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NOC rejection. Anyone?

Ezgi84

Hero Member
Feb 9, 2017
252
11
Istanbul
Category........
NOC Code......
0124
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
AOR Received.
04-05-2017
IELTS Request
Upfront
Med's Request
Upfront
Med's Done....
06-03-2017
msudershan2 said:
Just to give my opinion on this

I have given three reference letter and fingers crossed, I am assuming everything is going fine as File is with NDVO.

I worked as Biological Scientist and honestly I didn't put 60% of Responsibilities as Molecular Biologist does only 3-4 mentioned in NOC Code 2121 compared to Pharmacologist who only do 4-5 mentioned in NOC Code 2121. Now CIC is putting this immense pressure on you to ask companies to put around 60% on paper, I don't think so! Therefore when people say to put at least 50-60% of your responsibilities, how could that be true, you can be 60% of all job titles mentioned in the NOC Code. I went to CIIP Session in Hyderabad where I had the opportunity to ask this question to Visa Officer / Case Analyst (at least that what they said they have experience of handling applications, so I assumed they are VOs or Case Analysts) and they say...they do not expect even 50% of responsibilities on Reference Letter (If you get this is obviously great)....They check Company - R&D, Awesome (Company Profile Fits) >> They are ok with 20-30% as long as company's profile show this. One of them mentioned all they want to assure that what you are saying is genuine!

Now I have also worked in Consulting...and CIC has put this again Broad Remit of NOC Code 4163 (Market Researcher, Consultants, and Business Development Officers)...how could you expect that consultant do work of Market Researcher if you want to fill that 60% thing...(In my opinion, this usually comes from people working in IT, my opinion do not take anything against me on this)....but this doesn't work for other NOC Codes

Now here I tell I showed Three Employers

Employer 1 (UK): Worked for 2 years. Big Pharma R&D - Wasn't able to get Reference Letter, just a letter from HR mentioning Salary, Hours, Position and she also mentioned due to EU Guidelines they are not able to issue such letters. I attached Payslips, Awards, Contract Letter, Promotion Letter along with Reference from Mentor in Big Pharma R&D on simple paper (Not even got it Notarized as she gave her Business Card and to show authenticity I even scanned Courier Package showing that she sent from the UK to India)

Employer 2 (Switzerland): Worked for a year to be precise 10 months. Known Pharma Consulting firm, however very brief reference letter which states my Roles within 4 lines. Attached Pay Slips + Income Tax Documents and luckily HR here also mentioned due to EU Guidelines on Data Protection they cannot give out detailed letters. Made my case even more strong

Employer 3 (India): Worked for a year to be precise 10 months. Start Up (Pharma Analytics) Ended on a bad note, never showed reference letter. Explained the reason company is not willing to give reference letter. Still attached Payslips, Promotion Letter, Resignation Letter, Form 16 and Income Tax Documents.

Employer 4 (India): Worked for 2 years to be precise 22.5 months. Small Start Up, however known in Pharma Market Research and Consulting. Gave 3 Page Detailed Letter (OMG this company went crazy)...on that and they even asked me if I am satisfied. They were the only one who actually mentioned 60-70% of responsibilities. Still attached Payslips, Promotion Letter, Resignation Letter, Form 16 and Income Tax Documents.

Since my file is at NDVO, I am assuming it passed A11.2 and R10 Review (Been 3.5 Months)...

In conclusion, I think company's core business should reflect what you are doing and please attach any documents you can for the employer. It just gives credibility and reliability to your work experience. Remember they want to establish you are genuine!

This is just my opinion.

I never showed my current job as I think I had documents to prove my 24 +10 + 10 + 22 = 66 Months Work Ex (5.5 Years) which gives me maximum points. Yes I do wake up in middle of night thinking that my AOR was in Nov End and mostly 40-50% have got PPRs, however, I have immense travel history and I do keep contemplating that what I have provided is more than sufficient to tell that I am genuine

I hope this helps people that it's not all matching duties. Think in shoes of VOs
I think this was an extremely helpful post +1

In my opinion this is kind of a case that can be given as an example (regarding the fact that the first company did not actually provide a cic formatted reference and I am thinking even without it you should be fine with whatever they provided you)

Regarding what they have said about the company profile is something new for me... I never thought they would actually go after the company and see what it does... because not all people are employed by big companies, so there must be some serious due diligence then ?
 

msudershan2

Star Member
Apr 8, 2016
183
18
Bangalore
Visa Office......
New Delhi
NOC Code......
4163
App. Filed.......
27-11-2016
Doc's Request.
No Document Request Came
Nomination.....
Not Applicable
AOR Received.
27-11-2016
IELTS Request
Upfront
File Transfer...
06-03-2017
Med's Request
Upfront
Med's Done....
29-11-2016
Interview........
Not Needed
Passport Req..
13-04-2017
VISA ISSUED...
21-04-2017
LANDED..........
25-09-2017
I don't know why people keep saying +1 (what is this?! :eek:)...I do not use this forum that often...more of silent reader...now I started doing it as I really get pissed off people saying 60-70% Duties thing! (Yes that works, but not for NOC Codes like Chemist, Biochemists or Biologists or even for Consultants Codes

They check companies just to make sure...probably googling it could tell if this is Market Research or Consulting. Please note even well-known companies might not be known to VOs. So they could do random Google Search!

