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police clearence for citzinship

ummi

Star Member
Mar 29, 2012
175
9
i need your help for the following case :
police clearance is required if i resided outside canada for 183 days in last 4 years,after the new changes will it become 183 days of absence in last 3 years or it will be same. I am asking as it takes too long to get a certificate from back home. If anyone can please guide me what was the requirement before when citzenship requirement was 3 out of 5 years. I need to plan and apply for police clearance accordingly.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
3,183
Odds are that the application will continue to require police certificates based on total of six months presence in another country during the four years previous to applying.

In the final version of Bill C-6 I do not see any changes to subsection 22(3) in the Citizenship Act.

To be clear, it is subsection 22(3) in the Citizenship Act which prescribes that a person is prohibited from being granted citizenship if within the previous four years they have been convicted of a crime outside Canada if that crime would be an indictable offence in Canada.

The obvious purpose of the requirement to include, with a citizenship application, a police certificate for any country in which the applicant spent a total of six months within the preceding four years, is to put the burden on the applicant to prove no convictions outside Canada for that four year time period.. The law might allow IRCC to make such a requirement for any country visited during the preceding four years, but IRCC has decided to impose the requirement only for countries in which the applicant spent a total of 183 or more days .

What is required to be included with the application is an administrative determination (but must be consistent with the Citizenship Act and respective Regulations). While a new application form should be coming soon, to be followed later by another version when provisions like the 3/5 actually take effect, I would not expect there to be any changes to this part of the application since, again, the underlying provision itself (subsection 22(3) in the Act) has not changed.
 
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Vicky333

Star Member
Jun 19, 2017
60
13
Hi! Long time reader, first-time poster. Does anyone know HOW to calculate the 183 days? I have been reading the CIC website but it doesn't help.

If I leave Canada to go to the USA on Friday and return on Sunday, that currently counts as 2 days of absence from Canada.
Does that count as 2 days toward the 183 days in the USA ? Or 3?
 

NewPRReciever

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Jun 11, 2014
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Hi! Long time reader, first-time poster. Does anyone know HOW to calculate the 183 days? I have been reading the CIC website but it doesn't help.

If I leave Canada to go to the USA on Friday and return on Sunday, that currently counts as 2 days of absence from Canada.
Does that count as 2 days toward the 183 days in the USA ? Or 3?

From what I know, it will be counted as 3 days, and you can get your ATIP from the border agency to confirm your entry exit dates, this is only available for your border crosses that occurred by road, hope you kept track of all your flights :D.
 

ummi

Star Member
Mar 29, 2012
175
9
Odds are that the application will continue to require police certificates based on total of six months presence in another country during the four years previous to applying.

In the final version of Bill C-6 I do not see any changes to subsection 22(3) in the Citizenship Act.

To be clear, it is subsection 22(3) in the Citizenship Act which prescribes that a person is prohibited from being granted citizenship if within the previous four years they have been convicted of a crime outside Canada if that crime would be an indictable offence in Canada.

The obvious purpose of the requirement to include, with a citizenship application, a police certificate for any country in which the applicant spent a total of six months within the preceding four years, is to put the burden on the applicant to prove no convictions outside Canada for that four year time period.. The law might allow IRCC to make such a requirement for any country visited during the preceding four years, but IRCC has decided to impose the requirement only for countries in which the applicant spent a total of 183 or more days .

What is required to be included with the application is an administrative determination (but must be consistent with the Citizenship Act and respective Regulations). While a new application form should be coming soon, to be followed later by another version when provisions like the 3/5 actually take effect, I would not expect there to be any changes to this part of the application since, again, the underlying provision itself (subsection 22(3) in the Act) has not changed.
Thanks so much for the detail answere. will apply clearance soon.
 

hmirzaei

Star Member
Jul 14, 2016
77
1
Thanks so much for the detail answere. will apply clearance soon.
I am also in the US waiting to apply under C-6.

Do you know the exact procedure to get the police certificate? I downloaded a few forms based on instructions in CIC website. Do we just print out fingerprints the paper form ourselves?? Or do we have to go to an office or somewhere?
 

uncomfortable

Hero Member
May 11, 2017
234
96
From what I know, it will be counted as 3 days, and you can get your ATIP from the border agency to confirm your entry exit dates, this is only available for your border crosses that occurred by road, hope you kept track of all your flights :D.
I don't think so.

