Physical Presence caclulator & Multiple Trips

[mbv747]

Hi Guys,
i need your help please regarding the Physical Presence caclulator.
For Long absences (i've been continuously one year outside canada) and when visiting multipe countries in the same absence, should i mention on the reason field the entry and exist date for each country or just the country's name(+reason) ?
Thank you

 

[Mexontario]

Hi Guys,
i need your help please regarding the Physical Presence caclulator.
For Long absences (i've been continuously one year outside canada) and when visiting multipe countries in the same absence, should i mention on the reason field the entry and exist date for each country or just the country's name(+reason) ?
Thank you

You did not leave to all countries from Canada, is it? Only put the country that you left from Canada. No need to mention all the countries you left to thereafter, unless you stayed more than 183 days in any of those countries.

 

[dpenabill]

Hi Guys,
i need your help please regarding the Physical Presence caclulator.
For Long absences (i've been continuously one year outside canada) and when visiting multipe countries in the same absence, should i mention on the reason field the entry and exist date for each country or just the country's name(+reason) ?
Thank you

The instructions are actually quite clear. When in doubt, follow the instructions, and otherwise, yep, follow the instructions.

In the "reasons" box, for reporting travel abroad in the actual physical presence calculation, you briefly explain the reason for going and staying abroad, which can be quite general but should, of course, be honest. It is not a trick question. It does not ask or call for a detailed explanation or a detailed itinerary.

Among possible "reasons" for extended periods abroad: "went to live in Italy with family," "went to work in Dubai," "visiting friends and family," "was traveling for recreational reasons," . . . WHATEVER generally explains YOUR reasons for going and staying abroad. For some it could be health reasons and a preference for the health care in another country. WHATEVER generally explains YOUR reasons.

The instructions also clearly state to LIST, in the "reasons" box, all other countries visited during that trip abroad. No need to elaborate. Thus, the applicant can simply say "also visited France, Chile, and Japan."

Thus, to be clear I disagree with this:

Only put the country that you left from Canada. No need to mention all the countries you left to thereafter, unless you stayed more than 183 days in any of those countries.

Again, the instructions (for the actual physical presence calculation) clearly state the applicant should list other countries visited in the "reasons" box.

The instructions do not indicate that the applicant needs to provide any additional information for those countries.

This is separate and apart from item 10.b) in the application itself, which requires the applicant to specifically declare ANY and ALL countries in which the applicant was present for 183 days or more in a row. Item 10.b) has its own chart in which to list such countries.

 

[kalebhushan]

Again, the instructions (for the actual physical presence calculation) clearly state the applicant should list other countries visited in the "reasons" box.

The instructions do not indicate that the applicant needs to provide any additional information for those countries.

This is separate and apart from item 10.b) in the application itself, which requires the applicant to specifically declare ANY and ALL countries in which the applicant was present for 183 days or more in a row. Item 10.b) has its own chart in which to list such countries.

Not sure if the above is valid in 2022 or for online applications, but in case of online application, the explanation box where you could LIST all countries visited during the same trip appears only when you select Reason for visit as OTHER. So even if your absence was for tourism, you couldn't select TOURISM since that will not give you the text box to explain that you also went to other countries. What should be selected as a reason in this case?

 

[dpenabill]

Not sure if the above is valid in 2022 or for online applications, but in case of online application, the explanation box where you could LIST all countries visited during the same trip appears only when you select Reason for visit as OTHER. So even if your absence was for tourism, you couldn't select TOURISM since that will not give you the text box to explain that you also went to other countries. What should be selected as a reason in this case?

I generally do not offer advice. Note, for example, the observation of mine you quoted was neither advice nor opinion, but rather reporting information from the application form and instructions. By the way, it is still valid for paper applications accompanied by the output of the online physical presence calculator.

How an applicant should respond to a particular question, like what to enter as the "reason" for a trip, my responses to such a question are limited to noting what the instructions say and to say an applicant should give an honest answer responsive to the question as best they understand the question, the instructions, and the facts.