Remember you need to prove yourself Genuine! That's all
 
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kryt0n

VIP Member
Sep 30, 2014
5,422
274
NOC Code......
2172
AOR Received.
16-03-2017
Passport Req..
11-07-2017
msudershan2 said:
I don't know why people keep saying +1 (what is this?! :eek:)...I do not use this forum that often...more of silent reader...now I started doing it as I really get pissed off people saying 60-70% Duties thing! (Yes that works, but not for NOC Codes like Chemist, Biochemists or Biologists or even for Consultants Codes

They check companies just to make sure...probably googling it could tell if this is Market Research or Consulting. Please note even well-known companies might not be known to VOs. So they could do random Google Search!

Remember you need to prove yourself Genuine! That's all
+1 is good kama.

Under your name on the left is [good] [bad].

If someone is helpful click good (+1)
 
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thecoldperson

Full Member
Feb 13, 2017
22
0
g126 said:
They do show flexibility, but:
- If you Reference Letter is just a Copy and Paste of your NOC description
- If you don't have duties that match at least 60% of what's stated on your NOC

You MAY be in trouble!

This depends and a few things:
- For CEC they expect a letter matching the NOC pretty closely as Canadians Companies should know how to write such letters
- For FSW there is more discretion, but still if they are not convinced you do at least 60% of what you're supposed to do then you may have problems (see below)
- For PNP they may exercise even more discretion given that the province has already looked over the ref letter and is happy with it (but that's not always the case)

As for problems, these may be as follows:
- You may get a call form the officer basically interviewing you about your position
- You company/manager may get a call (this may happen even if your ref letter is 100% - depends on how reputable your company is I guess)
- You may be called in for an interview to better explain your activities (this is more common for self employed)
- You may be refused on the basis that the office is not satisfied that you can do what your NOC requires

I've also seen more than one case of refusal just because the reference letter supplied had the same duties as in the NOC word for word (copy and paste). But again this may depend on how reputable you company is.

Not necessarily, if you claim NOC of a doctor but have engineering duties in you ref letter (still Skill A) you'll get refused.

Again... You company's reputation matters, yes! If they are a global company and they are present in Canada then it's quite probable there will be more discretion, but to me this counts more towards the question of whether or not they'll be contacted than if they'll accept your duties for your NOC.
Thanks a ton g126 for the detailed explanation. Really appreciate it. Keep up the goodwork
 

g126

Champion Member
Feb 22, 2016
2,096
156
124
Sao Paulo
Category........
PNP
Visa Office......
São Paulo
NOC Code......
2171
App. Filed.......
27-01-2016
Doc's Request.
16-12-2016
Nomination.....
09-12-2016
AOR Received.
07-01-2017
File Transfer...
18-02-2017
Med's Request
UPFRONT
Med's Done....
15-12-2016
Passport Req..
16-06-2017
VISA ISSUED...
22-06-2017
LANDED..........
09-10-2017
msudershan2 said:
...
Since my file is at NDVO, I am assuming it passed A11.2 and R10 Review (Been 3.5 Months)...
...
Incorrect! You'd need GCMS notes to confirm that you've passed A11.2. The best you can hope for after you file has been transferred is Recommend Pass, and, your file may have gone to NDVO with remarks such as "Recommend Interview as unsufficient evidence on ref letters" - Note that I'm not saying this is your case just MAKING UP an example. Fact is by now (after 3.5 months) it is very likely that you've passed eligibility.

msudershan2 said:
I don't know why people keep saying +1 (what is this?! :eek:)...I do not use this forum that often...more of silent reader...now I started doing it as I really get pissed off people saying 60-70% Duties thing! (Yes that works, but not for NOC Codes like Chemist, Biochemists or Biologists or even for Consultants Codes

They check companies just to make sure...probably googling it could tell if this is Market Research or Consulting. Please note even well-known companies might not be known to VOs. So they could do random Google Search!

Remember you need to prove yourself Genuine! That's all
60% of duties is a guideline that's all... The problem with putting down just one or two things out of a NOC that had 5-10 is that the visa officer may classify in under a different NOC. Perhaps even a lesser NOC (skill B, C, etc.). And there have been plenty of rejections due to miss matched NOCs reported on the forum.

