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Police Certificate

spyfy

Champion Member
May 8, 2015
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Job Offer........
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26-08-2015
And last but least in one of your first posts you are making the statement that people who landed in Canada less than 4 years ago are possible criminals and this statement can offend other people. I am sure that was not your intention but I would be more careful on how are you make your assumptions about people you don't know and you don't have any proof.
Wow.
Just.
Wow.

Do you even notice how many people on this forum I'm helping/trying to help and how long I've been doing that? I get it, we have different opinions, so let's agree to disagree. But this last paragraph was really unnecessary.

Over and out. I'm done arguing with you, at least we agree on that.
 

ChippyBoy

Hero Member
Dec 5, 2016
375
168
I understand and appreciate your concern but I applied after speaking with a CIC/IRCC representative. I encourage everybody to call IRCC talk to an agent, make sure you write down his name date and time you called. If you still have doubts include a small letter in your application stating that on this date and time you spoke to this agent and you were advised to (insert your issue here) or file application in this way. All calls are recorded plus you have proof. This is a governmental institution and I strongly believe that the people assigned to give advise on immigration or citizenship are trained and highly qualified to do it. I will keep my statement until I will proven wrong.
I've called CIC/IRCC myself several times over the years, and the advisors try their very best to be helpful, but they're not the ones who actually process the various applications and oftentimes have to put one on hold while they try to find out about any particular aspect on-the-hoof. I can appreciate that your main motivation in all of this is to secure your place in the queue of applications, but the trick here is that straight-shot applications sail right through, while delayed applications go into another pile...
 
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Patrik BC

Member
Oct 13, 2017
11
2
Many questions and requests do not make sense. However, I would say to follow the rules blindly without trying to find excuses not to submit something. If you cannot submit for any reason then write a cover letter but if you are not submitting due to time or money then I disagree with you.

I have been through this myself, I got the PCC and submitted with the application. Spyfy wants to help

After all, it's your application and you can take the risk which might sometimes work or not.
I did not want to submit a PCC because I talked to an IRCC agent and I was told not to. If I wanted to save time and money I could've waited 2 more months and I could've apply without being confused about the 4 years rule. It is funny how many people are stating that you need to follow the rules but when you provide an explanation given by governmental employee they start bashing it. Anyways I will say it again : I DID NOT try to influence people to do anything I just gave them an example and described my experience with the citizenship application.
 

J24

Star Member
Oct 12, 2017
91
6
Hey all,

Interesting discourse but we should all be weary about spreading false information. Like someone said earlier a lot of people are reading those forums and taking advice from here. At the end of the day the rules for police certificate are clear, yes there may be different circumstances. Personally, my situation is complex which I have mentioned in another forum. Nevertheless, who knows what the agents will do until someone who applies and get a response from CIC post it. Otherwise, the rules on the website are GOLD, expecting any other outcome is at your own risk.
 
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itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
Wow.
Just.
Wow.

Do you even notice how many people on this forum I'm helping/trying to help and how long I've been doing that? I get it, we have different opinions, so let's agree to disagree. But this last paragraph was really unnecessary.

Over and out. I'm done arguing with you, at least we agree on that.
Lol, basically if you tell the kids not to talk to strangers, you will offend the entire population of the world, since that means you assume all strangers are going to harm the kids ....
 

scorpio_g

Newbie
Sep 12, 2017
7
2
Yeah you are right there is a lot of people who are in denial of the rules, don't want to go through the hassle and somehow try to rationalize why the rule that gives them that hassle doesn't make sense.
And they complain of applications delays
 

itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
I understand and appreciate your concern but I applied after speaking with a CIC/IRCC representative. I encourage everybody to call IRCC talk to an agent, make sure you write down his name date and time you called. If you still have doubts include a small letter in your application stating that on this date and time you spoke to this agent and you were advised to (insert your issue here) or file application in this way. All calls are recorded plus you have proof. This is a governmental institution and I strongly believe that the people assigned to give advise on immigration or citizenship are trained and highly qualified to do it. I will keep my statement until I will proven wrong.
Just today in another thread someone mentioned he called IRCC and got different answers from two agents , didn’t know which one to believe and was asking for advice here again ... so if you think you can take the agents’ word for it go ahead and good luck !

As to calls being recorded - I am used to hearing calls “may be recorded for training purposes “, even if you wrote down the name/ID of that agent, there is still a good chance that conversation was not actually recorded, or had been erased when you need it
 
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Patrik BC

Member
Oct 13, 2017
11
2
Wow.
Just.
Wow.