With regards to the days of absence from Canada, the definition is very specific. Form CIT 0407 explains:

Example:
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on the same day; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 6; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 12; total number of days absent = 6


Therefore if you leave on Friday and come back on Sunday, that counts as 1 day of absence from Canada.

What is not explained is whether that trip counts as 1 day of presence in the US, or 2, or 3. That might affect whether someone needs to provide a US police certificate with their application or not. If you take multiple short trips, whether the "travel day" counts or not makes a considerable difference.

The Instruction Guide on the CIC website provides different examples:

Example 1

In the past four (4) years, you took one (1) trip to France that lasted 200 days. You would answer “Yes” to the question and you would need to provide a police certificate from France.

Example 2

In the past four (4) years, you took 10 trips to the United States of America (USA). Each trip lasted three (3) weeks, for a total of 210 days. You would answer “Yes” to the question and you would need to provide a police certificate from the USA.

Example 3

In the past four (4) years, you spent one year (365 days) working in Singapore. While working in Singapore, you took a trip to Malaysia (10 days) and Thailand (10 days). You would answer “Yes” to the question and you would need to provide a police certificate from Singapore. You would not need to provide police certificates from Malaysia or Thailand.

Example 4

In the past four (4) years, you took one (1) trip to Europe where you visited Portugal (5 days), Spain (7 days), France (10 days), Belgium (3 days), Netherlands (3 days), Germany (21 days), Switzerland (7 days) and Italy (21 days). You took a second trip to Europe where you visited Ireland (14 days), Scotland (14 days) and England (21 days). You went to Germany for a business trip that lasted 60 days. The total time you were outside of Canada was 186 days but you were not in a single country for 183 days or more. You would answer “No” to the question and you would not need to provide police certificates from any of the countries.


But nowhere it is stated HOW the duration of a trip is calculated and/or how the days of presence in a foreign country should be calculated.

If you use the same principle that is used to calculate the absence from Canada and reverse it, it would appear that any day where a part of it is spent in a country counts as a presence in that country, so travel days count as "presence days" in both countries (provided that the travel lasts less than 24 hours).

I'm trying to figure it out, but no literature seems to exist. It should be possible to clarify this, as well as clarifying whether a transit in a country C airport while flying from country A to country B counts as "presence" in country C.

If anyone has any info, please post.
 
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NewPRReciever

Full Member
Jun 11, 2014
28
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Category........
Job Offer........
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I don't think so.

With regards to the days of absence from Canada, the definition is very specific. Form CIT 0407 explains:

Example:
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on the same day; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 6; total number of days absent = 0
You leave Canada on July 5 and return to Canada on July 12; total number of days absent = 6


Therefore if you leave on Friday and come back on Sunday, that counts as 1 day of absence from Canada.

What is not explained is whether that trip counts as 1 day of presence in the US, or 2, or 3. That might affect whether someone needs to provide a US police certificate with their application or not. If you take multiple short trips, whether the "travel day" counts or not makes a considerable difference.

The Instruction Guide on the CIC website provides different examples:

Example 1

In the past four (4) years, you took one (1) trip to France that lasted 200 days. You would answer “Yes” to the question and you would need to provide a police certificate from France.

Example 2

In the past four (4) years, you took 10 trips to the United States of America (USA). Each trip lasted three (3) weeks, for a total of 210 days. You would answer “Yes” to the question and you would need to provide a police certificate from the USA.

Example 3

In the past four (4) years, you spent one year (365 days) working in Singapore. While working in Singapore, you took a trip to Malaysia (10 days) and Thailand (10 days). You would answer “Yes” to the question and you would need to provide a police certificate from Singapore. You would not need to provide police certificates from Malaysia or Thailand.

Example 4

In the past four (4) years, you took one (1) trip to Europe where you visited Portugal (5 days), Spain (7 days), France (10 days), Belgium (3 days), Netherlands (3 days), Germany (21 days), Switzerland (7 days) and Italy (21 days). You took a second trip to Europe where you visited Ireland (14 days), Scotland (14 days) and England (21 days). You went to Germany for a business trip that lasted 60 days. The total time you were outside of Canada was 186 days but you were not in a single country for 183 days or more. You would answer “No” to the question and you would not need to provide police certificates from any of the countries.


