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Police certificate requested

EstherBarros

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Aug 18, 2014
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BC- Canada
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Thanks for all the replies, I think I have no options now but to proceed with the PCC request to be completed, which as per the embassy website it may take up to 6 months. That being said, I don't understand if it was something needed to be done as I was close to the 183 days in that country, why the PCC request was delayed until after 10 months of sending my application, why it was not requested even during the interview which was almost 100 days ago, all what I was told after going through my file and my travel history, everything is good and to wait for the oath invitation. But again I have no options now except working on the PCC and wait......
Again, it really sucks you were asked for this, and that the document is hard to attain. That's delaying your application, and I cannot imagine the level of frustration this causes. Having said that, there's no way of knowing what triggered this, or why they said what they did during your interview. Could be the CO that interviewed you wasn't your actual CO, could be that that's what they thought at the time, but then later analyzed the application again and thought they would rather request the PCC... I think it's not good for you to dwell on this, for your sanity and peace of mind. Just accept they requested it, and get it done. Their request is not under your control, but your thoughts/actions are!


I hope this helps.

Cheers,
 

ZingyDNA

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Aug 12, 2013
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Thanks for all the replies, I think I have no options now but to proceed with the PCC request to be completed, which as per the embassy website it may take up to 6 months. That being said, I don't understand if it was something needed to be done as I was close to the 183 days in that country, why the PCC request was delayed until after 10 months of sending my application, why it was not requested even during the interview which was almost 100 days ago, all what I was told after going through my file and my travel history, everything is good and to wait for the oath invitation. But again I have no options now except working on the PCC and wait......
So the interviewer said everything is fine and just wait for oath? That's very odd... They must have decided to ask for the police report AFTER the interview, otherwise the interviewer would have told you about it.. I wonder what triggered this. Maybe a more senior officer took at look at your file after the interview? Did you order GCMS notes?
 

Mns77

Member
Sep 5, 2011
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I had to submit PCC from two countries as well.
Just apply for PCC and in the meantime, you can use the webform to tell them that you "have applied for a PCC and it is going to take some time due to processing times".
When your PCC arrives, scan it and send it to them using webform.
But don't send it by mail because 1) you can hand deliver the original to Citizenship Officer when you are invited for test/interview and 2) sending by mail has the risk of losing/misplacing the document unless you have the specific mail address of the case processing center.
So, this is what I did and it worked out completely fine.
Thanks for the reply, I will apply for PCC but it will for sure take long time to get it done, I have first to do finger prints here, notarize it, send it for authentication at the ministry of foreign affairs in Ottawa, then send this finger prints together with other documents and fees to the embassy. The embassy told me only after they receive all the completed documents they have to forward it to the local office in that country and wait for it to come back, so it takes up to 6 months after receiving the documents. I think my situation is different as I already done my interview ( almost 4 months ago ) and I don't think they will call me for another one, so I think I should send the original PCC when I get it. Meanwhile I will send them letter to let them know it takes up to 6 months to be done
 

Mns77

Member
Sep 5, 2011
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Again, it really sucks you were asked for this, and that the document is hard to attain. That's delaying your application, and I cannot imagine the level of frustration this causes. Having said that, there's no way of knowing what triggered this, or why they said what they did during your interview. Could be the CO that interviewed you wasn't your actual CO, could be that that's what they thought at the time, but then later analyzed the application again and thought they would rather request the PCC... I think it's not good for you to dwell on this, for your sanity and peace of mind. Just accept they requested it, and get it done. Their request is not under your control, but your thoughts/actions are!
Thanks for your comment, sure it was really frustrating to see this letter when you were told 4 months ago after the test to wait for the Oath invitation, especially I am getting close to 1 year since I sent my application and now I need to wait up to 6 months just to get this PCC done. But what to do.
 

Mns77

Member
Sep 5, 2011
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So the interviewer said everything is fine and just wait for oath? That's very odd... They must have decided to ask for the police report AFTER the interview, otherwise the interviewer would have told you about it.. I wonder what triggered this. Maybe a more senior officer took at look at your file after the interview? Did you order GCMS notes?
That is what he told me when I had my interview, and that is why I am not happy with what is happening although I know I was close to the 183 days but I never expected to be asked for that PCC long after the interview with my application approaching 1 year. Literary, I can't think of anything that may trigger that request at that later stage. Not sure if ordering GCMS notes will make any difference.
 

