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Police Certificate

Patrik BC

Member
Oct 13, 2017
11
2
The GOOD NEWS; for these particular items (Item 9.c and Item 10.b), a "no" response contrary to fact will not likely be deemed misrepresentation (with caveats of course):

Potential misrepresentation: The most serious consequence for getting something like this wrong is having the response determined to be a material misrepresentation.

On its face, if an applicant who was living abroad at any time during the preceding five years (the "eligibility period") answers "no" to a question (Item 9.c) asking whether he or she lived outside Canada during the eligibility period, that answer is contrary to the facts. Deliberately responding contrary to fact is, of course, misrepresentation.

Likewise, on its face, if an applicant who spent a total of 183 days in a country other than Canada, during the preceding four years, answers "no" to a question (Item 10.b.) asking whether he or she was in another country for a total of 183 days during the preceding four years, that answer is contrary to the facts. Again, deliberately responding contrary to fact is, of course, misrepresentation.

The odds of either response being deemed a material misrepresentation (which would be grounds for denying the application and barring the applicant from being eligible for the next five years, and technically could be grounds for criminal prosecution) are LOW, so long as (of course) the applicant has otherwise completed the form and accurately declared relevant information as to address history and the presence calculation, and in respect to Item 10.b. the "no" response does not appear to be an overt attempt to avoid submitting a police certificate from a country in which the applicant has some criminal history. (The applicant has otherwise submitted all the relevant and accurate information, notwithstanding the erroneous "no" response, so there is no reason to suspect let alone believe there is an effort to deceive or conceal.)

That said, there is a huge difference between these two items, that is between Item 10.b and Item 9.c, having to do with what a "yes" or "no" entails, in how the response affects the application:
-- A false "no" response to Item 9.c does not benefit the applicant in any way. It does not deter IRCC from making further inquiries into the applicant's eligibility for citizenship.
-- In contrast, a false "no" response to Item 10.b purports to exclude the applicant from having to submit a police certificate and could deter IRCC from further inquiries into questions about the applicant's history in another country.

In other words, a false "no" response to Item 10.b may be perceived to be an attempt to dodge IRCC's requirements and assessment of the applicant, and if IRCC interpreted the response to be such an effort, obviously that could trigger a determination of misrepresentation.

It warrants noting that there are various degrees of action taken regarding misstatements of fact and perceived misrepresentation.

Not all misstatements of fact are misrepresentation. Innocent and incidental misstatements of fact can range from misunderstanding the question or instructions (checking "no" to Item 9.c despite having lived abroad for example), to minor, incidental mistakes, which will generally not cause any problems.

In some instances a misstatement of fact may be significant enough it has an impact on IRCC's perceptions about the applicant's credibility, in effect compromising the applicant's reliability as a reporter of facts, in which case it is not a misrepresentation unless it was intended to deceive or conceal, but it can negatively impact IRCC decision-making, such as in making it more difficult for the applicant to prove this or that qualification. Big but innocently made mistakes in accounting for time abroad fall into this category.

If IRCC perceives reason to believe the applicant deliberately made a misstatement of fact (or deliberately omitted material information), it is a much more serious situation. Depending on the facts and circumstances, including the extent to which IRCC perceives there was an overt effort to deceive or conceal material information from IRCC, the consequences can range from IRCC treating the applicant's input more of less skeptically (from somewhat skeptically, to perhaps so skeptically that none of the applicant's input is believed except to the extent it is directly corroborated by objective evidence or otherwise established through other sources) to a formal determination of misrepresentation, the latter constituting a stand alone ground for denying the application and resulting in a five year prohibition.

A contrary to fact response of "no," to Item 10.b or Item 9.c, should easily fall into the category of misunderstanding the question or instructions, or an otherwise innocent mistake, which will generally not cause any problems. Again, this is so long as the applicant has otherwise completed the form and accurately declared relevant information as to address history and the presence calculation, and in respect to Item 10.b. the "no" response does not appear to be an overt attempt to avoid submitting a police certificate from a country in which the applicant has some criminal history.


Other potential consequences:

Potential return of application: The applicant who accurately checks "yes" to either of these items and does NOT submit the respectively requested certificate or form, or alternatively provide an explanation as to why the respectively requested certificate or form is not submitted, RISKS the return of the application as incomplete. Other than the inherent delay due to this and some incidental costs related to shipping the application again, this is NO BIG DEAL.