But nowhere it is stated HOW the duration of a trip is calculated and/or how the days of presence in a foreign country should be calculated.

If you use the same principle that is used to calculate the absence from Canada and reverse it, it would appear that any day where a part of it is spent in a country counts as a presence in that country, so travel days count as "presence days" in both countries (provided that the travel lasts less than 24 hours).

I'm trying to figure it out, but no literature seems to exist. It should be possible to clarify this, as well as clarifying whether a transit in a country C airport while flying from country A to country B counts as "presence" in country C.

If anyone has any info, please post.

I really hope you are right, and I truly appreciate the effort levels on that reply. My answer was simply based on the answer I got from the CBSA agent. Quoting them "We go by the entry day and exit day, if you came on a sunday and left on a monday, that is 2 days... even if it is 11:00 PM sunday to 11:00 AM monday"... then again this was 1 agent, So my sample size is pretty low.
 

uncomfortable

Hero Member
May 11, 2017
234
96
I really hope you are right, and I truly appreciate the effort levels on that reply. My answer was simply based on the answer I got from the CBSA agent. Quoting them "We go by the entry day and exit day, if you came on a sunday and left on a monday, that is 2 days... even if it is 11:00 PM sunday to 11:00 AM monday"... then again this was 1 agent, So my sample size is pretty low.
Well, that agent should really read the rules. What I wrote is taken straight from the official documents, and leaves no room for interpretation. That's everything that needs to be said about that, no room for other opinions.

The other issue (how to count days of presence in a foreign country to understand whether a police certificate is needed or not) that I am trying to figure out is more tricky, because in the absence of official explanations, it will depend on how every officer interprets it: as you have just shown, every agent has their own "take" even on a matter that is clarified by official documents, let alone the more ambiguous ones.

I will try asking for info and I will post something if I find out something interesting, but my fear is that if I ask the same question to 5 different agents, I will get 2 or 3 different answers.
If it isn't too much of an inconvenience, I think it is safer to produce the police certificate anyway if you are over the limit with the most disadvantageous calculation method, just to be on the safe side and not to have the application delayed. In my case, the US procedure is quite clear, and the $18 cost is very reasonable; but there are countries where these police certificates are a nightmare to obtain, therefore it would be useful to have a definite answer on this.
 

Vicky333

Star Member
Jun 19, 2017
60
13
I have decided that due to the uncertainty, I will just go ahead and get a police certificate for the USA.

I often go down Friday at 9pm and return Sunday at 9pm - only 2 actual days out of Canada, but by the calendar that counts as 3 days.

So 3 days * 1-2 times a month * 4 years definitely puts me over the 183 days.

But 2 days * 1-2 times a month * 4 years puts me just under. Maddening!
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
3,183
I have decided that due to the uncertainty, I will just go ahead and get a police certificate for the USA.

I often go down Friday at 9pm and return Sunday at 9pm - only 2 actual days out of Canada, but by the calendar that counts as 3 days.

So 3 days * 1-2 times a month * 4 years definitely puts me over the 183 days.

But 2 days * 1-2 times a month * 4 years puts me just under. Maddening!
Wise move. Note, for example, this recent post in another topic:

During the interview the IO asked me to get a police certificate from the US (although my trips totaled no more than 33 days in the last four years). She marked a check requesting this certificate on a CIT0520 and handed it to me.
As I have more than occasionally reminded, an applicant can be asked to provide a police certificate for any country even if the amount of time spent there was less than six months. Moreover, if there is more than one way to interpret a question or how the question applies to the applicant's particular situation, it is rarely if ever a good idea to go with the interpretation which justifies an evasive response or otherwise omitting information which would be responsive to the other interpretation. It really is not about how a question technically can be interpreted, but about what information IRCC is asking for.

While it does not appear that Alpina740 will incur an inordinately long delay, obviously this did delay the process significantly (approaching five months since interview and oath still not scheduled). And for some it could mean a much longer delay or further inconveniences.

A technical clarification: Friday evening to Sunday evening trip to the U.S. only counts as one day (Saturday) outside Canada. But yes, it should be counted as three days in the U.S. In this regard, the person is in Canada on the day of exit, Friday, so it counts as a day in Canada. But it is also a day in the U.S., since the individual is indeed in the U.S. that day. Much like Sunday now counts as a day in Canada as well. A person can easily be in more than one country on any given calendar day.
 