I will rarely, almost never, suggest giving an answer based on anything other than what, in the applicant's own personal judgment, is a truthful answer to the question asked. (Many others will sometimes refer to what, according to them, IRCC really wants to know -- as far as I have seen, IRCC wants an honest answer to the question asked, as asked, and they decide how to use that information.)

I am not keeping up with the details involved in making an online application. The basics still apply: if in doubt, follow the instructions; otherwise, yep, follow the instructions.

If the instructions for making an online application do not say to report countries visited in addition to the "destination" for a particular trip, best I can suggest is to follow the instructions.

But that comes with a caveat. An applicant who has taken trips outside Canada which include visiting multiple countries during single trips abroad can choose to make a paper application, rather than an online application, and that will facilitate reporting those additional countries. Should they? For some it would likely be prudent to do that.

Longer Observations:

Applicants should ALWAYS use current forms and follow the most recent version of instructions. Obviously. And to be clear, the forms do change. There have been, for example, two new versions of the pdf form version of CIT 0002 implemented AFTER the post of mine you quote, including a new version implemented last year. Meanwhile, as I noted, I do not follow detailed changes in the online application (there was no online version in use at the time of the post you quote), but obviously the online version of the application is as likely to change as the pdf form.

Nonetheless, in regards to the current (January 6, 2023) version of the online physical presence calculator, it still utilizes the "reasons" box I referenced in that post you quote (from more than two years ago), in which the applicant describes the reason for the trip outside Canada, and the online calculator still includes the instruction "If you visited more than one country during the same absence, list the first country in 'Destination' and list the other countries in the 'Reason' field."

So, to be clear, despite changes in the application form, what I posted above is still valid.

Among other changes, as noted, is that in 2021 IRCC implemented an online application subject to certain limitations, meaning use of the online version is only available to some applicants meeting certain criteria. This is still true today, meaning that only some prospective applicants for citizenship can use the online version.

I am not trying to keep up with detailed changes in the online versions of the application, and I do not have access to practice versions (not without fudging information input into the process). However, anyone can still access and do practice versions of the online physical presence calculator. While the output from the online physical presence calculation is not part of an online citizenship application, IRCC instructions nonetheless state that applicants can use that calculator to verify they meet the physical presence requirements.

There is another approach, which is to use CIT 0407, a pdf form for reporting travel history. This form does not include the instruction to list additional countries visited during the same absence, and the "Reason for absence" box is limited to just 50 characters, in contrast to the online physical presence calculator which allows up to 400 characters.

KEY CONSIDERATION -- Applicants Should Choose Which Application Approach Fits Best:

Without trying to identify all the variations in making a citizenship application, basically an adult applying for citizenship can approach it three ways:

-- paper application with output from online physical presence calculation​

-- paper application using CIT 0407 to report travel history and physical presence calculation​

-- online application​

Which approach to use is largely a personal decision, and for some the particular circumstances in their individual case might indicate one approach is preferable to another. Moreover, again, not all applicants can make an online application; only some, those meeting the qualifying criteria. Overall, applicants need to choose for themselves which application approach is best for them.

The standard paper application is available to all adult applicants. For many, perhaps most, it is still probably the better way to apply. For some, perhaps many, it is the ONLY way to make a citizenship application.

For those making a paper application, it is typically better to use the online physical presence calculator (for multiple reasons, accuracy of the calculation itself looming large -- noting, however, that is in regards to counting days and is nonetheless dependent on the applicant completely and accurately entering all travel history dates). There are, however, isolated circumstances which can trigger a glitch in the online physical presence calculator, and in those situations it might be prudent for an applicant to use CIT 0407 to submit their physical presence calculation.

Leading, Finally, To Reporting Additional Countries Visited During An Absence From Canada:

The observation made back in 2020 is still valid for any applicant who makes a paper application and uses the online physical presence calculator; that is, the applicant should specify one country in the Destination field, and list all other countries visited in the "Reason" box.