The best way to avoid this RISK, is to check "yes" and include an explanation. This will almost certainly work for Item 9.c but may or may not work for Item 10.b. For Item 10.b, there is also a RISK that even if the explanation allows the application to pass completeness screening, IRCC may later specifically request a police certificate.


BOTTOM-LINE:

If I understand what is proposed by @Patrik BC and a few others, that it is OK for some applicants to check "no" in response to Item 10.b despite having in fact been in another country 183 or more days during the preceding four years (that for this or that reason, some of that time does not apply), that I am very certain is at least a BAD idea. How bad will vary, as discussed above.
Thank you for taking the time and effort to write such a detailed post. I hope it will clear a lot of confusion for most of the people.
Just to be cleared I did not propose anything. I just shared my experience with the IRCC agent and how I personally submitted my application.
The IRCC agent told me and I quote : "There is no need to provide any police certificates because we are taking into consideration the period of time after you received your PR status. During this period of time if you were outside Canada for more the 183 you will be required to provide a police certificate from that specific country."
As a conclusion I would like to thank everybody for their input and apologize if I caused any drama but it wasn't my intention.
As soon as I will receive any news about my application (either good or bad) I will post them here. Until then I hope everybody will be successful with their citizenship application and enjoy your time in this beautiful country.
 
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Whocares

Hero Member
Sep 20, 2010
580
109
I addressed what I called a "huge difference" in items 9.c and 10.b but nonetheless recognize the quandary which arises in respect to 9.c, that for many applicants the options are:
-- answer "no" contrary to fact, or
-- answer "no" contrary to fact and add an explanation, or
-- answer "yes" and add an explanation for why CIT 0177 is not submitted, or
-- answer "yes" and include CIT 0177 with NA or explanation

To be clear, you appear to be recommending that for item 9.c even if the applicant lived outside Canada during the eligibility period, the applicant nonetheless simply check "no" (unless the applicant did so pursuant to Crown Service). That is, you appear to recommend responding contrary to fact without submitting an explanation.

My guess is that will be OK, but not because this is the right way to respond, but because I think IRCC will recognize the problem with this item and understand the situation based on other information in the application, and thus not conclude the "no" response is an inconsistency or misrepresentation, but will effectively ignore it.

In general, it is risky to respond contrary to fact.

I totally agree with you. I got what you meant now. When should we know if our selections is ok or no, is it dealt by the processing offices or the one in NS Sydney? I do not get the difference between the 2 locations.
 

ChippyBoy

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2016
375
168
I addressed what I called a "huge difference" in items 9.c and 10.b but nonetheless recognize the quandary which arises in respect to 9.c, that for many applicants the options are:
-- answer "no" contrary to fact, or
-- answer "no" contrary to fact and add an explanation, or
-- answer "yes" and add an explanation for why CIT 0177 is not submitted, or
-- answer "yes" and include CIT 0177 with NA or explanation

To be clear, you appear to be recommending that for item 9.c even if the applicant lived outside Canada during the eligibility period, the applicant nonetheless simply check "no" (unless the applicant did so pursuant to Crown Service). That is, you appear to recommend responding contrary to fact without submitting an explanation.

My guess is that will be OK, but not because this is the right way to respond, but because I think IRCC will recognize the problem with this item and understand the situation based on other information in the application, and thus not conclude the "no" response is an inconsistency or misrepresentation, but will effectively ignore it.

In general, it is risky to respond contrary to fact.
How speedily, in your opinion, could one reasonably hope that CIC/IRCC, having evidently failed in the drafting & double-checking of that awkward question, that they might publish a revised/corrected version of the Form?
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
When should we know if our selections is ok or no, is it dealt by the processing offices or the one in NS Sydney? I do not get the difference between the 2 locations.
It will be awhile before we get even reports about returned applications, let alone about how things go down stream from there. Reports of AOR should help, but are far from conclusive since there are so many variables involved.

The Sydney office receives citizenship applications, screens the application for completeness, opens/enters complete applications in GCMS, makes the referral to the RCMP and CSIS for background clearances, puts the application in-process and sends the applicant notice of AOR and in-process status.

Beginning in 2012 the Sydney office also conducted triage screening and determined whether applicants should be issued a pre-test RQ. It is not clear if this triage step is still conducted in Sydney. My guess is that it is, but this is all done behind the curtains which are behind closed doors, so I do not really know.

If the triage screening is still done, applicants issued pre-test RQ will get that from Sydney but most will be directed to submit their response to a local office. Those applications, and those which pass the triage screening will then be referred to the local office for processing the application.