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uncomfortable

Hero Member
May 11, 2017
234
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A technical clarification: Friday evening to Sunday evening trip to the U.S. only counts as one day (Saturday) outside Canada. But yes, it should be counted as three days in the U.S. In this regard, the person is in Canada on the day of exit, Friday, so it counts as a day in Canada. But it is also a day in the U.S., since the individual is indeed in the U.S. that day. Much like Sunday now counts as a day in Canada as well. A person can easily be in more than one country on any given calendar day.
Based on this interpretation, which seems to be the most consistent with the principles applied elsewhere, if at any time during a day an individual is present in a country, that day is counted as a day of presence in that country.

There are a few gray areas, like for example how it is counted if an individual switches flights in a country C while traveling between country A and country B without actually entering the country, i.e. remaining in the airside zone of the airport, before passport control. But it is unlikely to make a huge difference in the 183 days mark "around which" a police certificate is required.

I find it quite puzzling that some applicants are requested police certificates even for countries when they have stayed for a relatively short time: I understand the principle of analyzing each case individually and requesting information based on everyone's specific circumstances, but given the difficulty of obtaining these documents, it makes the whole process akin to hitting a moving target. Of course this could be eliminated by providing certificates for every country visited, but this is pure insanity: it would be a full time job, and we all have lives...
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
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There are a few gray areas, like for example how it is counted if an individual switches flights in a country C while traveling between country A and country B without actually entering the country, i.e. remaining in the airside zone of the airport, before passport control. But it is unlikely to make a huge difference in the 183 days mark "around which" a police certificate is required.
You know, you have criticized my explanations related to this as patronizing, but I have made an effort to illuminate how the process actually works as best we can discern.

There really is no gray area. It is not about some potential vagueness in how a question applies to some unusual factual situation. It is simply an outright mistake to parse the questions and instructions this way.

The requirement to submit a police certificate with the application depends on whether or not IRCC reasonably asks for it. It does NOT depend on precisely how much time was spent in a country. It just happens that IRCC currently has administratively established a 183 day threshold for requiring the police certificate upfront, to be included in the application.

What really matters is whether IRCC perceives the extent or nature of time in another country as warranting proof there are no charges pending, and no convictions within the preceding four years, in that country. 183 days total in a country automatically triggers the request for proof. But as the referenced report illustrates, other factors can also trigger the request for proof.

IRCC's approach could be challenged. Providing a police certificate is NOT a statutory requirement for a grant of citizenship. Not even a regulation prescribes that a police certificate is a requirement. The question would be whether IRCC requiring the submission of the police certificate is reasonable.

If challenged, the current practice and policy will almost certainly be determined to be reasonable. It is directly related to what is a statutory requirement: proof that the applicant has no charges pending or, within the preceding four years, any convictions in another country. And, moreover, if the applicant asserts it is inordinately difficult to obtain the police certificate, IRCC specifically allows the application to be processed without submitting a police certificate, subject to whether IRCC is subsequently satisfied with the applicant's submissions.

One can theorize situations in which IRCC might make unreasonable demands for police certificates. That will not illuminate the appropriate way to respond to the item about spending 183 or more days in a country.

As for your hypothetical, it is posed as if every nuance in facts has a definitive interpretation. That is not how these processes work. Most applications include information which more or less amounts to the applicant's best response given the applicant's understanding of the question and instructions, and the applicant's best judgment as to how to respond based on his or her facts. Some may describe the scores and scores of potentially iffy calls as falling into a gray area, but that is missing the point.

As I have repeatedly illuminated, foremost the applicant needs to approach answering questions based on the applicant's best understanding of what is requested, what is required. If there is more than one arguable or plausible interpretation or way to answer the question, the best approach is to be forthcoming, which is to say respond based on an interpretation that results in giving more not less information, and then be honest, accurate, complete, and forthcoming. Any other approach tends to invite problems. In particular, it is generally a mistake to parse a question, identify an arguably plausible interpretation which would allow the applicant to omit some information, and proceed on that basis to omit that information. Bad idea. Really. This is not rocket science. It is not merely common sense either. This is how the process works.