Do you even notice how many people on this forum I'm helping/trying to help and how long I've been doing that? I get it, we have different opinions, so let's agree to disagree. But this last paragraph was really unnecessary.

Over and out. I'm done arguing with you, at least we agree on that.
Again you are assuming that I am arguing with you which I am not. I simply signed up on this forum looking for some answers in regards to the citizenship application. Noticing that there are different opinions on different issues I decided to go straight to the source and asked a governmental representative. After that I just shared my experience here for everybody to see.
On the other hand you stated that you are trying to stop people to follow my strategy based on nothing but your pure interpretation of the new law. You might be right you might be wrong but I did not argue with your statement. I only defended myself by presenting the fact that I made a statement based on the professional advised I was given and you assumed that it was wrong which is not fine with me because you're implying that I am spreading false information.
Anyways just like you I was trying to help out sharing my experience but seems to me it attracted more negativity than I intended to.
I would like with this occasion an admin to delete my account if possible please and thank you.
 
Last edited:

scorpio_g

Newbie
Sep 12, 2017
7
2
Again you are assuming that I am arguing with you which I am not. I simply signed up on this forum looking for some answers in regards to the citizenship application. Noticing that there are different opinions on different issues I decided to go straight to the source and asked a governmental representative. After that I just shared my experience here for everybody to see.
On the other hand you stated that you are trying to stop people to follow my strategy based on nothing but your pure interpretation of the new law. You might be right you might be wrong but I did not argue with your statement. I only defended myself by presenting the fact that I made a statement based on the professional advised I was given and you assumed that it was wrong which is not fine with me because you're implying that I am spreading false information.
Anyways just like you I was trying to help out sharing my experience but seems to me it attracted more negativity than I intended to.
I would like with this occasion an admin to delete my account if possible please and thank you.
If the security rule requires you to be cleared for the last 4 years before you apply then your citizenship application file is incomplete. Based on my own experience, you have to submit a police certificate regardless of whether you sent it with your PR application or not even explaining why it is not possible for you to get one might not move you forward in the process. Anyway, you will know soon! Good luck!
 
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itsmyid

Champion Member
Jul 26, 2012
2,250
649
If the security rule requires you to be cleared for the last 4 years before you apply then your citizenship application file is incomplete. Based on my own experience, you have to submit a police certificate regardless of whether you sent it with your PR application or not even explaining why it is not possible for you to get one might not move you forward in the process. Anyway, you will know soon! Good luck!
Exactly , there is no point arguing about this for any longer than it already has been , in a month or two we will find out whether it is returned or it gets an AOR, then we would know who is right
 

scorpio_g

Newbie
Sep 12, 2017
7
2
Exactly , there is no point arguing about this for any longer than it already has been , in a month or two we will find out whether it is returned or it gets an AOR, then we would know who is right
I would be surprised if it got an AOR
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
An attempt to clarify and put the matter into perspective:

In general it is foolish, if not stupid, to give a response contrary to fact. Even if IRCC exempts or excludes some applicants from the requirement to submit a police certificate, despite 183 or more days spent in another country within the preceding four years, as argued by @Patrik BC, it is a risk to give a response that is contrary to fact (see discussion about misrepresentation below), such as to check "no" to Item 10.b when in FACT the applicant actually was in another country for 183 or more days within the preceding four years.

The risks can be minimized by including an explanation.

For Item 10.b in particular, most of us probably believe the best approach is to check "yes" (if in fact this is the accurate response) and give the explanation (per those proposed by @Patrik BC and a few others) in the box provided on the form. Alternatively, the applicant could check "no" and on a supplemental page give an explanation (again per those proposed by @Patrik BC and a few others).

At the least, this should totally eliminate any risk of being accused of misrepresentation there is in checking "no" (when that is contrary to fact), without qualifying or explaining why "no" is checked, despite having been in another country for 183 or more days within the preceding four years.

Note, it is NOT likely that a call centre representative advised anyone to answer "no" for Item 10.b when in FACT the applicant was in another country 183 or more days within the preceding four years. The odds are overwhelming that either the call centre representative misunderstood the question asked, or the person talking to the representative misunderstood the answer given, or a combination of these, although it is also possible the call centre representative simply gave an erroneous answer.

As others have referenced above, prior to last Wednesday a participant here was insistent a call centre representative clearly and assuredly stated that the new form would revise the criteria for submitting a police certificate, so that the relevant period would be the preceding three years rather than four. It was not necessary to discern who was mistaken or how the error was made. And indeed it was possible that IRCC would make such a change. However, as many of us emphatically, and for good reason observed, it was highly unlikely that was correct. And, indeed, that report based on what a call centre representative "clearly" said, was erroneous. Perhaps @Patrik BC spoke with that same call centre representative. No need to figure that out. It is obvious that an applicant should specifically answer Item 10.b consistent with the actual facts, and check "yes" if the total number of days spent in a country during the preceding four years totaled 183 or more. Whether such an applicant may be waived from the requirement to submit a police certificate is a separate question.


