My expriences so far ... first two days in Toronto!!!

[Jinuvik]

Jazibkg, I respect your opinion, and I also agree with you, 17 dollars/ an hour is really underpaid for accountant. But Vancouver economy is really in bad situation. The government made political choice towards a more socialistic society, favoring union towards entrepreneurship. The situation in Vancouver as you describe it is very problematic as most rent are higher than Alberta and the wages are really lower. My friends bookkeeper in Calgary are getting paid 28-30 dollars an hour so the accountant must be getting even more than that. Personally I think that the American Dream in Canada is more real in Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and all over Northern Canada. Good luck for your projects.

 

[david1697]

Personally I think that the American Dream in Canada is more real in Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and all over Northern Canada. Good luck for your projects.

How accurate is this statement? I like what I hear from you, but I also see how many people struggle to get any job in Canada.

 

[Jinuvik]

David, yeah I am not sure, thats why I said I think. You have to understand that I am mainly surrounded by trades people and I dont know any that struggle to find a job in Canada, wether it is in the East or in the West, wether they are immigrant or Canadian. So my statement is not entirely accurate as you said because I dont know many immigrant white collar. The thing I know for sure is that for trade people, Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the best place to go along with the whole northern Canada. And it is also true that my Canadian friend or acquaintance that are White Collar seems to have more difficulties to find work.

 

[mrbeachman]

With all due respect mrbeachman,

There are skyscrapers in many cities of the third world/develping countries.
And there are some locals/native individuals who actually own them.

There are also an upper middle or middle class in most of those countries, and they may do well materially or 'ok' as your GF does.

We are not talking about the wealthiest (mafioso type corrupted state officials and very closely connected to them circles), nor
about those who found a way to get by (who knows what your GF dad or mom had to go through to give her a 'normal' life in Thailand, unless they themselves were born into normal lifestyle and were lucky to be able to maintain it. Not an easy task in itself in countries with rampant corruption and volatility).

We are talking about ordinary citizens who are born without privileges, are disadvantaged, constantly discriminated gainst and held down in their own native lands, throughout entire Third World/Developing countries. Some of them have high qualifications, like Indians who travel from India to UAE and put up with all sorts of insults and hardships before they can move to Canada or elsewhere.

What kind of opportunity those people have in their Native lands or in neighboring countries? What rights do they have if smeone exploits them,never pays agreed upon wages or even keeps them in enslaved conditions?

As poster above mentioned, child prostitution in Thailand is not invention of his fantasy, it's a real tragedy that exists there and everyone knows it.
Also, how about personal safety? Occasionally Westerners die in Bangkok under dubious curcumstances and very 'thorough' investigation by local police quickly rules it out as a suicide or substance abuse/overdose. I keep a tab on global news and a month doesn't go by without a report of some tourist tragically dying over there. What is the worth of human life in that part of the world? It's a rhetoric question, IMHO.

Best regards

You are nitpicking about police, corruption and pretty much everything else. Every single day there is a new report in USA and Canada about cops murdering innocent civilians who never lose their jobs, let alone get charged with anything. Just the other day there was a police cruiser in Montreal that run over a child, killed it and police won't even release this murderer's name. It is just extremely funny and typical of North American mentality to pick on other countries while they think their own garbage gets unnoticed. Reminds me of many westerners who live here, complain daily about Thailand, but for some reason they just won't leave to their great US of A or UK. I wonder why. If anything I respect Thai police more because at least corruption is right there in the open and not cowardly like in Canada.

As for Child prostitution we all now who the biggest "consumers" of that trade are.... yet you blame Thailand?

Certain religions basically invented it.

Extremely hypocritical to say the least.

They have deleted my posts, maybe Beachman was just offended that I argue with details. Freedom of speech
But thanks David I completely share your point of view

Sorry... I have nothing to do with your deleted posts. That's not my schtick. This is Canadian forum and the only reason I discuss SA country I live in is because inaccurate posts have been made about life outside Canada.

