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Missing stamp on entry to Canada resulted in a RQ

baz

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Sep 26, 2009
26
1
Hi

Again everyone, thank you for answering this. eileenf abd CanV, thanks to both of you for wealth of knowledge. Again, I really appreciate it.

eileenf, I would like to reply to some of your statements.

Stable employment is good evidence of residency. But paying a lot of taxes and making a lot of money doesn't buy you any extra consideration from a citizenship judge. You qualify for citizenship based on your time here, not your taxes here.
Agreed!

You made an error in calculating your residency days. And you signed the form swearing that your declarations and calculations were accurate.
Regardless of what CIC says this is, I still don't think it is an error. An error (in my mind) would have been to not declare the trip because I missed the stamp in my passport. Calculating my absences, I did what CIC instructions told me to do, which was to use my passport as my primary means of calculating my absences. I signed the form swearing that the declarations were true, and I did this in good faith and to the best of knowledge at that time. Now I know I can rant and rave all I want: What I want, and what CIC does are two different things.

your credibility will be higher if you acknowledge your error rather than blaming CBSA and CIC.
Totally agreed! Not once in my RQ explanation did I ever insinuate that CIC and CBSA were incorrect. I know how to play the game: Even though I feel very angry at this situation, I said the following to CIC (quoting from my RQ explanation):

"...on entry to Canada at Pearson Airport, my passport was not stamped by CBSA. I therefore forgot about this trip and hence left it out on my original citizenship application. I would like to apologize for this oversight, it was an honest mistake."

Some applicants mistakenly prioritize consistency over honesty ("CBSA missed a trip, so I can't declare it or I'll have trouble.") This tends to backfire.
This is not really relevant to me. But I get where you are coming from.

Frankly, I wouldn't waste time arguing that your plane landed at 11:58pm, as this hinges on a technicality that is beyond both of our legal expertise (are you in the country yet if you haven't been officially admitted to the country? Maybe not.) and doesn't get you above 1095 days. But if you do, I would urge you to find better evidence than a plane ticket, again, as this undermines your reliability since planes don't exactly always land on time.
It doesn't matter actually: 2 days short or 4 days short, they are one in the same thing really!

Regarding how to go forward, you are depending on luck in getting to a CJ in a timely manner, having them choose the "Koo test" rather than the actual physical presence test, and no CIC appeal. That's a lot of luck. Anyone telling you that it's easy either doesn't understand or has been very lucky themselves.
Well, I am actually hoping it won't go to a CJ. Honestly (and I really don't care about a strict interpretation of the rules), if CIC can't see this as an honest mistake, then I don't think this is a very nice country to deal with. What's more, the writing is on the table: They don't want me here!
 

sjakub

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Sep 28, 2010
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baz said:
  • I was challenged on a trip I did not declare. This came as a shock to me, the reason for non-declaration was due to CBSA not stamping my passport on entry to Canada at Pearson airport

The result is that I got an RQ. I answered the RQ in detail, and very diligently. But the fact remains that because of item 1 listed above, I am about two days below the required residency (it could even be four days below, I argued that even though I crossed the border after midnight, my plane landed in Canada before midnight).

What now? Will I be flat denied? It was an honest mistake, and if I the passport was stamped, I surely would have declared it. Moreover, it was only for three days, and it was 16 months prior to applying for citizenship.
First of all, the title is misleading. You didn't get an RQ because there was a missing stamp in your passport.
You got an RQ because, stamp or not, you failed to declare one of your trips.
It's up to you to keep track of that, and not rely on the stamps in your passport.

The unemployment is kind of a separate issue, but the fact is, you applied without having sufficient number of days in Canada.
Your case probably will go in front of the judge (which can take forever), but in the end you were not eligible to apply when you did.
There is another topic here somewhere about similar case, and I think in the end, after years of processing, the application was denied.

Also, the argument about plane landing at specific time won't get you anywhere.
It's the time at which you cross the border into Canada that matters.
In the other direction, while leaving Canada by plane, even if the plane actually takes
off after midnight when it was scheduled to take off before the midnight,
it still is the earlier day that counts and not the date of the actual take off.
At least according to several posts here...

In either case, you could be better off withdrawing your application and re-applying once
you actually meet the requirements. Given faster processing of the new applications,
it could result in you getting the citizenship sooner.