If the triage screening is not done now, all in-process applications (with some exceptions) will be referred/sent to the respective local office (mostly depending on postal code of applicant's residential address).

A processing agent in the local office will review the application, prepare the file for the test and interview, initiate collateral procedures if necessary (FP requests for example; noting that FP requests may also be issued by Sydney before the application is referred to the local office), and schedule the test and interview, conduct the test and interview, and prepare the application for review by a Citizenship Officer, who will assess and decide the case. If the decision is to grant citizenship, the local office schedules the oath ceremony.

There are, of course, some side roads which can divert the application off this routine path. FP requests. RQ-lite or full-blown RQ, specific requests of other sorts (including requests for police certificates), referrals for inquiries or outright investigations. Lots of variable paths possible for non-routine applications.

Overall: Sydney receives and starts the process. The detailed review and assessment procedures are done in the local office.
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
3,183
How speedily, in your opinion, could one reasonably hope that CIC/IRCC, having evidently failed in the drafting & double-checking of that awkward question, that they might publish a revised/corrected version of the Form?
Frankly, I have no idea.

As I oft expressed, I anticipated more than a few wrinkles in the roll out of the changes. But the number and scope of the issues with the form has caught me by surprise.

It is a complicated form. A dynamic form this complicated will not be easy to revise. I would expect IRCC to attempt taking one shot at doing all the necessary revisions rather than issue a sequence of partial fixes. But I really have no idea how the government is approaching this . . . other than I am confident there will be a concerted effort to work with what is already in use, until fixes are in place, which will require IRCC to exercise a good deal of flexibility and discretion. Hopefully I will not be negatively surprised in how it actually goes in this regard.

There are many items which have real problems. Item 16 I have mentioned in other topics, but the problems with it have been barely talked about. The way the "eligibility period" works is bound to be confusing in a variety of situations. Consternation and confusion about having to account for address history, work history, and so on, for time periods prior to an applicant's first arrival in Canada, abounds. Some of the columns in Q 11 are, at best, vague. There is no consensus about how to respond to Item 6. And more.

Unfortunately, the problems with the form is almost certain to cause delays in processing. Ouch.

And I should acknowledge, despite what many see as obvious problems with the form, there is no guarantee that IRCC will actually fix these things in the near future. I expect they will. But that is far from a sure thing.

I do not mean to paint a dark sky, but there were serious problems raised about the residency requirement back in the 1980s, leading to numerous conflicting decisions in the Federal Court, leading to conflicting and contrary results, lack of predictability, and outright injustices. Over the next several DECADES various fixes were proposed but none got done. Even when Federal Court justices began overtly demanding that Parliament do something to fix the problem, years and years went by. Bill C-24 finally resolved the biggest problems, but that took over three decades to happen. Bureaucracies can be incredibly slow to adapt.
 
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ChippyBoy

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2016
375
168
Frankly, I have no idea.

As I oft expressed, I anticipated more than a few wrinkles in the roll out of the changes. But the number and scope of the issues with the form has caught me by surprise.

It is a complicated form. A dynamic form this complicated will not be easy to revise. I would expect IRCC to attempt taking one shot at doing all the necessary revisions rather than issue a sequence of partial fixes. But I really have no idea how the government is approaching this . . . other than I am confident there will be a concerted effort to work with what is already in use, until fixes are in place, which will require IRCC to exercise a good deal of flexibility and discretion. Hopefully I will not be negatively surprised in how it actually goes in this regard.

There are many items which have real problems. Item 16 I have mentioned in other topics, but the problems with it have been barely talked about. The way the "eligibility period" works is bound to be confusing in a variety of situations. Consternation and confusion about having to account for address history, work history, and so on, for time periods prior to an applicant's first arrival in Canada, abounds. Some of the columns in Q 11 are, at best, vague. There is no consensus about how to respond to Item 6. And more.

Unfortunately, the problems with the form is almost certain to cause delays in processing. Ouch.

And I should acknowledge, despite what many see as obvious problems with the form, there is no guarantee that IRCC will actually fix these things in the near future. I expect they will. But that is far from a sure thing.

I do not mean to paint a dark sky, but there were serious problems raised about the residency requirement back in the 1980s, leading to numerous conflicting decisions in the Federal Court, leading to conflicting and contrary results, lack of predictability, and outright injustices. Over the next several DECADES various fixes were proposed but none got done. Even when Federal Court justices began overtly demanding that Parliament do something to fix the problem, years and years went by. Bill C-24 finally resolved the biggest problems, but that took over three decades to happen. Bureaucracies can be incredibly slow to adapt.
Many thanks to you for all of your detailed replies and excellently-updating comments/advice on here, ever-dependable dpenabill! Never doubt that you're very much appreciated. Cheers.
 

coolboys

Full Member
Apr 5, 2014
32
2
hi everyone,

today I call cic office to ask for police clearance certificate, the guy told me that still they are waiting for this answer from Ottawa. And when they get they will call me or email me.
 