 

[rhcohen2014]

For people like me (accountant by education), I feel that Canada somehow overpays blue collar work (not that you guys don't deserve it) and underpays white collar work. I'm earning at least 10% less than I was earning in the UK. However Canada does have many tax credits and all so I might be able to increase my disposable income (I didn't qualify for any tax credits in the UK).

right, and doesn't that have to do with supply and demand? more and more people are becoming educated to do "white collar" jobs. less and less people are learning "blue collar" trades. when there are more people than opportunities (white collar) - demand goes down, as does salary. there is more competition among job-seekers, so employers can be stingy with salary (as labor is a high cost for businesses, and the main concern is maximizing profit). if candidate A doesn't take the deal, then all they need to find is that one person between B and Z that will. when there is more demand than supply (blue collar), then employers are going to pay top dollar for work they can not do themselves. it's basic economics.

 

[david1697]

You are nitpicking about police, corruption and pretty much everything else. Every single day there is a new report in USA and Canada about cops murdering innocent civilians who never lose their jobs, let alone get charged with anything. Just the other day there was a police cruiser in Montreal that run over a child, killed it and police won't even release this murderer's name. It is just extremely funny and typical of North American mentality to pick on other countries while they think their own garbage gets unnoticed. Reminds me of many westerners who live here, complain daily about Thailand, but for some reason they just won't leave to their great US of A or UK. I wonder why. If anything I respect Thai police more because at least corruption is right there in the open and not cowardly like in Canada.

As for Child prostitution we all now who the biggest "consumers" of that trade are.... yet you blame Thailand?

Certain religions basically invented it.

Extremely hypocritical to say the least.

I am an atheist and usually don't pass up an opportunity to make a case and criticize organized religions as main culprits and source of many misfortunes people suffered throughout history. But what this has to do with the fact that child prostitution is a dark reality of Thailand?
If you blame demand, which I don't disagree with in principle, then how do you explain the fact that it's indeed Thailand where those "in demand" usually go to , rather than Canada, US or some other developed Western country? Doesn't the country which appease and accommodate the demand share the responsibility?

Cops accidentally killing one or another innocent person is a problem no one will deny, but how many random tourists have you heard of being murdered in US or Canada, whether by cops or local gangs?

Unlike Northern Americans you refer to, I have a personal experience of being born and having lived through my teen ages in one of the "wonderful" non-Western countries. I never fail to criticize things I find to be deserving of criticism here, but I never lose a sight of a bigger picture either.

 

[jazibkg]

Jazibkg, I respect your opinion, and I also agree with you, 17 dollars/ an hour is really underpaid for accountant. But Vancouver economy is really in bad situation. The government made political choice towards a more socialistic society, favoring union towards entrepreneurship. The situation in Vancouver as you describe it is very problematic as most rent are higher than Alberta and the wages are really lower. My friends bookkeeper in Calgary are getting paid 28-30 dollars an hour so the accountant must be getting even more than that. Personally I think that the American Dream in Canada is more real in Alberta, Manitoba, Saskatchewan and all over Northern Canada. Good luck for your projects.

Oh well, they have moved a bit left from center. $28/hour for bookkeeping work? Wow. Yes, that's the thing about Canada we can't really speak entirely for itself because the provincial situations are so diverse. We'll find a way. Glad that you have though

 

[jazibkg]

I am an atheist and usually don't pass up an opportunity to make a case and criticize organized religions as main culprits and source of many misfortunes people suffered throughout history. But what this has to do with the fact that child prostitution is a dark reality of Thailand?
If you blame demand, which I don't disagree with in principle, then how do you explain the fact that it's indeed Thailand where those "in demand" usually go to , rather than Canada, US or some other developed Western country? Doesn't the country which appease and accommodate the demand share the responsibility?

Cops accidentally killing one or another innocent person is a problem no one will deny, but how many random tourists have you heard of being murdered in US or Canada, whether by cops or local gangs?

Unlike Northern Americans you refer to, I have a personal experience of being born and having lived through my teen ages in one of the "wonderful" non-Western countries. I never fail to criticize things I find to be deserving of criticism here, but I never lose a sight of a bigger picture either.

I don't think I get your point entirely, but the 'demand' also comes from western and eastern tourists alike in Thailand. Everybody shares the blame.

 

[david1697]

I don't think I get your point entirely, but the 'demand' also comes from western and eastern tourists alike in Thailand. Everybody shares the blame.

