Not meeting residency obligation.. Travelling to Canada

[reeti81]

Hi...

I got my PR (first entry done) in April 2014 , my current PR card expires on April 2019.... I have lived there for around 2 months. I am short of meeting 730 days residency obligation... But we want to move for good to Canada now and have even sold our house and everything here, resigned from jobs, selling business... Our plan is to travel in Feb 2018 when this entire wrapping up completes....

Option 1- Travel to Toronto airport with a valid PR card but short of residency obligation. In this forum read about earlier cases where IOs at POE were lenient in reporting but all those cases I read were usually of pre-2015.
Q 1A) Any insight if situation is similar (wrt leniency at POE) now or not
Q 1B) If they send me for secondary review and I do get reported, what are the chances of succeeding in appeal. My reason has HnC element as my real sister had medical issues (serious ones) and my parents being old now- I was responsible for the treatment.
Q 1C) If appeal is filed within 30 days of being reported; how long does it take for the appeal to decide. During this period will they allow me to stay in Canada?
Q 1D) As I have wrapped up my business here, so will be bringing in a good decent investment in Canada when I am coming to settle. Will be paying a lot of taxes (on capital gains) in the year I travel itself. Will this give some advantage?
Q 1E) Our daughter is a Canadian citizen (born in Canada) during our earlier visit,, does it help?

Option 2- Travel via US land border to Canada in a private car. Some forum members have expressed that land border agents are more lenient and relaxed. But again all those responses were largely pre-2015. I am from a visa non-exempt country. Have a US B2

Q 2A) Is travelling through US land border really adds some value or going through automated gates at Toronto airport is better?

Option 3- Should not travel on this PR card but apply for a Canadian Travel Document at Canadian consulate in my current country (PS- Residency obligation is not being met but have HnC reasons). This will eliminate all uncertainties wrt entry at Canadian POE

Q 3A) What are the realistic chances of getting travel document in my situation. Will be applying at Canadian consulate at New Delhi- India or Chandigarh- India

Option 4- Renounce my PR from home country and apply for fresh PR. Will have to check yet if still qualify for that and the entire process usually takes 1 year further delaying things.

Q 4A) What is the process of renouncing PR from your home country. Is there any form for renouncing PR
Q 4B) Can I immediately apply for fresh PR (if I qualify as per criteria) after renouncing or have to wait for some period?

Last Question- Which option should I adopt first as per your opinion, I know there is no absolute right or wrong but weighing everything- what in your particular opinion, how I should go about.

 

[rish888]

Hi...

I got my PR (first entry done) in April 2014 , my current PR card expires on April 2019.... I have lived there for around 2 months. I am short of meeting 730 days residency obligation... But we want to move for good to Canada now and have even sold our house and everything here, resigned from jobs, selling business... Our plan is to travel in Feb 2018 when this entire wrapping up completes....

Option 1- Travel to Toronto airport with a valid PR card but short of residency obligation. In this forum read about earlier cases where IOs and POE were lenient in reporting but all those cases I read were usually of pre-2015.
Q 1A) Any insight if situation is similar (wrt leniency at POE) now or not
Q 1B) If they send me for secondary review and I do get reported, what are the chances of succeeding in appeal. My reason has HnC element as my real sister had medical issues (serious ones) and my parents being old now- I was responsible for the treatment.
Q 1C) If appeal is filed within 30 days of being reported; how long does it take for the appeal to decide. During this period will they allow me to stay in Canada?
Q 1D) As I have wrapped up my business here, so will be bringing in a good decent investment in Canada when I am coming to settle. Will be paying a lot of taxes (on capital gains) in the year I travel itself. Will this give some advantage?
Q 1E) Our daughter is a Canadian citizen (born in Canada) during our earlier visit,, does it help?

Option 2- Travel via US land border to Canada in a private car. Some forum members have expressed that land border agents are more lenient and relaxed. But again all those responses were largely pre-2015. I am from a visa non-exempt country. Have a US B2

Q 2A) Is travelling through US land border really adds some value or going through automated gates at Toronto airport is better?

Option 3- Should not travel on this PR card but apply for a Canadian Travel Document at Canadian consulate in my current country (PS- Residency obligation is not being met but have HnC reasons). This will eliminate all uncertainties wrt entry at Canadian POE

Q 3A) What are the realistic chances of getting travel document in my situation. Will be applying at Canadian consulate at New Delhi- India or Chandigarh- India

Option 4- Renounce my PR from home country and apply for fresh PR. Will have to check yet if still qualify for that and the entire process usually takes 1 year further delaying things.

Q 4A) What is the process of renouncing PR from your home country. Is there any form for renouncing PR
Q 4B) Can I immediately apply for fresh PR (if I qualify as per criteria) after renouncing or have to wait for some period?

Last Question- Which option should I adopt first as per your opinion, I know there is no absolute right or wrong but weighing everything- what in your particular opinion, how I should go about.

1: PRTD is for people without a PR Card. You are not one of these people, so DO NOT apply for a PRTD.

