Permanent Residency Obligations

[dpenabill]

Canada and CBSA have NO ROLE in explaining or enforcing U.S. border controls. NO ROLE in explaining or enforcing U.S. traveler restrictions related to covid-19.

If and when a Canadian traveler arrives at a land crossing PoE, the Canadian (whether a citizen or Permanent Resident) is entitled to enter Canada. Currently most (there are exceptions) are then subject to a mandatory 14 day quarantine IN Canada upon being allowed to enter Canada. This is not affected by any rules applicable to travelers in the U.S.

In particular . . .

Believe you still have to meet the 14 day stay requirement in the US before you can enter Canada.

I recently came back to Canada via the USA from my country. I did not find a requirement to stay in the USA for 14 days before coming to Canada on either government's website. I arrived to New York from my country on Saturday. On Sunday morning I flew to Burlington, took a taxi to the Canadian border. The officer asked me about my trip, let me in, I obviously had to go onto self-isolation in Canada. This was thoroughly monitored. But no questions were asked about 14 day quarantine in the US.

The CBSA agent made an error.

There is NO National quarantine restriction in the U.S. applicable to arriving international travelers generally.

There are restrictions applicable to travelers from certain countries, or who have been in certain countries within a specified time period, but last I looked these were bars to entry not quarantine restrictions. That is, if a traveler has been in one of the prescribed countries recently, that traveler is not be allowed to enter the U.S.

Many individual states in the U.S. have their own quarantine restrictions for travelers. Not sure how these are enforced since there are few (very few) state-based border control stations.

EVEN IF the U.S. had a quarantine requirement, that would NOT be any business of CBSA. Canada does not have any role in the border control done by foreign countries. CBSA would have NOTHING to do with whether or not there is a quarantine in the U.S. And CBSA would have NO role in enforcing any such quarantine.

 

[contactniraj]

Hi @Bentham , can you please let us know if your PR card was expired? and if yes did officer ask about that. and which border crossing did you go to? Thanks in advance.

 

[canuck78]

Hi @Bentham , can you please let us know if your PR card was expired? and if yes did officer ask about that. and which border crossing did you go to? Thanks in advance.

Your previous posts didn’t mention your PR card was expired. When did it expire? How long have you spent in Canada in the past 5 years? How long has your spouse spent in Canada in the past 5 years? You’ve been asking the same question for months. The longer you delay the worse it looks. Wanting your children to be born in the US may have consequences but nobody can guarantee.

 

[contactniraj]

Your previous posts didn’t mention your PR card was expired. When did it expire? How long have you spent in Canada in the past 5 years? How long has your spouse spent in Canada in the past 5 years? You’ve been asking the same question for months. The longer you delay the worse it looks. Wanting your children to be born in the US may have consequences but nobody can guarantee.

Yes, my PR card was expired, that's the reason @Bentham's experience can be helpful when I enter Canada.

 

[armoured]

Canada and CBSA have NO ROLE in explaining or enforcing U.S. border controls. NO ROLE in explaining or enforcing U.S. traveler restrictions related to covid-19.

If and when a Canadian traveler arrives at a land crossing PoE, the Canadian (whether a citizen or Permanent Resident) is entitled to enter Canada. Currently most (there are exceptions) are then subject to a mandatory 14 day quarantine IN Canada upon being allowed to enter Canada. This is not affected by any rules applicable to travelers in the U.S.
...
EVEN IF the U.S. had a quarantine requirement, that would NOT be any business of CBSA. Canada does not have any role in the border control done by foreign countries. CBSA would have NOTHING to do with whether or not there is a quarantine in the U.S. And CBSA would have NO role in enforcing any such quarantine.

I believe the confusion here may be related to the point in the covid restrictions for entry to Canada that reads you must be either "travelling directly from the USA" (or exempt from the travel restrictions).

Note that in this case (entry of a PR) this travelling directly from the USA does not apply - this applies only to 'all other foreign nationals' (i.e. excepting immediate family members).

I don't see a detailed explanation of what travelling directly from the USA means, and not inclined to look it up as not relevant, but presumably means limits on transfers through US airports to Canada and some minimum stay in the USA (what exactly I do not know). That may be relevant to some visitors, of course.

Again, as I read it, the point relevant to this discussion is that CBSA is certainly not enforcing either quarantine while in the USA (whether/if those exist or even possible for CBSA to check) nor some minimum time period in USA for citizens or PRs (or their immediate family members). That part only applies to those who fall in the bucket of 'all other foreign nationals' (after the exemptions).

 

[armoured]

Believe you still have to meet the 14 day stay requirement in the US before you can enter Canada.

I believe this does not apply to PRs. Would of course recommend caution for anyone travelling before relying on this.

But the 14 day stay in US seems to be from this "travelling directly from the USA" which does not seem to apply to citizens or PRs (and their immediate family).

https://www.canada.ca/en/immigratio...19/travel-restrictions-exemptions.html#exempt

 

[dpenabill]

I believe the confusion here may be related to the point in the covid restrictions for entry to Canada that reads you must be either "travelling directly from the USA" (or exempt from the travel restrictions).

Note that in this case (entry of a PR) this travelling directly from the USA does not apply - this applies only to 'all other foreign nationals' (i.e. excepting immediate family members).

I don't see a detailed explanation of what travelling directly from the USA means, and not inclined to look it up as not relevant, but presumably means limits on transfers through US airports to Canada and some minimum stay in the USA (what exactly I do not know). That may be relevant to some visitors, of course.

Again, as I read it, the point relevant to this discussion is that CBSA is certainly not enforcing either quarantine while in the USA (whether/if those exist or even possible for CBSA to check) nor some minimum time period in USA for citizens or PRs (or their immediate family members). That part only applies to those who fall in the bucket of 'all other foreign nationals' (after the exemptions).

