My Citizenship Application is Rejected - Please Don't Repeat My Mistake

[links18]

To be clear: even CBSA is NOT tracking travel.

The fact that certain information is captured (collected) relative to particular events (like POE examination upon entry), stored, and accessible, does not rise anywhere near to the level tracking travel.

I think many people would call that "tracking travel."

 

[ar_fabrics]

To be honest I heard first time about this that they have exit record by third agency & CIC agent call about rejection & application separation .PNR information already recorded by airline agencies but CIC cannot take this without your consent as per Canadian privacy Act.Regards

 

[links18]

To be honest I heard first time about this that they have exit record by third agency & CIC agent call about rejection & application separation .PNR information already recorded by airline agencies but CIC cannot take this without your consent as per Canadian privacy Act.Regards

PNR involves no independent verification of departure by CBSA officer?

 

[dpenabill]

I think many people would call that "tracking travel."

The reason why I so emphatically highlight the distinction is the information captured really is just a snapshot, and while inferences can be made from snapshots of data, and will be made, that is a long, long way short of tracking . . . the gaps between the snapshots are typically huge, for much longer periods of time during which the government is NOT capturing any individual data (again, except in certain law enforcement related contexts, not at all connected to the vast majority of us).

From the government's perception, it is clearly not tracking individual travel.

The implications are important. Tracking suggests the government captures and retains complete information as to when an individual is in Canada or not. That is not what happens. All the government captures and retains is specified information when a traveler is examined at a POE and presents identification or Travel Document connected to the traveler's UCI, there, on that occasion, limited to that information (and if the traveler uses alternative forms of identification or Travel Documents not connected to the individual's Canadian UCI, the information is not captured relative to that individual's records in the system). To some extent (though far short of being fully implemented -- this is one of the topics of discussion during Trudeau's visit to the U.S. today) the Canadian government has access to similar information captured and retained by U.S. authorities. To date, both the scope of that data and access to it is limited, so it is far from complete insofar as the Canadian government can obtain this information (last reports I've seen suggest that IRCC is still relying on individual applicants to personally obtain their records from the U.S. and submit those, if that information is being sought).

To a very, very large extent, the data captured is dependent on traveler/client cooperation. This is mandated by law. Yes, of course. But anyone driving the 401 between Toronto and Montreal has a clear view of the extent to which people voluntarily comply with the law -- for huge numbers, it is a matter of what they can get away with. I am confident that the vast majority of travelers comply with border crossing legalities far more than Canadian drivers obey the speed limit, but it is nonetheless a matter of degree. Look at conversations in discussions about Permanent Residents and the extent to which, in the past, it was simply accepted that PRs with visa-exempt passports did not need to present either a PR card or PR TD when boarding flights to Canada . . . because the rule was not enforced.

You are undoubtedly right, many do consider the border control collection of entry data as tracking travel. But it most definitely is NOT, and thus when PRs are dealing with issues related to accounting for their time in Canada versus their time outside Canada, whether for the PR RO or related to citizenship qualification, it is important to be aware of this, to be aware that only one person in the world truly has definitive access to and the capacity to track all travel, and that is the traveler himself or herself. All IRCC will do is look for anomalies, incongruities, inconsistencies, discrepancies, or omissions in what the PR reports. IRCC will not make an effort to reconstruct an applicant's travel history except to the extent doing so identifies contrary information, and is then sufficient to show the applicant's information is in error, not reliable.

Thus, while I join many others in encouraging prospective applicants to have a margin over the minimum presence required before applying, it is important to recognize that if IRCC identifies a large discrepancy it will not simply deduct days it identifies the applicant to have been abroad and recalculate the presence. It will question, or even contest, the applicant's declaration as a whole, based on it being in error in significant part. What this means is that the applicant with a margin of more than a hundred additional days will NOT be OK just because IRCC only spots a discrepancy for twenty or so days. IRCC will not simply deduct the spotted twenty days, leaving the applicant with a margin of 80 over the minimum still. Rather, IRCC will require (unless it accepts the applicant's explanation and concludes it was both an innocent mistake and the only discrepancy) the applicant to affirmatively prove actual presence for all the time declared (typically including those declared above the margin by the way).