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itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
hi everyone,

today I call cic office to ask for police clearance certificate, the guy told me that still they are waiting for this answer from Ottawa. And when they get they will call me or email me.
so within a week there have been 3 different answers from the CIC agents for people landed as PR between 3 and 4 years ago
- No you don't need it
- Yes you need it
- We don't know if you need it or not

So much for 'trained and knowledgeable' LOL
 
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scorpio_g

Newbie
Sep 12, 2017
7
2
so within a week there have been 3 different answers from the CIC agents for people landed as PR between 3 and 4 years ago
- No you don't need it
- Yes you need it
- We don't know if you need it or not

So much for 'trained and knowledgeable' LOL
I say we have to go by what is written not said until further notice
 
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ChippyBoy

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2016
375
168
so within a week there have been 3 different answers from the CIC agents for people landed as PR between 3 and 4 years ago
- No you don't need it
- Yes you need it
- We don't know if you need it or not

So much for 'trained and knowledgeable' LOL
Haha. I think the wisest choice is for us to assume that one's required as CIC/IRCC have explicitly stated in writing, and to proceed to obtain a (=/> 183 days per country) pcc prior to applying for Canadian citizenship; otherwise one risks one's application being put in the Delayed Pile. I'm just starting Week Fourteen waiting for my FBI thing to come back...
 
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manoj2010

Star Member
Mar 30, 2010
65
2
Thanks for your reply. I have not made my mind yet.
Would one rejection for any reason can have adverse effect on the process ? A lso I think if I want to reapply I will have to pay fees again. ?


Police certificate is time consuming, for me it would take 3-4 months. CIC page reads "You must provide a police certificate for each country where you spent 183 days or more. If you cannot get a police certificate, tell us why." Can we submit application saying applied for police certificate and submit it later ? legal adviser please advise.
You can give an explanation rather than include the police certificate. This may allow the application to successfully pass completeness screening and proceed to in-process. If indeed the procedure for obtaining the police certificate has in fact been commenced, and you can reasonably expect to receive it within the next three months, this could be a reasonable gamble. Worst case scenario, they return the application as incomplete and you get the certificate and return the application within 90 days.

If someone in this situation pursues this gamble, they should offer the forum a report about how it goes.
 

shmak2016

Hero Member
Sep 2, 2016
290
52
One Quick check about police clearance certificate.

183 or more days spend in last 4 years immediately before the date of application.

I signed my application on 05 Sept 2017 .

So if I count 4 years back from 2017/sept /05 to 2013/sept /05 . I came back to Canada in aug 11 ,2013 since than I never been out of Canada for more than 183 days. Do they still ask for pcc ?


I got my AOR already. I am not sure on this requirement ...can anyone help me on understanding it ?

Thanks
 
Last edited:

NN74

Hero Member
Jun 8, 2013
200
17
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Police certificate is time consuming, for me it would take 3-4 months. CIC page reads "You must provide a police certificate for each country where you spent 183 days or more. If you cannot get a police certificate, tell us why." Can we submit application saying applied for police certificate and submit it later ? legal adviser please advise.
I'm afraid what are you talking about. In Dubai it hardly takes 15 minutes to share details with CID staff and max 48 hours to get the Police certificate. I got it for myself and my husband within 48 hrs.
 

manoj2010

Star Member
Mar 30, 2010
65
2
I'm afraid what are you talking about. In Dubai it hardly takes 15 minutes to share details with CID staff and max 48 hours to get the Police certificate. I got it for myself and my husband within 48 hrs.
In US, it takes 3-4 months
 

shmak2016

Hero Member
Sep 2, 2016
290
52
Anyone plz help ??

One Quick check about police clearance certificate.

183 or more days spend in last 4 years immediately before the date of application.

I signed my application on 05 Sept 2017 .

So if I count 4 years back from 2017/sept /05 to 2013/sept /05 . I came back to Canada in aug 11 ,2013 since than I never been out of Canada for more than 183 days. Do they still ask for pcc ?


I got my AOR already. I am not sure on this requirement ...can anyone help me on understanding it ?

Thanks