I am not disputing where the demand is coming from, nor do I suggest that those who come to Thailand to abuse and exploit children are not sharing a blame, but I question mrbeachman whether he places all blame with demand and sees no fault with Thailand, a country which accommodates this sort of a demand.

 

[buliwyf]

The major challenge of being an "adult" immigrant is it's really hard to make "real" friends, which people can only make by "growing up" together.

Also, here in Canada, below 40 is considered "very young." That's why us in our late 20's to early 30's are basically looked upon as "kids."

 

[david1697]

David, yeah I am not sure, thats why I said I think. You have to understand that I am mainly surrounded by trades people and I dont know any that struggle to find a job in Canada, wether it is in the East or in the West, wether they are immigrant or Canadian. So my statement is not entirely accurate as you said because I dont know many immigrant white collar. The thing I know for sure is that for trade people, Alberta, Manitoba and Saskatchewan are the best place to go along with the whole northern Canada. And it is also true that my Canadian friend or acquaintance that are White Collar seems to have more difficulties to find work.

It's actually great that Canada respects its' blue collar workers and rewards them with adequate compensation.

I remember just before mid 90's we had a culture in USA where workers were much respected. No matter what you did, as long as you worked to earn your bread (didn't steal,didn't sell illegal substances etc), people were respectful of you. It wasn't about how much money you made or what your title or profession was, it was about being an honest worker in America, doing an earnest job.
I think this state of mentality in society keeps morale (not talking about morals) high, brings more harmony and almost certainly results in higher work ethics and performance.
So, it's great if you have it in Canada, in this day and age. One more reason to like it where you are.

But I also think that it's just as necessary for society to respect and reward those who do white collar jobs or go after intellectual pursuits.

 

[polara69]

It's actually great that Canada respects its' blue collar workers and rewards them with adequate compensation.

Simple reason for that? We have too many chiefs and not enough indians.. Everyone wants a "clean" job. If I could choose again? I would do the same again as 28 years ago. Trade over university any days!!

 

[jazibkg]

I am not disputing where the demand is coming from, nor do I suggest that those who come to Thailand to abuse and exploit children are not sharing a blame, but I question mrbeachman whether he places all blame with demand and sees no fault with Thailand, a country which accommodates this sort of a demand.

Personally I wouldn't blame Thailand either. Any country with such a demand will eventually succumb to it. There will always be immoral people monetizing and capitalizing on whatever demand there is just for a few dollars more. This world works this way. Create a haven for one thing and all the perpetrators flock to it.

 

[david1697]

All in all, it's Third World/Developing country where people flock to exploit children en mass, not to US or Canada.
And country that accommodates this type of vice is ultimately responsible for it. There is just no way around it.

Anyway my main point was that , aside from economy, there are other important factors, among them your rights as a human being and protection of your rights , liberty and freedom. On all those accounts countries of Third World/Developing world severely lag behind.

I am not saying that we have everything without blemishes in US or Canada, but issues we have here pale when you objectively compare them to what goes on on those parts of the world.

 

[CharlotteJ]

It is so interesting to read these comments and replies, the intellectually loaded replies, the job related ones and the Thailand vs Canada/West point of views ...

1. I have not deleted anything, perhaps the mods have done, let that be clear.

2. Let's talk about Canada and keep the respect in not calling me a spoiled European brat. Perhaps I was for I was used to travel back and forth staying at 5 star hotels, driving big cars, seeing lovely friends/family in posh area's having no idea that the waiter or hotel maid I spoke with in a fun way, was doing such a harsh work to keep me satisfied let alone about my shopping spree's and the poor sales people who I later found out how hard they work, how little they make, long hours, low wages, zero respect from their employer and a hierarchy that makes Imperial Indian style fade away in comparison ... but sure I wasn't that spoiled either.

3. I thought it may be easier to find a job as an European, but I was wrong ... in fact, it is easier to find a job as an Asian or African or Middle Eastern given certain area's of industry are pretty much in a certain hand and one hand is above the other ... so ..what I tried to teach new comers to Canada: learn to network .. don't stick to your own community, but make friends, talk to each other, be nice to each other, learn, you would never know, you would never know that one day, the people you face, is the very same person who is going to help you land a first job!!! ... FIRST .. I mean .. or your one and only if you are very lucky of course.