This is closely tied to recognizing that while the declared dates of travel are critical, if IRCC has reason to doubt those are not complete or accurate, the applicant can be (and if referred to a CJ will be) required to prove all presence, to document being in Canada all the days between reported dates of entry and next exit. This is precisely because the government is not tracking travel, so when the applicant's declarations as to travel are in doubt, all presence is in doubt.

For the vast majority of applicants, the government has no reason to doubt the completeness or accuracy of the declared dates. It is easy, then, to infer the applicant was in Canada between reported dates of entry and next exit. Path to citizenship is relatively short (albeit still long compared to what is reported in some other countries) and smooth. When the government sees reason to not rely on the applicant's declared dates that inference goes out the window. Since there is no government tracking of a PR's travel, that leaves the PR/applicant on his or her own to prove presence. Those who fail to be aware of this are among some of the more vociferous complainants about the process. That is, for prospective applicants it is important to recognize that the government is not tracking travel, and thus it is absolutely imperative that the applicant declare ALL travel accurately and be prepared to prove presence in-between dates of travel. Those who follow this rather simple formula have way, way lower risks of problems in the process.

 

[AbdulIBX]

Hello again

The conclusion we made with my wife is, that most probably they have different authorisation to access to the Exits and Entries pool of data for those who have traveled by Air. Both times (at the interview and during the call) they said that, from June 2015 they have access to that additional pool of data.
It also looks like they have the full travel data from the Airports, because at the interview day , he asked if all out travels to international destinations were only from Airports because they can pool out all the data for verification for travels made by Air.

When we are coming in Canada, PRs and Citizens have to use the Automatic Machines. The machine is the one who makes the entry data, not the CBSA officer. They don't even stamp entry stamps anymore. Everything is on the machines.
There is some method (machine collectable or direct link for data recording) for our Exits too.

The Exits are most probably collected at the time when the boarding pass is confirmed or when the flight is over and the airplane company leaves an confirmation that the passenger was on board of the Exit flight.
It looks like there are different streamlines
One for those who applied before June 2015 - No access from CIC to that extra pool of data.
Second for those who applied after June 2015 - Access only to the full travel history made by Air.

Most probably now there are again two streams
One for those with Air travels only - Easy cases
Second for those who have used cars, trains and boats somewhere in their travel history - A little bit complicated cases.

Regards
Abdul

 

[AbdulIBX]

Hello Again

My wife's electronic website file from today has a new line that she has to attend her Oath on April 4th. Her journey is almost over.
Now I have to start preparing my application again, but this time I have to be absolutely concentrated and accurate about my Exits and Entries travels declaration if I don't want to end up in the same situation.

Apparently after June (2015)CIC processing centres have more information branches and they are internally operating in a different way, probably because now they look for physical presence, not residency anymore.

Again for those with travels by Air, keep in mind that somehow internally they have access to our Exits and Entries by Air. Be very careful when you calculate your days.

Regards
Abdul

 

[links18]

Hello Again

My wife's electronic website file from today has a new line that she has to attend her Oath on April 4th. Her journey is almost over.
Now I have to start preparing my application again, but this time I have to be absolutely concentrated and accurate about my Exits and Entries travels declaration if I don't want to end up in the same situation.

Apparently after June (2015)CIC processing centres have more information branches and they are internally operating in a different way, probably because now they look for physical presence, not residency anymore.

Again for those with travels by Air, keep in mind that somehow internally they have access to our Exits and Entries by Air. Be very careful when you calculate your days.

Regards
Abdul

Given there is no longer any basic residency to fall back on even in good faith error cases like yours, one needs to either make absolutely sure declared absences match the information IRCC/CIC has (of course, what that is exactly is anyone's guess these days) or give oneself one heck of a cushion.