Assuming it is correct that the online application does not facilitate including a list of additional countries visited during one absence, the question an applicant might want to consider is whether their particular circumstances, including travel outside Canada that involved visiting multiple countries during a single trip, is a reason to NOT use the online application but rather make a paper application, to use the paper application in order to submit the output from the online physical presence calculator in which all this information is declared/reported.

I cannot answer that question for any particular applicant. My sense is that identifying additional countries is probably not much if at all important for many, but might be for others. Not all citizenship applications are created equal. Some are more complicated than others. And some a lot more complicated than others. There is a tendency in this forum to approach questions as if there is one right answer, when very often that is not the case.

 

[kalebhushan]

I generally do not offer advice. Note, for example, the observation of mine you quoted was neither advice nor opinion, but rather reporting information from the application form and instructions. By the way, it is still valid for paper applications accompanied by the output of the online physical presence calculator.

How an applicant should respond to a particular question, like what to enter as the "reason" for a trip, my responses to such a question are limited to noting what the instructions say and to say an applicant should give an honest answer responsive to the question as best they understand the question, the instructions, and the facts.

I will rarely, almost never, suggest giving an answer based on anything other than what, in the applicant's own personal judgment, is a truthful answer to the question asked. (Many others will sometimes refer to what, according to them, IRCC really wants to know -- as far as I have seen, IRCC wants an honest answer to the question asked, as asked, and they decide how to use that information.)

I am not keeping up with the details involved in making an online application. The basics still apply: if in doubt, follow the instructions; otherwise, yep, follow the instructions.

If the instructions for making an online application do not say to report countries visited in addition to the "destination" for a particular trip, best I can suggest is to follow the instructions.

But that comes with a caveat. An applicant who has taken trips outside Canada which include visiting multiple countries during single trips abroad can choose to make a paper application, rather than an online application, and that will facilitate reporting those additional countries. Should they? For some it would likely be prudent to do that.

Longer Observations:

Applicants should ALWAYS use current forms and follow the most recent version of instructions. Obviously. And to be clear, the forms do change. There have been, for example, two new versions of the pdf form version of CIT 0002 implemented AFTER the post of mine you quote, including a new version implemented last year. Meanwhile, as I noted, I do not follow detailed changes in the online application (there was no online version in use at the time of the post you quote), but obviously the online version of the application is as likely to change as the pdf form.

Nonetheless, in regards to the current (January 6, 2023) version of the online physical presence calculator, it still utilizes the "reasons" box I referenced in that post you quote (from more than two years ago), in which the applicant describes the reason for the trip outside Canada, and the online calculator still includes the instruction "If you visited more than one country during the same absence, list the first country in 'Destination' and list the other countries in the 'Reason' field."

So, to be clear, despite changes in the application form, what I posted above is still valid.

Among other changes, as noted, is that in 2021 IRCC implemented an online application subject to certain limitations, meaning use of the online version is only available to some applicants meeting certain criteria. This is still true today, meaning that only some prospective applicants for citizenship can use the online version.

I am not trying to keep up with detailed changes in the online versions of the application, and I do not have access to practice versions (not without fudging information input into the process). However, anyone can still access and do practice versions of the online physical presence calculator. While the output from the online physical presence calculation is not part of an online citizenship application, IRCC instructions nonetheless state that applicants can use that calculator to verify they meet the physical presence requirements.

There is another approach, which is to use CIT 0407, a pdf form for reporting travel history. This form does not include the instruction to list additional countries visited during the same absence, and the "Reason for absence" box is limited to just 50 characters, in contrast to the online physical presence calculator which allows up to 400 characters.

KEY CONSIDERATION -- Applicants Should Choose Which Application Approach Fits Best:

Without trying to identify all the variations in making a citizenship application, basically an adult applying for citizenship can approach it three ways:

-- paper application with output from online physical presence calculation​

-- paper application using CIT 0407 to report travel history and physical presence calculation​

-- online application​

Which approach to use is largely a personal decision, and for some the particular circumstances in their individual case might indicate one approach is preferable to another. Moreover, again, not all applicants can make an online application; only some, those meeting the qualifying criteria. Overall, applicants need to choose for themselves which application approach is best for them.