PakUofT2018

Newbie
Oct 3, 2018
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3
Thanks for the reply, I will apply for PCC but it will for sure take long time to get it done, I have first to do finger prints here, notarize it, send it for authentication at the ministry of foreign affairs in Ottawa, then send this finger prints together with other documents and fees to the embassy. The embassy told me only after they receive all the completed documents they have to forward it to the local office in that country and wait for it to come back, so it takes up to 6 months after receiving the documents. I think my situation is different as I already done my interview ( almost 4 months ago ) and I don't think they will call me for another one, so I think I should send the original PCC when I get it. Meanwhile I will send them letter to let them know it takes up to 6 months to be done
Keep extra copies before sending the original. First send through webform, and then through mail.
And when you send the original, make sure to include your Client ID number, application number etc. on a separate piece of paper. Also keep the tracking number so you can trace it.
It is unfortunate but sometimes it is just part of background check. Tell the embassy that you need it urgently and they should speed up the process. A PCC should not take 6 months. That's just too long.
 

ZingyDNA

Champion Member
Aug 12, 2013
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That is what he told me when I had my interview, and that is why I am not happy with what is happening although I know I was close to the 183 days but I never expected to be asked for that PCC long after the interview with my application approaching 1 year. Literary, I can't think of anything that may trigger that request at that later stage. Not sure if ordering GCMS notes will make any difference.
Did you travel to that country at any point AFTER submitting the application? If you didn't accumulate 183 days in the four years before applying, this seems like a mistake. GCMS can tell you (more or less) what's going on.
 

Mns77

Member
Sep 5, 2011
18
0
Did you travel to that country at any point AFTER submitting the application? If you didn't accumulate 183 days in the four years before applying, this seems like a mistake. GCMS can tell you (more or less) what's going on.
No, I didn't go there since then.
 

riasat.abir

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Aug 9, 2012
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No, I didn't go there since then.
How long did you actually stay in that country past 5 year say year by year and what are your eligibility dates?
 

Mns77

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Sep 5, 2011
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How long did you actually stay in that country past 5 year say year by year and what are your eligibility dates?
I didn't really count the days I stayed in that country past 5 years before submitting my application, but for sure will be more than 183 days in 5 years and less than 183 in 4 years before my application date.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Note: I do not recall the topic at the moment, but yesterday or the day before another forum participant has reported a somewhat similar course, the request for a police certificate coming months after providing other requested documents which itself followed the interview, meaning a long way into the process, and this individual reports having spent less than 120 days in that country during the four years prior to applying.

Assuming the veracity of that report, this is consistent with what I have long cautioned: IRCC can request a police clearance certificate regardless of how much time an applicant has spent in another country. And it appears that on at least some occasions, extended ties or lengthy stays (albeit less than six months in total) in another country are indeed triggering the request. For some.

That said, there may be other factors triggering these requests. We rely on forum participants to identify and share what they believe are the relevant factors. The efficacy of this, given the nature of the beast, tends to be less than reassuring. The majority of applicants tend to focus on factors which are consistent with their case and corroborate their account, while in contrast, more than occasionally, overlooking (sometimes overtly ignoring) factors or details which can have a significant impact on how a total stranger bureaucrat at IRCC might perceive things. It is very easy to miss what might actually be triggering such requests.

And that too said, there are not enough reports of this, as yet, to cause concern for most applicants who were well short of the 183 days threshold. For those who were close to the 183 day threshold, like the OP, signs suggest obtaining the police clearance just-in-case; that is, go ahead and apply and while the application is pending, in process, obtain the clearance just-in-case there is a later request. Thus, there would be only a minimal delay if there is a request (a police clearance should suffice if it was issued AFTER the individual's last time in that country).

BUT most applicants probably have little reason to worry about this. And for many if not most countries, the timeline to obtain the clearance tends to be less than the situation the OP has encountered.

