Postdocs - please help!

[drajay]

I have an ITA finally and qualify under CEC.

I did a postdoc for 6 months last year (I was supervised by a professor from Queen's university but did my research at a company). I have listed this position on my work experience.

NOC 4011 seems inappropriate as I did not teach or supervise any students. Could I use another NOC code, although my offer letter mentions that I was a postdoctoral fellow?

Not all postdocs in Canada get teaching opportunities. Was anyone successful on using NOC 4011? If you could share your experience, it would be really helpful.

Thank you,
Ajay

 

[rd160309]

You have to use 4011 code and can not use any other code if your job title is postdoctoral fellow. Many postdocs in Canada do not teach and are only involved in research. But since yours is only for 6 months, I assume you are not getting any points for this experience. How much of foreign work experience you have? I would suggest get a good reference letter from your supervisor and try to match your duties as closely as possible except for teaching.

 

[Janaki Iyer]

You have to use 4011 code and can not use any other code if your job title is postdoctoral fellow. Many postdocs in Canada do not teach and are only involved in research. But since yours is only for 6 months, I assume you are not getting any points for this experience. How much of foreign work experience you have? I would suggest get a good reference letter from your supervisor and try to match your duties as closely as possible except for teaching.

Hi rd160309, I see that you are using 4011, I assume you are a postdoc too. What faculty are you in? I have seen several posts on this forum that say that your reference letter should match the job duties mentioned under that NOC and the titles don't really matter. I'm a postdoc too, in Biological Sciences, and my job duties match the job duties given under 2121 (which is for biologists and scientists). I've created my profile with 2121, and will be getting a letter from my supervisor that can match the duties under 2121. My employment letter and my work permit state that I am a postdoc though. Will this create a conflict?

 

[drajay]

I have 6 months as a postdoctoral fellow and 6 months as a research scientist (in a company). So I do qualify with 1 year of Canadian experience.

I did not teach or perform most of the duties as on the job description of 4011. I wonder why NOC included postdoctoral fellows. I'm sure many postdocs do not teach. Sadly, the officers processing PR applications will not be aware of this and I fear that one's application will be rejected if there is no teaching/mentoring involved.

"Conduct research in field of specialization and publish findings in scholarly journals or books" - this is the only duty that I can list on my work experience letter, if I use 4011.

I read on another post that someone was rejected as CIC said that one duty alone does not represent the particular 4011 category well.

@ Janakai Iyer, my work too closely resembles the description of 2121. However my work permit is an open postgraduate work permit.

So could postdocs with the title "Postdoctoral fellow" in their offer letter use other NOC codes to match their duties (e.g. 2121)?

Any help will be appreciated. Thank you.

Ajay

 

[Janaki Iyer]

Hi Ajay,

I think going with 2121 is more appropriate because our job description and what we do everyday exactly matches the duties under that NOC. And I too have seen many people (not just postdocs) of this forum, that have had rejections because they had reference letters that matched just 1 or 2 duties under that NOC. Also, this is what I found on the IRCC website:
Click on the NOC title (to visit the NOC site) and make sure the main duties listed match what you did at your job (if they do not, you will need to find a different job title with duties that match yours).
So they are in fact asking us to make sure the main duties of the NOC match with what we do, and if they don't then find a different job title that matches our duties. I think the titles given under NOCs are just example titles.
With 2121, I can easily get a letter from my supervisor which would match 6-7 out of the 9 duties mentioned, but I will hardly get 1-2 out of the 9 in 4011.
And if you look at the educational requirements for 2121, it says doctoral degree in Biology (which I have, and I presume you have too). Also, of course 4011 says that too, but that's more directed towards professors and assistant/ associate professors I think.

So, that's my rationale behind using 2121 and not 4011.
Hope this helps. If you have any other thought, then we can discuss.

And I don't think the PGWP restricts you from applying for EE under CEC. You might not be able to claim the additional 50 points for valid jobs offers, because that requires the WP to be a closed one and the candidate meet certain other requirements.

 

[rd160309]

Hi Ajay,

I am PhD Chemical Engineering with 4 years of prior experience of teaching in India. In my case, I could not find any other related NOC code. As I see NOC 2121, if your job duties match more closely to that NOC by all means you can consider it. However, you should be very sure of this before applying.

Hope it helps.

 

[drajay]

Thank you Janaki, and rd160309!

I have written to Employment and Social Development Canada. They got back to me earlier and helped me select the 2121 code for my current job. So let me see what they say this time. I will keep you posted.

I am a medical doctor with a PhD in Biomedical engineering. In my current job (Research scientist) and during my postdoc, I am/was performing duties that closely fit the 2121 code. I also reckon that this code is more appropriate than 4011 for my postdoc position.

Just one issue:
When we get a letter from the postdoc supervisor, the job title will still be "Postdoctoral fellow" right? They probably won't give a title similar to the ones in 2121 on the work experience letter. So won't this be misinterpreted by the CIC person reviewing the application (due to discrepancy between the title and duties)?

Thank you,
Ajay

 

[Janaki Iyer]

Thank you Janaki, and rd160309!

I have written to Employment and Social Development Canada. They got back to me earlier and helped me select the 2121 code for my current job. So let me see what they say this time. I will keep you posted.