4. I worked hard, I saw injustice, A whole lot of it ... never in Europe, before and since I am back, despite the austerity, the lingering misery and such, still by far not even one bit close to what I saw there ... and I have friends from every possible layer of the society and from all over the World .. my facebook is a melting pot of all cultures and nationalities where we communicate through English language and so far, it seems that I am the only one (among with my other European friends) who are truly living ... living a life that may be much more moderate and quiet than those in North America by comparison, but at least we have a life we can talk about ...

We still have some good rights, we can go on holidays, regardless of whether or not you are a banker or a cleaner, if you work full time, you are entitled to 26 days of holiday and 8% holiday allowance each ... not depending on your age or years of experience .. I know friends in Canada who are young and hardly have 15 days of holiday a year and work their butts off to make ends meet and can't not even use their holidays to go anywhere ... and I also know those who are older, much older, have like 40 days a year holiday but yet again, they too can not afford doing much or if so, just a few short trips to places where shops are the same as in Toronto or Vancouver, scenery maybe a bit different, but culturally the same unless it is for some beach side resort in Mexico or Guatemala??!!!

Here, we can drive to any city we want, take the train and go get around for a little and at least see something else, different places, different cultures ... food, architecture, art, anything you want ...

But such is life ... one likes it this way, the other not ... to each his/her own right?

It doesn't matter where you live and what you like, as long as you are prepared to make sacrifices ... we no longer live in 1910's or let's say 1950's when one could truly embark on a new adventure and make it work in no time, build a new future based on security of money and finances ... today, ah well you know it all better than me ... nothing is permanent ... if you make some money, you must be more than happy to have a job at all..any job ..

so ... to think that Canada is a better place, yes, sure, certainly, if you live in India, SE Asia or so as David mentioned I guess and has had enough of injustice, corruption and having no rights, yes, if you can make it somewhere else, for the sake of your children, do it...

but if you can afford living where you are and perhaps change your own situation to have it better, then think twice ... you may need to make many many sacrifices to land at the same spot where you left ... it is also time that matters..

Moving to Canada or anywhere else, means you set back your clock with 4 to 5 years to be at the very same spot where you left.

I thought, when I made the choice to return, that it may take me 4 to 5 years to start all over and be back on the same level, but surprisingly, maybe for it being Europe, I did it all in 2 years and I am now at a much better shape than then.

Have a good job, self employed, something I could have never thought of before my move to Canada, but having done so, I learnt so much, It changed me .. it made me believe in many things I didn't believe and nothing could anymore stand in my way ...

and I learnt something else too ... which I hope you all can use wisely in your daily search for jobs or when dealing with dilemma's of daily life ..

Keep telling to yourself that " YOU HAVE NOTHING TO LOSE BUT ALL TO WIN" ... and I did that and I got it ...

My husband set his own firm too, in IT and is all too happy ever since, while many are laid off in different industries, he is fine .. there is a dire need for professional IT workers in pretty much all of (Northern) Europe ... also in construction and such ... high skilled workers are difficult to find ... but sure, you also need to learn the languages, deal with the winters, grey weather .. cloudy skies, less friendly people, less of things you are used to back home, for Europe is not like Canada ... it is not a melting pot and although there are signs it is changing but still it is not that much to say it is a multicultural continent ... no it is not.

...

one more thing .. I know this Egyptian young man since recently, I met him while in Germany on a short trip, funnily enough, he appeared to have been made the move to Canada (Vancouver) and a rather highly educated on but also a handy man, somebody who can make a house for you with whatever he finds, ... I asked him how come he came back? .. he was making a good money, had a good life ... etc etc ... his response:

Europe is old, I can learn something new here each day ... Canada is new, people there are all new too, there is nothing you can learn, nobody can teach you anything worthy of it and so the identity is lost ... here, I can learn from Germans many new idea's, values and such .. and I was like " wow ... hmmmm ... there is something in it ..." ...

And he is now glad his children are not in Canada to go to school and learn nothing but to show off with their degree's, cars, big homes, possessions, but rather stay at an apartment, go to an average school, make some school trips to Madrid, Vienna, Berlin, Amsterdam etc and learn something, see something, make friends from different places and see the differences and work together to improve each other's lifestyles ... even it is very hard now, but something in it what he told me.