EDIT to ADD quote from other forum participant reporting somewhat similar processing:

I have applied for citizenship and received an interview in July 2018. In the interview, I was frequently asked about my stays out of Canada, which weren’t exceeding 120 days scattered over the last 4 years. There, I was given CIT 0520 (06-2015) E named request for supplementary evidence and I was instructed to give new copies of my passport along with a document showing all records of dates of entry and exit. The documents were sent back to the IRCC Ottawa office on the 3rd day of the request. Three weeks later, I was sent yet another CIT0520 E now requesting a police certificate from my country in which again I did not spend more than a cumulative of 120 days over the last 4 years. So I was able to provide that certificate to them after 3 weeks
 
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Mns77

Member
Sep 5, 2011
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Note: I do not recall the topic at the moment, but yesterday or the day before another forum participant has reported a somewhat similar course, the request for a police certificate coming months after providing other requested documents which itself followed the interview, meaning a long way into the process, and this individual reports having spent less than 120 days in that country during the four years prior to applying.

Assuming the veracity of that report, this is consistent with what I have long cautioned: IRCC can request a police clearance certificate regardless of how much time an applicant has spent in another country. And it appears that on at least some occasions, extended ties or lengthy stays (albeit less than six months in total) in another country are indeed triggering the request. For some.

That said, there may be other factors triggering these requests. We rely on forum participants to identify and share what they believe are the relevant factors. The efficacy of this, given the nature of the beast, tends to be less than reassuring. The majority of applicants tend to focus on factors which are consistent with their case and corroborate their account, while in contrast, more than occasionally, overlooking (sometimes overtly ignoring) factors or details which can have a significant impact on how a total stranger bureaucrat at IRCC might perceive things. It is very easy to miss what might actually be triggering such requests.

And that too said, there are not enough reports of this, as yet, to cause concern for most applicants who were well short of the 183 days threshold. For those who were close to the 183 day threshold, like the OP, signs suggest obtaining the police clearance just-in-case; that is, go ahead and apply and while the application is pending, in process, obtain the clearance just-in-case there is a later request. Thus, there would be only a minimal delay if there is a request (a police clearance should suffice if it was issued AFTER the individual's last time in that country).

BUT most applicants probably have little reason to worry about this. And for many if not most countries, the timeline to obtain the clearance tends to be less than the situation the OP has encountered.
That's actually all valid, and for sure the IRCC can request any document that they think is relevant to the process even the stay was less than 6 months. My concern is, why that was delayed for more than 10 months after the application is submitted. Now what is the use of the interview if during the interview and after going through my file no concerns and no comments were asked. The only comment I got, every thing looks good, wait for the Oath. Actually I called IRCC couple of times after the interview as my status was still in process and the answer was, everything looks good and wait for the Oath. Honestly, I can't find any reason to trigger the request for PCC that late for me and my wife if it was not triggered since the application date on December /2017. I am also positive they are aware of the process of obtaining PCC from that country and the time it may take for both of us.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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That's actually all valid, and for sure the IRCC can request any document that they think is relevant to the process even the stay was less than 6 months. My concern is, why that was delayed for more than 10 months after the application is submitted. Now what is the use of the interview if during the interview and after going through my file no concerns and no comments were asked. The only comment I got, every thing looks good, wait for the Oath. Actually I called IRCC couple of times after the interview as my status was still in process and the answer was, everything looks good and wait for the Oath. Honestly, I can't find any reason to trigger the request for PCC that late for me and my wife if it was not triggered since the application date on December /2017. I am also positive they are aware of the process of obtaining PCC from that country and the time it may take for both of us.
As I have observed otherwise, and which I am sure applies to everyone here, I cannot explain WHY, that is why in your particular case, IRCC has done this at this stage of processing.

I have explained why they can (burden of proof, in this regard the burden to prove NO prohibition in the nature of a foreign conviction, is on you, the applicant) and in a general sense why there is an elevated risk this will happen for some applicants (the more time or ties an applicant has in a particular country, the greater the risk IRCC wants proof of NO criminal charges there).

It is NOT likely an ATIP request will reveal much, nothing of actual use in any event.

The expense of obtaining a consultation with a lawyer is disproportionate to the likelihood of obtaining much more information than what you already know, let alone information which can be used to actually make decisions. (Albeit more about possible actions to take in a separate post below.)