A good clarification . . . which, as you note, is NOT relevant to Canadian travelers.

And it is not about complying with any quarantine restrictions imposed by or in the U.S. It is about entry restrictions into Canada for Foreign Nationals (and neither Canadian citizens nor Canadian Permanent Residents are Foreign Nationals under Canadian law) based on the individual's travel history (regarding which, I likewise have not familiarized myself with the details, as those restrictions do NOT relate to or apply to Canadians, whether a citizen or a PR).

 

[armoured]

And it is not about complying with any quarantine restrictions imposed by or in the U.S. It is about entry restrictions into Canada for Foreign Nationals (and neither Canadian citizens nor Canadian Permanent Residents are Foreign Nationals under Canadian law) based on the individual's travel history (regarding which, I likewise have not familiarized myself with the details, as those restrictions do NOT relate to or apply to Canadians, whether a citizen or a PR).

I know you have a fairly strong opinion on what Foreign Nationals means under Canadian law. I'm not a lawyer so don't have an opinion on that.

But I do have a qualification on this, that the guidelines/instructions (to which I linked above) do not seem to use these terms consistently (or at least not in the way you are using them, i.e. consistently with use of the terms in Canadian law under the interpretation that PRs are Canadian nationals.).

I suspect - but I'm not sure - that this is because the instructions (public information) are intended for a general audience.

At any rate, the instructions seem pretty clear for users: the "travelling directly from the USA" instruction does not, under any interpretation, apply to Canadian citizens or PRs. Or more importantly for this discussion, it does not apply to foreign passport holders who are PRs (it does not rely upon a legal definition of foreign nationals), whether they are "Canadians" by law or not.

It's perhaps a bit in the weeds but to avoid confusion. In the context of this discussion, it still doesn't (directly) impact someone with PR status, regardless of their compliance with the residency obligations. Or most concretely and pertinently to the discussion in this thread, if I've understood correctly, a PR (in compliance or not with the RO) can't be turned back at the US border because of not having spent sufficient time in the USA; travelling directly or not from some third country is irrelevant.

Anyway hope I haven't muddied the waters too much with this somewhat-tangential matter; to me the instructions are still reasonably clear and not dependent upon definition of foreign national.

 

[dpenabill]

I know you have a fairly strong opinion on what Foreign Nationals means under Canadian law. I'm not a lawyer so don't have an opinion on that.

But I do have a qualification on this, that the guidelines/instructions (to which I linked above) do not seem to use these terms consistently (or at least not in the way you are using them, i.e. consistently with use of the terms in Canadian law under the interpretation that PRs are Canadian nationals.).

A Canadian PR is a "Canadian," but NOT a "Canadian National."

To be clear, subsection 2(1) IRPA specifically defines a "foreign national" to be a person who is NOT a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident.

Many times in less formal contexts, and sometimes even formal but not official contexts (remember, the IRCC web site information is NOT official, which in turn is another tangent tending to wander deep into the weeds and a labyrinth of confusing complications), the term "Canadian" is indeed used in reference to Canadian citizens in particular, not including PRs. Which unfortunately contributes to the confusion.

Most formal references to "Canadians" is consistent with the distinction between foreign nationals and Canadians, recognizing that "Canadians" includes both citizens and PRs in the sense that they are not "foreign nationals," even though PRs are not "Canadian Nationals."

So far as I have encountered in official sources, if and when a reference is intended to apply to Canadian citizens (that would be Canadian Nationals) but not, or at least not necessarily, Canadian PRs, the provisions explicitly reference "citizens." This includes, in particular, the Constitution and Charter of Rights, the Statutes, and in Regulations, which I have examined and studied rather extensively. I have not paid close attention to this in official judicial decisions, but generally in these too, as best I recall, the distinction is usually maintained, and when there is a potential difference between the individual's status as a citizen versus PR, there is (at least usually in immigration and citizenship related cases) a specific reference to those who are a "citizen."

Among recent examples: early in the response to the Covid-19 pandemic the announcements regarding the repatriation of "Canadians" abroad specifically included PRs in addition to citizens; that is, the term "Canadian" used in those announcements included both.

 

[Bentham]

Canada and CBSA have NO ROLE in explaining or enforcing U.S. border controls. NO ROLE in explaining or enforcing U.S. traveler restrictions related to covid-19.

There is NO National quarantine restriction in the U.S. applicable to arriving international travelers generally.

There are restrictions applicable to travelers from certain countries, or who have been in certain countries within a specified time period, but last I looked these were bars to entry not quarantine restrictions. That is, if a traveler has been in one of the prescribed countries recently, that traveler is not be allowed to enter the U.S.

Many individual states in the U.S. have their own quarantine restrictions for travelers. Not sure how these are enforced since there are few (very few) state-based border control stations.

EVEN IF the U.S. had a quarantine requirement, that would NOT be any business of CBSA. Canada does not have any role in the border control done by foreign countries. CBSA would have NOTHING to do with whether or not there is a quarantine in the U.S. And CBSA would have NO role in enforcing any such quarantine.

Thanks, dpenabill. Could not have been explained better. There is quarantine in Vermont, but only for those who comes to stay there. It does not apply to transit passengers.

 

[armoured]

A Canadian PR is a "Canadian," but NOT a "Canadian National."

To be clear, subsection 2(1) IRPA specifically defines a "foreign national" to be a person who is NOT a Canadian citizen or a permanent resident.

Thanks, I see your point and not disputing it. Was only noting that for the purposes of the question of entering Canada from the USA, the instructions are clear that both Canadian citizens and PRs are allowed in, and the 'directly from the USA' restriction does not apply. They've written the instructions to make explicit that PRs are not in the 'all other foreign nationals' (to whom it does apply).