 

[Canadiandesi2006]

Hello again

The conclusion we made with my wife is, that most probably they have different authorisation to access to the Exits and Entries pool of data for those who have traveled by Air. Both times (at the interview and during the call) they said that, from June 2015 they have access to that additional pool of data.
It also looks like they have the full travel data from the Airports, because at the interview day , he asked if all out travels to international destinations were only from Airports because they can pool out all the data for verification for travels made by Air.

When we are coming in Canada, PRs and Citizens have to use the Automatic Machines. The machine is the one who makes the entry data, not the CBSA officer. They don't even stamp entry stamps anymore. Everything is on the machines.
There is some method (machine collectable or direct link for data recording) for our Exits too.

The Exits are most probably collected at the time when the boarding pass is confirmed or when the flight is over and the airplane company leaves an confirmation that the passenger was on board of the Exit flight.
It looks like there are different streamlines
One for those who applied before June 2015 - No access from CIC to that extra pool of data.
Second for those who applied after June 2015 - Access only to the full travel history made by Air.

Most probably now there are again two streams
One for those with Air travels only - Easy cases
Second for those who have used cars, trains and boats somewhere in their travel history - A little bit complicated cases.

Regards
Abdul

Probably you get the CBSA's and if you had traveled to USA from FOIA, all your travel records, match with the stamps on your passport.
If its not on your passport, just declare the days away from Canada (Attached copies)

If possible wait few months extra than required minimum days when you apply next time.

Wish you all the best.

 

[canadasucks]

Hello again

We checked with my wife our archive of boarding passes and the exit date quoted from the processing agent was correct. On May 11th 2012 (almost 4 years ago) I was traveling to Jamaica for a short trip.
The processing agent said that he had requested our travels history twice and both times the report clearly showed Exit date May 11th. During the call he mentioned that they are using post June (2015) the database of another independent agency in addition with CBSA reports to verify our Entries and Exits made by Air.

I remember that on the day of our interview the interviewer asked us do we have any other international travels made by car, boat or train. We responded that all traveling we made was on International flights. After that he said if all out travels were by Air they can check now all the Exits and Entries which we made for the last 6 years.

He mentioned that now they have access to that extra pool of data due to their information sharing branches since now they are determining if the person have been indeed physically here for the required number of dates.
He was describing that independent agency as part of their Information Sharing Branches Network, but he didn't say the name of it, only that post June (2015) they have access to their database.

Our best guess is that it has direct relation to the airplane companies ( Information related to confirmed flights or confirmed boarding passes, it seems something in direct relation with the data collected on the airports on our international flights)


So with that correction and recalculation from the agent on my physical days he said that we have to split our application, because I am not eligible with that application for citizenship. He said that now he see that I have more than enough days in Canada to apply again, so he recommended to us to withdraw my application in order to let my wife take the Oath soon. It was a fair and good deal.

Regards
Abdul

Hi Abdul, I find it's hard to believe they said they have all Exits made by Air. Are the exits to US? From my research, currently CBSA have no way to collect Exits to non-US destinations. It's a future project to achieve so.

From this: http://news.gc.ca/web/article-en.do?nid=1085459
Today, the Government of Canada collects biographic information on travellers entering the country, but has no reliable way of knowing when and where travellers leave the country.
Once this legislation is passed, Canada will now know when and where someone enters the country, and when and where they leave the country.
“Entry/exit information is a key part of a traveller’s history that will help to make more informed decisions, improve program integrity and reduce fraud. For example, through these changes our officials would have more information available to accurately verify residency across multiple lines of business.”
– Hon. John McCallum, Minister for Immigration, Refugees and Citizenship

 

[mickey_mouse]

I am going to apply citizenship soon, however i ordered my cbsa report and found out that one entry is missing in that report.

I landed in Canada in Oct 2012,

1) I then went to india in Jan 2014 and came back to Canada in Feb 2014 (This entry is missing )

2) I then went to india in dec 2015 and came back to Canada in feb 2016. Since then I am in Canada.


Can any one comment if this is going to affect my citizenship application and is there any way i can correct this. Surprisingly on both above occasions my passport is not stamped in Canada , no canadian entry / exit stamps and only indian entry/exit stamps

Any help is appreciated. Thanks