Your situation, relative to possible actions to take, is largely past tense, assuming you have already submitted a response and pursued the procedure for obtaining the clearance. Now you WAIT. Wait to see if IRCC proceeds to make a decision without waiting for a police certificate (there is a chance IRCC will), or alternatively WAIT to obtain and submit the clearance after you receive it, and then wait some more for IRCC to make a decision.

To be clear, anyone in your situation should submit a timely response to the request stating that a police clearance is not currently available, together with a copy of the respective country's consulate response (or at least a statement describing it, if it was oral; obviously a copy of a written response is better), and a truthful explanation that an application for the clearance has been properly made and the clearance will be sent to IRCC when it is obtained. Again, I assume you have done this.

So for you the way forward, now, is largely about waiting. Waiting and hoping IRCC decides to not delay any further and thus proceed in making a decision without the clearance, or waiting to get the clearance so you can then submit it.

There is an alternative. Again I will get to that below. (To my view the alternative lacks much if any promise, so I have not pursued that tangent so far in this discussion.)

In contrast, which in large part is why I have offered commentary, your situation (also illustrated in the other forum-participant's report of similarly getting a request to submit a police certificate many months into the process) offers the opportunity to emphasize what other applicants can do to minimize the potential disruption or delay if something similar happens to them. That is, as I noted above, and will repeat now for others:

For those who were close to the 183 day threshold, it would be prudent to obtain the police clearance JUST-IN-CASE; that is, go ahead and apply for citizenship and while the application is pending, in process, obtain the clearance just-in-case there is a later request. Thus, there would be only a minimal delay if there is a request. Again, a police clearance should suffice even if it is more than six months or even a year old, so long as it was issued AFTER the individual's last time in that country.

The latter is the main reason I have posted in this topic. I am no expert. I cannot help individual applicants much. I am not qualified to offer individual advice. BUT I have made an effort to stay apprised of a few issues which tend to pose problems, and especially those posing PITFALLS which can trip up or delay an otherwise qualified applicant's path to citizenship, so that I can bring to the attention of others what are, more or less, lessons to be learned, risks to be avoided or at least minimized, ways to navigate the process which will, I hope, help others get through the process more smoothly and with less anxiety.

Sometimes it feels like swimming not just against the tide but against a storm surge. Especially when it comes to issues about who needs a police clearance certificate. So many in this forum focus intently, if not entirely, on whether TECHNICALLY they have been in a country for 183 days as if this is a definitive cutoff, and I have no doubt, none at all, that focus is at best misplaced if not outright mistaken. There have been, for example, at least two topics with extended discussion about whether or not days partially in Canada (thus not a day "absent" from Canada) would be counted as a day in the other country. Does NOT matter. If this will make a difference between being over or under 183 days, the applicant can count it either way. If it makes the difference, the applicant can choose to not count these days and check "no" in response to the 183 days question, and NOT submit a police certificate. (In which event, however, the applicant would be prudent to nonetheless proceed to obtain a certificate and anticipate a significant risk of being asked for it later in the process.) Or, the applicant can count those days, check "yes," and submit the clearance with the application. The latter is the approach with the lower risk of a disruption or delay in the process.

But you are past that stage. You are in a WAIT longer phase.

Or . . . there is a more litigation-oriented approach. See next post (with the caveat that odds of success are low or very low).
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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. . . My concern is, why that was delayed for more than 10 months after the application is submitted. Now what is the use of the interview if during the interview and after going through my file no concerns and no comments were asked.
In an earlier post, only in a passing manner did I mention the questions of reasonableness and fair procedure. Depending on the facts, these are questions which can be asked in a particular case. Perhaps in your case.

The procedure for doing so is by way of a demand to act on the application followed by an application to the Federal Court for a writ of mandamus. There are persuasive reasons why I did not elaborate, why I did not pursue this tangent. Two reasons loom particularly large:

One is the rather low probability of success.​

The other is that it is complicated, it demands wandering far into the weeds, and tends to be far more a distraction than helpful.​



DEMAND and MANDAMUS:

IRCC has an obligation to process a citizenship application and to be REASONABLE in doing so, AND in particular to employ PROCEDURAL FAIRNESS.

The procedure for challenging IRCC actions which are NOT REASONABLE, which violate a Canadian's right to PROCEDURAL FAIRNESS, is to do so by way of a demand to act on the application followed, if IRCC does not appropriately act, by an application to the Federal Court for a writ of mandamus.