2: Land Border is for people without a PR card. You have a PR card. You can still go by land but it's probably inconvenient and doesn't give any measurable benefit IMO.

My recommendation: Plane to Toronto. Use automated processing. Have a clean customs declaration. Don't appear suspicious/give the officer reason to question you.

Also take all your H&C documents in case you need to go to Secondary.

Best Case:

No report. You can enter Canada and live normally. No foreign travel for 2 years. DO NOT renew your PR card until you have been in Canada for 730 days.

Worst Case:

Report and Departure Order.

You will need to appeal. Appeal takes 1-2 years. While waiting for appeal you are still a PR with full rights. You can stay in Canada. You can even get 1-year temporary PR cards.

If you win the appeal, then all is good.

If you loose the appeal, you have 30 days to leave.

Hope this helps.

 

[reeti81]

Thanks Rish for replying ....

If we consider worst is to happen ... They report and give me time for 30 days to appeal .... Do I have to appeal in Canada itself and stay there or can I appeal and come back or can I appeal from India itself..... Reason being, once you appeal - you are never sure what will happen 1 or 2 year down (accepted or rejected) .. So in such an uncertain environment, it would make no sense to invest in a business in Canada because if your appeal gets rejected you might not even be able to sell it in 30 days and return etc ....

If they report me, can I travel back to India and apply for an appeal from here??

or in such a scenario its better to renounce PR and file a fresh PR

your advise?

 

[rish888]

Thanks Rish for replying ....

If we consider worst is to happen ... They report and give me time for 30 days to appeal .... Do I have to appeal in Canada itself and stay there or can I appeal and come back or can I appeal from India itself..... Reason being, once you appeal - you are never sure what will happen 1 or 2 year down (accepted or rejected) .. So in such an uncertain environment, it would make no sense to invest in a business in Canada because if your appeal gets rejected you might not even be able to sell it in 30 days and return etc ....

If they report me, can I travel back to India and apply for an appeal from here??

or in such a scenario its better to renounce PR and file a fresh PR

your advise?

So basically you appeal while in Canada. After you appeal you can leave/reenter Canada as you wish.

Check if you still qualify. If you still qualify then instead of appealing you can leave Canada without appealing. (On your way out you need to confirm with Canadian immigration that you are leaving.) And then reaaply for immigration.

Regardless, first try to enter Canada. Hopefully it all works out. Make sure you have someone in India who can arrange to send your belongings and stuff and handle stuff for you in general.

Bear in mind if you can enter without issue you cannot leave for 2 years.

Good luck!

 

[rish888]

Of course you must plan for worst case, but keep good thoughts. Use automated processing. Also try to book a flight that arrives in the afternoon. (This is when they are most busy.)

 

[rish888]

p.s. "Appealing" only involves send a 1 page form by post to the address of the appealing division. Then you can get a lawyer in Canada to handle the legal stuff for you if that's the route you choose.

 

[Buletruck]

So basically you appeal while in Canada. After you appeal you can leave/reenter Canada as you wish.

Personally, I wouldn’t recommend leaving Canada with an appeal in process. Most of the cases I’ve read on Canlii involving RO place a significant weighting on establishment in Canada. With only 2 months of previous establishment, leaving Canada would, IMO, be a mistake and would weigh against you in an appeal. The more time in Canada (even with an uncertain outcome), the better the chance of success.

Despite the suggestion that the automated kiosks in Toronto on a busy afternoon are the best way to avoid face to face encounters with CBSA personnel (or secondary), there are additional consideration to that. Security and CBSA patrols are likely at their highest, as those with ulterior motives will also assume the busy time is the best time to slip past unnoticed. The chances of being singled out at any point in time in the immigration area, even after passing through the kiosk is still a possibility. You are not free of immigration control until you hand over the immigration slip to the CBSA officer (and it is an CBSA officer who reviews the landing slip) at the door. Along with that, bringing “significant” investments into Canada will require you to report it (or risk loosing it if you don’t and it’s discovered) on your declaration, along with how long you have been away and will likely result in a trip to secondary to confirm its origin.

Realistically, if you don’t meet RO upon entry into Canada the chance of being reported really is hit or miss. There are efforts you can make , but there are far too many variables to consider, and realistically very limited information or solid statistics on how or why CBSA chooses to pursue reporting. Other than the numbers made public, the tactics, strategy and current enforcement by CBSA is relatively unknown to the general public. Overall, once reported, the number of appeals that are successful seem quite low (1 in 10). The number of inquires on this and other forums regarding the topic probably only represents the tip of the iceberg of actual cases, so it’s really anybodies guess how to avoid being reported. It truly is hope for the best, anticipate the worst.

 

[reeti81]

Thanks Bluetruck ...

Money obviously will come through banking channels so I don’t have to report in custom’s form... I won’t be carrying much of physical currency or TC ....

I agree at POE its just luck. If during afternoon, max number of agents are on duty then should I check for alternate airline slots? Any suggestion to enhance one’s probability of passing through?