I am a medical doctor with a PhD in Biomedical engineering. In my current job (Research scientist) and during my postdoc, I am/was performing duties that closely fit the 2121 code. I also reckon that this code is more appropriate than 4011 for my postdoc position.

Just one issue:
When we get a letter from the postdoc supervisor, the job title will still be "Postdoctoral fellow" right? They probably won't give a title similar to the ones in 2121 on the work experience letter. So won't this be misinterpreted by the CIC person reviewing the application (due to discrepancy between the title and duties)?

Thank you,
Ajay

Hi Ajay,
I think it will be fine. I plan on taking a letter that states the following: Janaki Iyer has been working as a postdoctoral fellow at XXX under my supervision from ZZZ and has performed the following duties: {list the duties}.
And I think it is only appropriate for the superior to write a letter referring to us as postdocs because that's the title the university has given us. What would be the situation if the title postdoc didn't exist in the NOC list at all? I don't think that would make us ineligible and the university would not change the title in the reference letter just to make us eligible. So I think the VO probably don't care what our institutions call us as long as the job description given in the reference letter matches the NOC we select. Because I really think those are just example titles. Let us know if you get a reply from the ESDC.

 

[jes_ON]

I have written to Employment and Social Development Canada. They got back to me earlier and helped me select the 2121 code for my current job. So let me see what they say this time. I will keep you posted.

I am a medical doctor with a PhD in Biomedical engineering. In my current job (Research scientist) and during my postdoc, I am/was performing duties that closely fit the 2121 code. I also reckon that this code is more appropriate than 4011 for my postdoc position.

Just one issue:
When we get a letter from the postdoc supervisor, the job title will still be "Postdoctoral fellow" right? They probably won't give a title similar to the ones in 2121 on the work experience letter. So won't this be misinterpreted by the CIC person reviewing the application (due to discrepancy between the title and duties)?

CIC used to advise post-doctoral fellows NOT to select NOC 4011, but to select the NOC that fits with their field. I just tried to find a link to that for you, and it looks like their advice has evolved:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/temp/work/opinion/policy.asp

"Occupational code

For post-doctoral fellows who are employed by a Canadian university or educational institution, the 2011 NOC code should be 4011.

For post-doctoral fellows who are employed by a Canadian entity that is not an educational institution, their field of specialty should be used. For example, a geologist with a doctorate may work as a geologist and not as a post-doctoral fellow, in which case the 2011 NOC code would be 2113."

Since you worked at a company (I presume that means the company is your employer and will write the letter of employment), you should use NOC 2121.

The job title is fine, but in addition to Post-doctoral fellow, it should say either the department or the focus of the research - e.g. "Post-doctoral fellow, Biomechanical Engineering."

 

[Janaki Iyer]

CIC used to advise post-doctoral fellows NOT to select NOC 4011, but to select the NOC that fits with their field. I just tried to find a link to that for you, and it looks like their advice has evolved:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/temp/work/opinion/policy.asp

"Occupational code

For post-doctoral fellows who are employed by a Canadian university or educational institution, the 2011 NOC code should be 4011

This makes me worried. My employer is a university but my job duties match 2121 and not 4011. Any thoughts on what I should be using?

 

[jes_ON]

This makes me worried. My employer is a university but my job duties match 2121 and not 4011. Any thoughts on what I should be using?

LOL, you should be using the one advised by IRCC.

If in doubt, include a letter of explanation why you chose the NOC but think 2121 is a better fit.

 

[vsoftco]

CIC used to advise post-doctoral fellows NOT to select NOC 4011, but to select the NOC that fits with their field. I just tried to find a link to that for you, and it looks like their advice has evolved:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/temp/work/opinion/policy.asp

"Occupational code

For post-doctoral fellows who are employed by a Canadian university or educational institution, the 2011 NOC code should be 4011.

For post-doctoral fellows who are employed by a Canadian entity that is not an educational institution, their field of specialty should be used. For example, a geologist with a doctorate may work as a geologist and not as a post-doctoral fellow, in which case the 2011 NOC code would be 2113."

Since you worked at a company (I presume that means the company is your employer and will write the letter of employment), you should use NOC 2121.

The job title is fine, but in addition to Post-doctoral fellow, it should say either the department or the focus of the research - e.g. "Post-doctoral fellow, Biomechanical Engineering."

I applied in 2015 and used my speciality NOC (2111) and got PR without any issues. 4011 was a very poor match for me (less than 20% match). I heard lots of contradicting things about this whole mess-up with the postdoc NOC, so my suggestion (in case OP decides to go with 4011) is to at least attach a detailed letter of explanation as to why you picked 4011 NOC even if it doesn't match the duties.

 

[Janaki Iyer]

I applied in 2015 and used my speciality NOC (2111) and got PR without any issues. 4011 was a very poor match for me (less than 20% match). I heard lots of contradicting things about this whole mess-up with the postdoc NOC, so my suggestion (in case OP decides to go with 4011) is to at least attach a detailed letter of explanation as to why you picked 4011 NOC even if it doesn't match the duties.

Did you work at a University/ academic institution?

 

[vsoftco]

Did you work at a University/ academic institution?

Yes, university.

 

[Janaki Iyer]

Yes, university.

Thanks! I'm trying to get it clarified with my supervisor.