach of RO. And in your case CIC has every reason to send you to secondary and to report you if you don't have a legally acceptable excuse of your absence from Canada.

 

[canadabuddy]

Thank you so much for quick reply.

We were planning to go together as a family and were planning to get a visitor visa for our daughter.
Our son is in grade 11 and in 1.5 year time he would be ready for college. If we don't get our PR cards re validated, our son will not be able to get a study visa.

we had also read on CIC's site that the minor child can appeal for re instating his PR as he was a child when parents decided to leave and he would now like to come back to canada, study and finally settle there....please throw some light on this option.

Again, coming back to the same question.....if we try and apply for a visitor visa for all of us, would the embassy in middle east know that we hold expired PR cards and deny the visitor visa.

If we get the visitor visa, then once in Canada can we apply for re validation of cards??

Alternatively, If we try and take the US land route and we get reported but allowed to enter, as PR holds the right to enter and appeal....Can our son appeal individually and in the meantime would they be allowed private school if not the public school??

Will we be able to find jobs on expired PR cards??

Thanks again...

 

[Leon]

Thank you so much for quick reply.

We were planning to go together as a family and were planning to get a visitor visa for our daughter.
Our son is in grade 11 and in 1.5 year time he would be ready for college. If we don't get our PR cards re validated, our son will not be able to get a study visa.

we had also read on CIC's site that the minor child can appeal for re instating his PR as he was a child when parents decided to leave and he would now like to come back to canada, study and finally settle there....please throw some light on this option.

Again, coming back to the same question.....if we try and apply for a visitor visa for all of us, would the embassy in middle east know that we hold expired PR cards and deny the visitor visa.

If we get the visitor visa, then once in Canada can we apply for re validation of cards??

Alternatively, If we try and take the US land route and we get reported but allowed to enter, as PR holds the right to enter and appeal....Can our son appeal individually and in the meantime would they be allowed private school if not the public school??

Will we be able to find jobs on expired PR cards??

Thanks again...

If you do have to appeal for your PR, your son could appeal separately on the grounds of having been removed from Canada as a minor. There is a special clause in immigration manuals on how they should handle these kids and a few years ago, it was pretty much guaranteed that they would keep their PR's. However, recently they seem to be clamping down on this and many are getting denied. Lets face it, it's not like your son could have strong ties to Canada and regret having to leave as you have only been in Canada for about 2.5 months of his life in 2003 and 2004 which was more than 10 years ago. Still, it's worth a try and with an appeal, he most certainly has a better chance of keeping his PR than you do. If he doesn't keep his PR, it would not prevent him from getting a study visa if you wish for him to study in Canada but as a non-PR, his tuition fees will be a lot higher than if he is.

If you try to apply for a visit visa for all of you, they will most certainly find out that you are PR and deny it based on that.

If you somehow did get a visit visa and returned to Canada, you can still not apply to renew your PR cards until you have spent 2 years because at current, you don't meet the RO so any attempt to renew your cards would result in a denial and very likely an examination of your not meeting the RO and cancellation of your PR status.

You should always be able to send your children to private school and public school should accept your son with an expired PR card and COPR but might not accept your daughter if she is here with a visit visa.

You will be able to get jobs with your expired PR cards. However, some employers may ask to see your cards as proof of your PR status. The PR card was originally just a travel document like a passport but it has become common to ask for it even when you are living in Canada to prove your status. If this happens to you, you may have to pass on that job unless you can convince the employer that your expired PR card does not mean that you are no longer a PR.