But as I have acknowledged, sure, applicants can and many do slide by. So sure, an applicant who has spent 171 days in the UK and who has also transited an additional dozen times through Heathrow on the way to and from other destinations, could check "no" to the item about spending a total of 183 days in another country. But that would be stupid. It might slide by. Good chance it would slide by. But it would still be stupid. I could go further into the weeds explaining this, why it would be stupid, but I'll let it suffice to note that if IRCC perceives an applicant is dodging questions, deliberating avoiding the disclosure of information, things tend to go off the rails hard and fast. Check yes and submit the police certificate. Or, if it is a country for which obtaining a police certificate would be excessively difficult, check yes and explain why a certificate is not submitted. There is a box provided precisely for that purpose.

At some point what is hypothetical is really merely theoretical, not at all realistic.

Otherwise, an effort to avoid having to do something (like obtain a somewhat difficult to get police certificate) tends to cause more delay and difficulty, not less. Rather than avoiding a hassle, parsing a question to justify omitting something will more often result in a bigger hassle. Again, this is not mere common sense. This is a real life observation based on seeing, literally, how things have actually worked in scores and scores of cases, based not just on anecdotal sources like forum reports, but also based on reading dozens and dozens of official accounts of actual cases.
 
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Alpina740

Member
Jul 8, 2017
14
6
I have decided that due to the uncertainty, I will just go ahead and get a police certificate for the USA
I'm not sure this would be a wise move. Here's my take on this:

A few weeks before the interview I was reading quite a lot about being proactive with the police certificates. The US certificate requires that you do a fingerprint on a card and attach it to the request/payment form. That card has to be filled out, signed and stamped by the agent who does your fingerprints. There's a section on the card that asks for the reason the certificate is being requested, and then another section on the form that asks who is requesting it. If your RQ/CIT0520/CIC letter is not submitted during your fingerprinting, the agent will not fill that section out with "CIC or Citizenship" but rather with "I-PR". I forgot what that stood for but I'm confident it's something along the lines of "personal request". You'll still get your certificate, but you want to be sure of 2 things: 1- that the CIC IO will accept it, and 2- that the date the background check is completed can fall after the date CIC requested it. I did exactly that despite the agent warning me about it (certificate was from greece). Where I got incredibly lucky was that they were so backlogged in greece that by the time they started processing my request I had already done my interview.

If you choose to wait for CIC to request it, send them a letter a week or two later explaining that you have made the request, with a copy of the fingerprinting receipt and the form/tracking number. They only give you 30 days to present it but it takes a little longer.
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,437
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I'm not sure this would be a wise move. Here's my take on this:
Note, the application itself requires the applicant to submit the police certificate if the applicant spent the threshold amount of time in the country. Or provide an explanation as to why a police certificate cannot be obtained.

In contrast, in your situation, a mere 33 days in the country, there would be no reason to anticipate the U.S. police certificate request.

For Vicky333 the real question was whether or not to include entry and exit dates in calculating the amount of time in the U.S. Either way, it would have been at least very close. So the decision to include the certificate was a wise choice, particularly since the obvious way to respond would be to include entry and exit dates in the calculation.

Otherwise, while you describe a potential pitfall, and more so because without a reason for the request the U.S. response time can be a problem, again the application form itself and the checklist make the request and this is a sufficient reason for the U.S. to timely provide a response.

In terms of the date of the clearance, while there are no specific instructions applicable to the citizenship applicant (the PDIs are mostly about providing certificates for visa applications), generally a certificate issued within the preceding six months suffices, and older certificates will suffice so long as they are dated after the last time the individual was in that country (for visa application purposes the instructions say after the individual last lived in that country, but for citizenship better to go with last visit or at least within last six months).

And of course it is entirely possible that a reason later arises for IRCC's request. Thus, for example, if there is a false-positive hit for the applicant with a date reference since the date the application was made, it is indeed fairly likely that IRCC would ask for a police certificate, or if one had been submitted with the application, for a more current one. Other circumstances might trigger the request while an application is in process, but we see very few reports of this. The majority of reports are from applicants who should have included one with the application itself (usually because they misinterpreted the instructions and responded without adding together days from different trips).

In any event, for Vicky333 it appears that a U.S. needed to be submitted with the application itself.
 
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