Toward gaining some perspective on such controversies:

Item 10.b poses a straight-forward yes or no question: "In the past four (4) years, were you in another country (other than Canada) for a total of 183 days or more?" [No] [Yes]

Item 9.c similarly poses a straight-forward yes or no question: "In your eligibility period did you live outside Canada:" [No] [Yes]

Item 9.c Many second-guess that IRCC intended to ask a more narrow question in item 9.c and assume this item is not merely poorly composed but is in error, that only those who may be eligible for Crown Service credit need to answer yes and submit the CIT 0177 form. It appears many are answering "no" despite having lived in another country.

Item 10.b While the number is much smaller (for obvious, good reasons it should be noted), there are a few (such as @Patrik BC) who have proposed that item 10.b. is similarly over-broad, that the relevant time period (4 years) is NOT intended to include time abroad prior to coming to Canada even if it is within the four year time period. (Particular basis for excluding time from the calculation varies some among those advancing this proposition.)

Personally, to my view, the respective context for these items amply illuminates why the observation about Item 9.c is probably correct while in contrast the arguments in support of the proposition about Item 10.b are NOT. Many have weighed in above regarding the matter of Item 10.b as to why the calculation should be made based on the four year time period, even if it includes days prior to ever coming to Canada, and I mostly concur in those observations; indeed, I have proffered such analysis myself.

I understand, however, that we cannot really know for sure what IRCC intent or policy is in regards to either of these items. While the varying opinions may be more or less persuasive, they are nonetheless not authoritative opinions.

Nonetheless, it is generally foolish, or outright stupid, to give a response which is overtly contrary to the facts. Sure, there are exceptions. And Item 9.c is probably among the exceptions. Item 10.b not so much so. At the least, it is best to include an explanation for any response contrary to actual fact.

See next post for discussion of consequences.














 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
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The GOOD NEWS; for these particular items (Item 9.c and Item 10.b), a "no" response contrary to fact will not likely be deemed misrepresentation (with caveats of course):

Potential misrepresentation: The most serious consequence for getting something like this wrong is having the response determined to be a material misrepresentation.

On its face, if an applicant who was living abroad at any time during the preceding five years (the "eligibility period") answers "no" to a question (Item 9.c) asking whether he or she lived outside Canada during the eligibility period, that answer is contrary to the facts. Deliberately responding contrary to fact is, of course, misrepresentation.

Likewise, on its face, if an applicant who spent a total of 183 days in a country other than Canada, during the preceding four years, answers "no" to a question (Item 10.b.) asking whether he or she was in another country for a total of 183 days during the preceding four years, that answer is contrary to the facts. Again, deliberately responding contrary to fact is, of course, misrepresentation.

The odds of either response being deemed a material misrepresentation (which would be grounds for denying the application and barring the applicant from being eligible for the next five years, and technically could be grounds for criminal prosecution) are LOW, so long as (of course) the applicant has otherwise completed the form and accurately declared relevant information as to address history and the presence calculation, and in respect to Item 10.b. the "no" response does not appear to be an overt attempt to avoid submitting a police certificate from a country in which the applicant has some criminal history. (The applicant has otherwise submitted all the relevant and accurate information, notwithstanding the erroneous "no" response, so there is no reason to suspect let alone believe there is an effort to deceive or conceal.)

That said, there is a huge difference between these two items, that is between Item 10.b and Item 9.c, having to do with what a "yes" or "no" entails, in how the response affects the application:
-- A false "no" response to Item 9.c does not benefit the applicant in any way. It does not deter IRCC from making further inquiries into the applicant's eligibility for citizenship.
-- In contrast, a false "no" response to Item 10.b purports to exclude the applicant from having to submit a police certificate and could deter IRCC from further inquiries into questions about the applicant's history in another country.

In other words, a false "no" response to Item 10.b may be perceived to be an attempt to dodge IRCC's requirements and assessment of the applicant, and if IRCC interpreted the response to be such an effort, obviously that could trigger a determination of misrepresentation.

It warrants noting that there are various degrees of action taken regarding misstatements of fact and perceived misrepresentation.

Not all misstatements of fact are misrepresentation. Innocent and incidental misstatements of fact can range from misunderstanding the question or instructions (checking "no" to Item 9.c despite having lived abroad for example), to minor, incidental mistakes, which will generally not cause any problems.