As an example, you may be an Information systems analysts and consultants (2171) but have recently been heavily involved in system testing, so you reference letter has only that one singe duty on it - application testing... Well the officer could very well reclassify that as Information systems testing technicians (2283). By mentioning the other duties you avoid that.

Obviously this may not be applicable to your NOC, as a biochemist (or chemist, etc) you may have very unique duties that an officer can not interpret as a different NOC.
 

Srushti

Hero Member
Oct 25, 2016
352
107
Toronto
Category........
FSW
Visa Office......
Ottawa
App. Filed.......
01-03-2017
Doc's Request.
31-03-2017
Nomination.....
N/A
AOR Received.
26-05-2017
IELTS Request
Upfront
Med's Request
Upfront
Interview........
N/A
Passport Req..
01-08-2017
torontodreams85 said:
my previous application was rejected due to NOC mismatch
What was the NOC ?
and was it not matching with your job titles ?
 

msudershan2

Star Member
Apr 8, 2016
183
18
Bangalore
Visa Office......
New Delhi
NOC Code......
4163
App. Filed.......
27-11-2016
Doc's Request.
No Document Request Came
Nomination.....
Not Applicable
AOR Received.
27-11-2016
IELTS Request
Upfront
File Transfer...
06-03-2017
Med's Request
Upfront
Med's Done....
29-11-2016
Interview........
Not Needed
Passport Req..
13-04-2017
VISA ISSUED...
21-04-2017
LANDED..........
25-09-2017
g126 said:
Incorrect! You'd need GCMS notes to confirm that you've passed A11.2. The best you can hope for after you file has been transferred is Recommend Pass, and, your file may have gone to NDVO with remarks such as "Recommend Interview as unsufficient evidence on ref letters" - Note that I'm not saying this is your case just MAKING UP an example. Fact is by now (after 3.5 months) it is very likely that you've passed eligibility.

60% of duties is a guideline that's all... The problem with putting down just one or two things out of a NOC that had 5-10 is that the visa officer may classify in under a different NOC. Perhaps even a lesser NOC (skill B, C, etc.). And there have been plenty of rejections due to miss matched NOCs reported on the forum.

As an example, you may be an Information systems analysts and consultants (2171) but have recently been heavily involved in system testing, so you reference letter has only that one singe duty on it - application testing... Well the officer could very well reclassify that as Information systems testing technicians (2283). By mentioning the other duties you avoid that.

I was only talking about 2121 and 4163 NOC Codes. It's not at all possible to show 2121 under any other NOC Code. Very stupidly 2121 includes all Biologists (Pharmacologist, Clinical Researchers, Preclinical Safety, Pharmacokineticist, Biochemist, Molecular Biologist, Biotechnologist, etc. IT is different neither I have the experience nor I comment on it but 60-70% cannot work for Biologists nor for Market Researchers, Business Development Officers and / or Consultants

Obviously this may not be applicable to your NOC, as a biochemist (or chemist, etc) you may have the unique duties that an officer can not interpret as a different NOC.
 

msudershan2

Star Member
Apr 8, 2016
183
18
Bangalore
Visa Office......
New Delhi
NOC Code......
4163
App. Filed.......
27-11-2016
Doc's Request.
No Document Request Came
Nomination.....
Not Applicable
AOR Received.
27-11-2016
IELTS Request
Upfront
File Transfer...
06-03-2017
Med's Request
Upfront
Med's Done....
29-11-2016
Interview........
Not Needed
Passport Req..
13-04-2017
VISA ISSUED...
21-04-2017
LANDED..........
25-09-2017
I was only talking about 2121 and 4163 NOC Codes. It's not at all possible to show 2121 under any other NOC Code. Very stupidly 2121 includes all Biologists (Pharmacologist, Clinical Researchers, Preclinical Safety, Pharmacokineticist, Biochemist, Molecular Biologist, Biotechnologist, etc. IT is different neither I have the experience nor I comment on it but 60-70% cannot work for Biologists nor for Market Researchers, Business Development Officers and / or Consultant (Only Pharma Consultant)
 

Lailina

Hero Member
May 17, 2015
260
15
Category........
NOC Code......
5226
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
29.03.2017
AOR Received.
29.03.2017
Med's Done....
...
Passport Req..
...
VISA ISSUED...
...
LANDED..........
...
Guys, I feel confused... Which 60% are we talking? ???

I thought we have to match our duties to the list of responsibilities that is mentioned on CIC for our position only, not to the whole NOC!!! :eek:
Lets say in my NOC we have 50-70 different positions/jobs and they are not even close to each other. Some are technical, while others are administrative...
In my NOC I can see duties for 5-7 positions only, the rest are not even covered, neither is mine. That`s why I checked jobbank for some ads for my position to see what duties are mentioned there...
is my understanding wrong?
 

kryt0n

VIP Member
Sep 30, 2014
5,422
274
NOC Code......
2172
AOR Received.
16-03-2017
Passport Req..
11-07-2017
Lailina said:
Guys, I feel confused... Which 60% are we talking? ???