Since I do NOT know WHY IRCC has proceeded the way it has in your particular case, I cannot begin to assess whether or not its actions are reasonable or unreasonable, or otherwise a breach of your right to procedural fairness. Neither do you. Neither would a lawyer UNLESS and UNTIL actually making an application for a Writ of Mandamus and obtaining information from IRCC attendant what is comparable (in other proceedings) to discovery. (Given this, it would probably be very difficult to find a lawyer willing to pursue this, except a lawyer willing to do so just to take your money; most lawyers like to know, up front, there is at least a fair shot at winning.)

Technically an individual can pursue mandamus without a lawyer. Practically, even most lawyers are not particularly adept in pursuing mandamus, and for pro se litigants it is especially difficult with potentially being charged paying the government's costs and attorney fees, which can be shockingly huge when the plaintiff loses (I have said "when" deliberately, not "if," since in this scenario the probability of losing is very high, which in itself tends to dramatically increase the risk of being charged with the government's costs and fees).

But nonetheless, IRCC has an affirmative duty to be REASONABLE in the actions it takes on a citizenship application. IRCC has an affirmative duty to not engage in actions which violate an individual's right to PROCEDURAL FAIRNESS. And, Canada being a nation governed by the rule of law, there is a remedy when a government agency fails to do what it has a duty to do. In such a case a Federal Court can issue a Writ of Mandamus ordering the agency to do what the agency has a clear duty to do.

The agency (IRCC in this case, or technically the "Minister" in this case) is entitled to notice and an opportunity to perform its duty BEFORE any application for mandamus is made. Thus, the first step in this process is to make a PROPER DEMAND to the Minister that IRCC perform what it has a clear duty to perform. This is actually the trickiest part of the Mandamus procedure. I have been told by a former Judicial clerk (a lawyer of course) that MOST applications for Mandamus FAIL due to this, and I am talking about most applications by LAWYERS.

Articulating precisely what it is that IRCC (the Minister) has a clear duty to do in a particular case is NOT at all easy. The general duty, to be REASONABLE, to not breach a person's right to PROCEDURAL FAIRNESS, is merely a trite statement of principle. What specific action the agency has a clear duty to take is far more elusive.

Unfortunately, the amount of time it takes to process an application does not establish the unreasonableness of failing to make a decision UNLESS there is a time period prescribed by law. There is NONE governing the processing of a citizenship application. Even very long delays in processing do NOT constitute a breach of an individual applicant's right to procedural fairness.

The above barely scratches the surface. Mandamus is as much into the weeds as just about any judicial remedy can be.


A RELATIVELY PRACTICAL ASPECT OF THIS: A CAREFULLY COMPOSED DEMAND

The applicant can send a formal demand to IRCC. Or, a lawyer can do so on behalf of an applicant. This can be phrased in terms of a REQUEST which nonetheless constitutes a demand. Historically there have been more than a few reported instances in which this has, at least apparently, succeeded in motivating IRCC to proceed with an application sooner than it otherwise would have. There is little or no downside. Worst case scenario is IRCC essentially ignores the request/demand, not even acknowledging it (which, also historically, seems to be the most common response when this is made by the applicant rather than a lawyer on behalf of the applicant, at least by CIC before the change to IRCC).

The difficulty, again, is in precisely articulating the request or demand sufficiently to meet mandamus requirements.

I rarely wander into Mandamus territory because it really is an EXCEPTIONAL remedy available only in very UNUSUAL circumstances, and the probability of success tends to be remote. Mandamus discussions tend to be a distraction. BUT, again, Canada is indeed a nation governed by the rule of law, and there is a remedy when a government body fails to do what it has a duty to do, including processing an application in a manner which is REASONABLE and does NOT violate an individual's right to PROCEDURAL FAIRNESS.

And, overall, the option of waiting tends to be the more prudent approach . . . and often the outcome in a successful mandamus action is not really all that much sooner, if it is sooner, than it would have been just waiting. (Litigation tends to take time.)

Final caveat: what is "reasonable" typically involves a very, very broad range of possible actions or decisions. Many confuse what is the "reasonable" thing to do, from their perspective, as defining any other action or decision to be unreasonable. Not the way it works. Very different outcomes or actions can both be "reasonable."
 
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