In some instances a misstatement of fact may be significant enough it has an impact on IRCC's perceptions about the applicant's credibility, in effect compromising the applicant's reliability as a reporter of facts, in which case it is not a misrepresentation unless it was intended to deceive or conceal, but it can negatively impact IRCC decision-making, such as in making it more difficult for the applicant to prove this or that qualification. Big but innocently made mistakes in accounting for time abroad fall into this category.

If IRCC perceives reason to believe the applicant deliberately made a misstatement of fact (or deliberately omitted material information), it is a much more serious situation. Depending on the facts and circumstances, including the extent to which IRCC perceives there was an overt effort to deceive or conceal material information from IRCC, the consequences can range from IRCC treating the applicant's input more of less skeptically (from somewhat skeptically, to perhaps so skeptically that none of the applicant's input is believed except to the extent it is directly corroborated by objective evidence or otherwise established through other sources) to a formal determination of misrepresentation, the latter constituting a stand alone ground for denying the application and resulting in a five year prohibition.

A contrary to fact response of "no," to Item 10.b or Item 9.c, should easily fall into the category of misunderstanding the question or instructions, or an otherwise innocent mistake, which will generally not cause any problems. Again, this is so long as the applicant has otherwise completed the form and accurately declared relevant information as to address history and the presence calculation, and in respect to Item 10.b. the "no" response does not appear to be an overt attempt to avoid submitting a police certificate from a country in which the applicant has some criminal history.


Other potential consequences:

Potential return of application: The applicant who accurately checks "yes" to either of these items and does NOT submit the respectively requested certificate or form, or alternatively provide an explanation as to why the respectively requested certificate or form is not submitted, RISKS the return of the application as incomplete. Other than the inherent delay due to this and some incidental costs related to shipping the application again, this is NO BIG DEAL.



The best way to avoid this RISK, is to check "yes" and include an explanation. This will almost certainly work for Item 9.c but may or may not work for Item 10.b. For Item 10.b, there is also a RISK that even if the explanation allows the application to pass completeness screening, IRCC may later specifically request a police certificate.


BOTTOM-LINE:

If I understand what is proposed by @Patrik BC and a few others, that it is OK for some applicants to check "no" in response to Item 10.b despite having in fact been in another country 183 or more days during the preceding four years (that for this or that reason, some of that time does not apply), that I am very certain is at least a BAD idea. How bad will vary, as discussed above.
 

Whocares

Hero Member
Sep 20, 2010
580
109
The GOOD NEWS; for these particular items (Item 9.c and Item 10.b), a "no" response contrary to fact will not likely be deemed misrepresentation (with caveats of course):

Potential misrepresentation: The most serious consequence for getting something like this wrong is having the response determined to be a material misrepresentation.

On its face, if an applicant who was living abroad at any time during the preceding five years (the "eligibility period") answers "no" to a question (Item 9.c) asking whether he or she lived outside Canada during the eligibility period, that answer is contrary to the facts. Deliberately responding contrary to fact is, of course, misrepresentation.

Likewise, on its face, if an applicant who spent a total of 183 days in a country other than Canada, during the preceding four years, answers "no" to a question (Item 10.b.) asking whether he or she was in another country for a total of 183 days during the preceding four years, that answer is contrary to the facts. Again, deliberately responding contrary to fact is, of course, misrepresentation.

The odds of either response being deemed a material misrepresentation (which would be grounds for denying the application and barring the applicant from being eligible for the next five years, and technically could be grounds for criminal prosecution) are LOW, so long as (of course) the applicant has otherwise completed the form and accurately declared relevant information as to address history and the presence calculation, and in respect to Item 10.b. the "no" response does not appear to be an overt attempt to avoid submitting a police certificate from a country in which the applicant has some criminal history. (The applicant has otherwise submitted all the relevant and accurate information, notwithstanding the erroneous "no" response, so there is no reason to suspect let alone believe there is an effort to deceive or conceal.)

That said, there is a huge difference between these two items, that is between Item 10.b and Item 9.c, having to do with what a "yes" or "no" entails, in how the response affects the application:
-- A false "no" response to Item 9.c does not benefit the applicant in any way. It does not deter IRCC from making further inquiries into the applicant's eligibility for citizenship.
-- In contrast, a false "no" response to Item 10.b purports to exclude the applicant from having to submit a police certificate and could deter IRCC from further inquiries into questions about the applicant's history in another country.

In other words, a false "no" response to Item 10.b may be perceived to be an attempt to dodge IRCC's requirements and assessment of the applicant, and if IRCC interpreted the response to be such an effort, obviously that could trigger a determination of misrepresentation.