And .. yes, this spoiled brat here, couldn't learn anything there ... I was the one who was teaching things and I was outnumbered and it wasn't funny to see people who each tries to oppose his / her own culture on the other and feel superior to the other one ...

Like my last experience while there ... a friend who had moved to a beautiful villa in an upscale neighborhood of Toronto, driving a Lexus ... was complaining that his son is being laughed at and bullied at school by other kids, mainly neighbors for they all have BMW's and I don't which ever Infinity or Mercedes and so when I mentioned " oh what a lovely comfy car" he said no .. we are going to sell it and buy a BMW ... what??? I was like ... teach your child to stand up and tell the other kids they are stupid ... don't play upon it ... ah well .. try to do this in Germany, the Netherlands or Denmark and people will absolutely take a distant from YOU as parent and not from the child and the child will be avoided by other children because nobody cares what do you drive or what house do you have...

These were the things I saw ... in many occasions I was immediately asked by people while there, " oh what brand shoes are you wearing?"... while here nobody cares ... as long as you are neat and clean and have a personality, or just mind your own business and live your own life ...

or I remember my last trip in Toronto ... sitting at a cafe having lunch on the outside ..good weather .. many young couples with their friends in their fancy schmancy attire and purses with their cars bla bla bla ... all talking at loud, showing off, what they do, who they know, oh that person is that, is doing this, is so famous, bla bla bla .. so utterly childish ... and my friends had to at one point make some gestures to tell a couple with their friends near our table that " No, she is European, works there and do that and such ..." show off and I felt like a Status Symbol .. like whatever...

On another occasion, going out with my Asian friends .. they came to pick me up in a CHIC Mercedes ... we went to 360 up CN tower and they all had to say Oh our friend from Europe is here ... so annoying ... come on .. who cares .. live your life ... get what you want and talk about good stuff ...

and then I am there again, sitting, listening to their stories .. how hard they work, that it is all one big huge facade ... glittering facade ..

But good news too, there are the more normal people too... an Indian couple I know ... (oh btw, they are moving back to India ... the husband has set up a Real Estate firm, lessons learnt from Canada and is now making a decent living and is far happier than being in Toronto) and they were just so sweet ... these days I see their happy faces in more relaxed atmosphere in their beautiful Sari's and such attending weddings, going out and such ... and I am invited too ..

(good thing about Canada, you can make friends and if you can afford accepting each and every invitation to meet hem in their hometown .. wow .. it will be fun) ...

But don't get me in anyway wrong ...

Canada is a great country, it is a happy place too, there are good and bad people, there are good and bad choices to make too, there are plenty or none opportunities too, it is all depending on your own attitude ... what you want ...what you really can afford or how do you/ can you, live????

Make your friends with care ... network, but in a proper way, ... recognize talent, recognize connections, avoid the negative minded people ... You d be all too busy to make the ends meet already and find your way, so avoid those who will only help you think negative and down ... the more fun people the happier you would be to handle it all with a better mood when you stand up in the morning and if you can go to a interview, you can shine ...

Also, work on role play ... it is a common thing in Canada to role play at certain job interviews and ... do not exclude any opportunity to do a job that you might have never considered doing in your back home .. example: you are an accountant with a few degree's in India? ... you can work at BestBuy as sales person???

well do it ... use your talents and intelligence to do a great job at the interview .. not only you would learn a whole new aspect of life, but also new people, new mentalities, new faces and in time, you can climb up... and who knows, you will land on the right place for you...

Do not exclude anything .. don 't be blind .. be open ... be positive and be good to yourself ...

That all being said ... knowing some skills come in handy indeed like with Jin. ... I had the impression that there are already too many high educated people in Canada chasing after the same job while there were plenty of other jobs available. So be aware of that. Competition is high ... 260.000 new immigrants each year .. go figure .. you must be an athlete in anyway possible to handle that ...

And to those critisizing me ..I did a good job, I landed a quite a few very good one and if I just had given myself a bit more time and patience, you bet I would now be running my own firm there too .. but no thanks, I had seen and done enough .. to each his own ..

Merry Christmas to you all ...