Someone told me to carry minimum luggage to get noticed ...

But with two kids with us and all the antics kids do, people usually notice

 

[rish888]

Thanks Bluetruck ...

Money obviously will come through banking channels so I don’t have to report in custom’s form... I won’t be carrying much of physical currency or TC ....

I agree at POE its just luck. If during afternoon, max number of agents are on duty then should I check for alternate airline slots? Any suggestion to enhance one’s probability of passing through?

Someone told me to carry minimum luggage to get noticed ...

But with two kids with us and all the antics kids do, people usually notice

You want best odds?

Fly to Minnesota, US, then take a boat to Angle Inlet, Minnesota, US, then have a Canadian friend/family member living in Winnipeg come pick you up from Angle Inlet, then drive back to Canada together. There is no physical border crossing and no CBSA officers. You use a phone to call and report in.

You want next best odds?

Take a train from the U.S. I have read inspections for Canadians (Canadians being both citizens and Permanent residents) are usually quick and perfunctory. This is because they have a lot of people to process and giving Canadians the basic check allows them more time deal with foreigners.

You want what most normal people would do as well as what is most convenient?

Fly at a busy time and use automated processing.

While @Buletruck is correct in his observation that the afternoon is when CBSA's alert status is probably at its highest, returning Canadians (and again this includes both citizens are permanent residents) will probably be given only a basic check as they need to dedicate most of their resources to foreign travellers/suspected criminals etc. Also, if you travel during a busy time and get sent to Secondary, the first officer who reviews your case may be less likely to prepare a report if he has other foreign nationals and more pressing issues to deal with.

There are of course two sides to every coin, and some may take the opposing view, however my view is if you want to stay under the radar go where they are busy.

 

[rish888]

However do note that if for whatever reason you appear like you have done/are doing something wrong, then regardless of the mode of transport/time of day you will be selected for further inspection.

I remember one time I was travelling to my country of citizenship from another country and the airplane's aircon wasn't working and then we needed to wait out in the sun while a bus came to take us to the terminal and by the time I got in the immigration queue I was sweating like crazy. Bear in mind this was my country of citizenship and I'm young/don't present any indicators but the officer took one look at me and sent me to secondary.

 

[canuck78]

Some of these alternates routes you are suggesting will also raise suspicions even through a telephone. If an Indian family showed up at this random port of entry I would think that would be extremely suspicious. No one with kids takes these convoluted ways to get into Canada after a long flight unless they can prove they live right across the border. Take a plane and take the chance and remain in Canada if you appeal.

 

[rish888]

Some of these alternates routes you are suggesting will also raise suspicions even through a telephone. If an Indian family showed up at this random port of entry I would think that would be extremely suspicious. No one with kids takes these convoluted ways to get into Canada after a long flight unless they can prove they live right across the border. Take a plane and take the chance and remain in Canada if you appeal.

Technically they have their valid PR cards (their "proof" to live across the border) so they are not some "Indian family showing up at a random POE." Of course it is mildly convoluted and most definitely inconvenient but I was bluntly answering the OP's question on best odds.

I brought up Angle Inlet because it is actually a very popular tourist spot. When I landed many years ago my family and I went to Angle Inlet for a few days of fishing from Winnipeg. Both ways you call in, and clearance takes just about a minute.

Of course it is inconvenient to go that route unless you genuinely want to fish. (Which after reading the OP's initial post will be difficult to do in February.) Nonetheless, It's an option.

 

[canuck78]

A bit different if you are going on vacation. If a family if new immigrants showed up with all their luggage at Angle Inglet and they could see they just flew from India to the US I think there would definitely be some questions. Your other comments have suggested you should blend in. Showing up a random locations where PRs who just landed rarely show up with tons of luggage will raise suspicions for sure.

 

[rish888]

A bit different if you are going on vacation. If a family if new immigrants showed up with all their luggage at Angle Inglet and they could see they just flew from India to the US I think there would definitely be some questions. Your other comments have suggested you should blend in. Showing up a random locations where PRs who just landed rarely show up with tons of luggage will raise suspicions for sure.

Was giving my personal experience, but granted the OP is in a different situation. The way I remember it I don't even think the person on the other end even checked our travel records. We just walked up to the camera, showed our face and PR card, and that was it. Still remains the most interesting way I have ever crossed a border. Plus it's a call in so no one actually sees the luggage you have.

To the OP,

As I mentioned in my original post do what normal people do as well as what is convenient and fly. You have a valid PR card and a year left on it until expiry. This diminishes (but does not eradicate) chances of something going wrong.

Just remember: Don't sweat.

 

[navneet1983]

Just reading about this situation and am curious to know .. given that their PR card is still valid and they have good 1.5 years before their card expires .. even if they are questioned and/or sent to secondary .. wouldn’t the chances be low that they get ‘reported’ .. I mean they could simply explain the situation with some valid reasons on why they got late just by 4-5 months ? Are the officer very particular about 730 days or is it more about the intention ?