It warrants noting that there are various degrees of action taken regarding misstatements of fact and perceived misrepresentation.

Not all misstatements of fact are misrepresentation. Innocent and incidental misstatements of fact can range from misunderstanding the question or instructions (checking "no" to Item 9.c despite having lived abroad for example), to minor, incidental mistakes, which will generally not cause any problems.

In some instances a misstatement of fact may be significant enough it has an impact on IRCC's perceptions about the applicant's credibility, in effect compromising the applicant's reliability as a reporter of facts, in which case it is not a misrepresentation unless it was intended to deceive or conceal, but it can negatively impact IRCC decision-making, such as in making it more difficult for the applicant to prove this or that qualification. Big but innocently made mistakes in accounting for time abroad fall into this category.

If IRCC perceives reason to believe the applicant deliberately made a misstatement of fact (or deliberately omitted material information), it is a much more serious situation. Depending on the facts and circumstances, including the extent to which IRCC perceives there was an overt effort to deceive or conceal material information from IRCC, the consequences can range from IRCC treating the applicant's input more of less skeptically (from somewhat skeptically, to perhaps so skeptically that none of the applicant's input is believed except to the extent it is directly corroborated by objective evidence or otherwise established through other sources) to a formal determination of misrepresentation, the latter constituting a stand alone ground for denying the application and resulting in a five year prohibition.

A contrary to fact response of "no," to Item 10.b or Item 9.c, should easily fall into the category of misunderstanding the question or instructions, or an otherwise innocent mistake, which will generally not cause any problems. Again, this is so long as the applicant has otherwise completed the form and accurately declared relevant information as to address history and the presence calculation, and in respect to Item 10.b. the "no" response does not appear to be an overt attempt to avoid submitting a police certificate from a country in which the applicant has some criminal history.


Other potential consequences:

Potential return of application: The applicant who accurately checks "yes" to either of these items and does NOT submit the respectively requested certificate or form, or alternatively provide an explanation as to why the respectively requested certificate or form is not submitted, RISKS the return of the application as incomplete. Other than the inherent delay due to this and some incidental costs related to shipping the application again, this is NO BIG DEAL.



The best way to avoid this RISK, is to check "yes" and include an explanation. This will almost certainly work for Item 9.c but may or may not work for Item 10.b. For Item 10.b, there is also a RISK that even if the explanation allows the application to pass completeness screening, IRCC may later specifically request a police certificate.


BOTTOM-LINE:

If I understand what is proposed by @Patrik BC and a few others, that it is OK for some applicants to check "no" in response to Item 10.b despite having in fact been in another country 183 or more days during the preceding four years (that for this or that reason, some of that time does not apply), that I am very certain is at least a BAD idea. How bad will vary, as discussed above.

I think 9c is totally different than 10b. In 9c, the applicant should check NO not YES while for 10b is the opposite. The application lists a condition (and even in the help) if you check yes then you should submit a form. So you better compare checking Yes for 9c and No for 10b, the applicant should provide an explanation if chose Yes for 9c and No for 10b.


The online help states that:
" C. There are very rare circumstances that will let you count time outside of Canada towards your physical presence calculation. If you resided outside of Canada because either:
  • you
  • your Canadian citizen or permanent resident spouse or common law partner
  • permanent resident parent
was employed outside Canada (not as a locally engaged person) in or with:
  • the Canadian Armed Forces
  • the federal public administration
  • the public service of a province or territory
Complete the Residence Outside of Canada form (CIT 0177) and submit any supporting documents requested in that form with your application."
 
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dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
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I think 9c is totally different than 10b. In 9c, the applicant should check NO not YES while for 10b is the opposite.
I addressed what I called a "huge difference" in items 9.c and 10.b but nonetheless recognize the quandary which arises in respect to 9.c, that for many applicants the options are:
-- answer "no" contrary to fact, or
-- answer "no" contrary to fact and add an explanation, or
-- answer "yes" and add an explanation for why CIT 0177 is not submitted, or
-- answer "yes" and include CIT 0177 with NA or explanation

To be clear, you appear to be recommending that for item 9.c even if the applicant lived outside Canada during the eligibility period, the applicant nonetheless simply check "no" (unless the applicant did so pursuant to Crown Service). That is, you appear to recommend responding contrary to fact without submitting an explanation.

My guess is that will be OK, but not because this is the right way to respond, but because I think IRCC will recognize the problem with this item and understand the situation based on other information in the application, and thus not conclude the "no" response is an inconsistency or misrepresentation, but will effectively ignore it.

In general, it is risky to respond contrary to fact.