I thought we have to match our duties to the list of responsibilities that is mentioned on CIC for our position only, not to the whole NOC!!! :eek:
Lets say in my NOC we have 50-70 different positions/jobs and they are not even close to each other. Some are technical, while others are administrative...
In my NOC I can see duties for 5-7 positions only, the rest are not even covered, neither is mine. That`s why I checked jobbank for some ads for my position to see what duties are mentioned there...
is my understanding wrong?
Each noc code has a list of example job titles. Your job title doesn't have to match any of them.

Once you pick a noc that matches your DUTIES (usually 5-10 listed per noc) you have to try and match at least 60% of them. They shouldn't match word for word.
 

Pawshi

Hero Member
Apr 2, 2016
704
156
New Delhi
Category........
Visa Office......
New Delhi
NOC Code......
0111
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
April 2016
Folks,

Please help me with your peer reviews - Does my R&R matches with the NOC 0111?

NOC 0111 (Financial Manager) - R&R
Main duties

  • Financial managers perform some or all of the following duties:
    Plan, organize, direct, control and evaluate the operation of an accounting, audit or other financial department
    Develop and implement the financial policies, systems and procedures of an establishment
    Prepare or co-ordinate the preparation of financial statements, summaries, and other cost-benefit analyses and financial management reports
    Co-ordinate the financial planning and budget process, and analyze and correct estimates
    Supervise the development and implementation of financial simulation models
    Evaluate financial reporting systems, accounting procedures and investment activities and make recommendations for changes to procedures, operating systems, budgets and other financial control functions to senior managers and other department or regional managers
    Recruit, organize, train and manage staff
    Act as liaison between the organization and its shareholders, the investing public and external financial analysts
    Establish profitability standards for investment activities and handle mergers and/or acquisitions
    Notify and report to senior management concerning any trends that are critical to the organization's financial performance.

My R&R is as follows -

1. Employment 1

o Plan, organise, direct, control and evaluate the operations of the accounting function.
o Management of accounting activities including general ledger, preparation and account reconciliation along with year-end audit preparation.
o Accounting processes including periodic – monthly, quarterly and yearly closure of accounts, management of cash and bank transactions.
o Notify and report to the senior management on trends and addressing queries related to the company’s accounting and financial records.
o Evaluate accounting procedure and reporting systems, identify process improvement & automation opportunities, make recommendations for changes to procedures, operating systems, and other financial control functions to senior managers and other departments, and implement the changes, once approved.
o Perform quality control measures over all data, reconciliations, journal entries and reports to ensure accuracy and completeness.
o Team management including recruitment, goal setting, merit assessment, performance appraisal, trainings, etc.

Employment 2

o Development and implementation of financial policies, systems and procedures.
o Accounting processes including periodic and yearly closure of accounts, management of cash and bank transactions for expenses and purchases, fixed assets management, PO Management, preparation of periodical accounts, statutory & internal audit.
o Financial planning including budgeting, forecasting, trend and variance analysis.
o Management reporting including board meeting presentations, continuous monitoring of operations and identifying areas for system improvement.
o Contracts management, vendor payment, cash and receivables Management and investment management.
o Team management including recruitment, goal setting, merit assessment, performance appraisal, trainings, etc.
o Regulatory liaison and representations including direct & in-direct taxation issues.
o Corporate social responsibility initiatives.

Employment 3 (On deputation from employer of # 2)

o Prepare and co-ordinate the preparation of financial statements, summaries, and other cost-benefit analyses and financial management reports.
o Periodic and yearly closure of accounts, and supporting statutory and internal audit.
o Financial planning including budgeting, forecasting, trend and variance analysis.
o Contracts management and scrutinizing vendor payments.
o Support foreign remittances and resolve direct-tax issues locally and through corporate Headquarter.
 

Lailina

Hero Member
May 17, 2015
260
15
Category........
NOC Code......
5226
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
App. Filed.......
29.03.2017
AOR Received.
29.03.2017
Med's Done....
...
Passport Req..
...
VISA ISSUED...
...
LANDED..........
...
kryt0n said:
Each noc code has a list of example job titles. Your job title doesn't have to match any of them.

Once you pick a noc that matches your DUTIES (usually 5-10 listed per noc) you have to try and match at least 60% of them. They shouldn't match word for word.
well, that is what i am afraid of. The fact is that I found exactly the job title in NOC 5226 (i didnt match that, its just exactly mine), but i cant see the duties mentioned for my job title, the only duties mentioned under my NOC are of those who do the technical job... does it mean that i chose the wrong NOC? :eek: then why all those coordinating (non-technical) job titles are even mentioned there???