The standard paper application is available to all adult applicants. For many, perhaps most, it is still probably the better way to apply. For some, perhaps many, it is the ONLY way to make a citizenship application.

For those making a paper application, it is typically better to use the online physical presence calculator (for multiple reasons, accuracy of the calculation itself looming large -- noting, however, that is in regards to counting days and is nonetheless dependent on the applicant completely and accurately entering all travel history dates). There are, however, isolated circumstances which can trigger a glitch in the online physical presence calculator, and in those situations it might be prudent for an applicant to use CIT 0407 to submit their physical presence calculation.

Leading, Finally, To Reporting Additional Countries Visited During An Absence From Canada:

The observation made back in 2020 is still valid for any applicant who makes a paper application and uses the online physical presence calculator; that is, the applicant should specify one country in the Destination field, and list all other countries visited in the "Reason" box.

Assuming it is correct that the online application does not facilitate including a list of additional countries visited during one absence, the question an applicant might want to consider is whether their particular circumstances, including travel outside Canada that involved visiting multiple countries during a single trip, is a reason to NOT use the online application but rather make a paper application, to use the paper application in order to submit the output from the online physical presence calculator in which all this information is declared/reported.

I cannot answer that question for any particular applicant. My sense is that identifying additional countries is probably not much if at all important for many, but might be for others. Not all citizenship applications are created equal. Some are more complicated than others. And some a lot more complicated than others. There is a tendency in this forum to approach questions as if there is one right answer, when very often that is not the case.

Thank you for the elaborate dissertation. While your not-advice refers to the online physical calculator, I am referring to the physical presence calculator section within an online application which is built out a bit differently, in that, it gives the Description text area against the absence whose 'Reason' (built as a drop down) is selected as 'Other', unlike the online physical presence calculator which gives a 'Reason' text area to explain every absence. So, in the former case, if the reason was 'Tourism' wherein more than one countries were visited in the same absence, one would still have to select 'Other' as the 'Reason' (even when Tourism is available as one of the reasons to select) only to have the description section populated where one could then list all the countries. Having said that, I will refer to the instructions on the relevant section.

 

[dpenabill]

. . . the physical presence calculator section within an online application which is built out a bit differently, in that, it gives the Description text area against the absence whose 'Reason' (built as a drop down) is selected as 'Other', unlike the online physical presence calculator which gives a 'Reason' text area to explain every absence. So, in the former case, if the reason was 'Tourism' wherein more than one countries were visited in the same absence, one would still have to select 'Other' as the 'Reason' (even when Tourism is available as one of the reasons to select) only to have the description section populated where one could then list all the countries. Having said that, I will refer to the instructions on the relevant section.

I assume you accurately describe how the online application works.

I almost never suggest giving anything other than a direct, accurate response, and in particular I am not among those here who suggest modifying or changing what they answer to make it fit this or that narrative.

If "Tourism" is the direct, accurate response, that would usually be the best answer. Again, I am not one to suggest giving an alternative answer, other than the most direct accurate answer. If that means there is no space to list countries visited in addition to the destination country for a given trip outside Canada, that does not suggest changing how one answers just to get space to do that . . . rather, it might (but only might) suggest using a paper application instead of an online application.

I do not know how important it is, to IRCC, to get a list of countries in addition to the destination country. If the online application does not include instructions to include this information, that suggests it is not all that important.

For the applicant who only briefly transited other countries, I'd guess no reason to worry about using an application method that does not include disclosing those additional countries (assuming that is consistent with the instructions for that method). In contrast, for an applicant who has spent a considerable amount of time in successive countries, and particularly if there were things like visas or work permits or such involved, that might tip the scales in favour of a paper application rather than an online application, even if only to declare those countries so that a total stranger bureaucrat processing the application is not thrown of by any stamps or permits for those countries in the applicant's passport (such as during an interview).

Whether or not making the application online is a prudent approach for a particular applicant is a personal judgment the individual applicant makes. It is often not about what one can do, but rather about what is the better way to do it.