EDIT: On the other hand, if you are not eligible now, there should be no harm in waiting to see what happens, at least until you become eligible again.
 

baz

Full Member
Sep 26, 2009
26
1
Hi sjakub

Your advice is very wise. I am only eligible again Nov 30 this year (2015). I am certainly not going to make the same mistake and if I decide to resubmit, then I will give myself at least thirty extra days. BTW, I think you are incorrect about the unemployment. You see, when I was at the interview, the citizenship officer saw I was very dispirited, and she changed her attitude (initially, it was very confrontational): She told me that she must give me a RQ due to my unemployment, and that if she did not give it to me, then she could potentially get reprimanded by her manager. She also told me (weirdly enough) that it will not take longer to be invited to the oath with the RQ (the only thing I can think she meant by this is that they are expediting the RQs).

So my plan is this: I am going to wait until Jan next year (that will be two months after I am eligible). If I still have not heard anything, then I am going to cancel the application and go for another one.

Now, I totally know that this is considered my fault. But not once was I told to keep a detailed log of all my trips. The instructions (when I applied for citizenship) stated that I must use my passport as my main source of information for my absences and I was discouraged from getting my entries and exits from CBSA (the form says it will delay your application). Honestly, if this is considered my fault, then okay, but for all it's worth (which may not be that much), CIC should fire the person who made those instructions. Talk about being obtuse! And yes, my first language (and mother tongue) is English. So I feel very sorry for persons who do not have this advantage.
 

adzees

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baz said:
Hi sjakub

Your advice is very wise. I am only eligible again Nov 30 this year (2015). I am certainly not going to make the same mistake and if I decide to resubmit, then I will give myself at least thirty extra days. BTW, I think you are incorrect about the unemployment. You see, when I was at the interview, the citizenship officer saw I was very dispirited, and she changed her attitude (initially, it was very confrontational): She told me that she must give me a RQ due to my unemployment, and that if she did not give it to me, then she could potentially get reprimanded by her manager. She also told me (weirdly enough) that it will not take longer to be invited to the oath with the RQ (the only thing I can think she meant by this is that they are expediting the RQs).

So my plan is this: I am going to wait until Jan next year (that will be two months after I am eligible). If I still have not heard anything, then I am going to cancel the application and go for another one.

Now, I totally know that this is considered my fault. But not once was I told to keep a detailed log of all my trips. The instructions (when I applied for citizenship) stated that I must use my passport as my main source of information for my absences and I was discouraged from getting my entries and exits from CBSA (the form says it will delay your application). Honestly, if this is considered my fault, then okay, but for all it's worth (which may not be that much), CIC should fire the person who made those instructions. Talk about being obtuse! And yes, my first language (and mother tongue) is English. So I feel very sorry for persons who do not have this advantage.
You may want to seriously reconsider withdrawing the application and re-applying, but my sense is that it is still important, first, to submit an appropriate response to the RQ (if you haven't already done so), a response which in particular completely and accurately declares all travel outside Canada during the relevant four years. You want to make a concerted effort to show that you are being truthful, and at least indirectly suggesting that any omission in your application was an oversight or misunderstanding. You want to be on the record for giving complete and accurate information before you withdraw the application. To set the record straight so-to-say.


There is no rush to withdraw the application, even if you decide that is the best course to follow. (I suspect it is, but that is a decision for you to make based on your best judgment.)

Some may suggest withdrawing without responding to RQ.

Others may emphasize that even if you withdraw you will most likely encounter RQ again when you re-apply.

Not all RQs are created equal. The extent of delay encountered will vary considerably and a big factor in this is tied to what kinds of questions are at stake, what the issues are. RQ for a shortfall or for an omission of travel dates in the Residency Calculation, let alone for both, is likely to lead to a longer, much longer, processing timeline and increased risk for referral to a CJ for a hearing, which really delays things. RQ because the applicant has previously applied and withdrawn an application, in contrast, can be fairly perfunctory if in the new application any questions are easily resolved and if, in particular, any problem in the earlier application is resolved . . . hence my suggestion to go ahead and respond to the RQ even if you plan to withdraw, so that at the least the record is clear and your submission is accurate.


Good Luck
 

baz

Full Member
Sep 26, 2009
26
1
Hi adzees

Well, I am actually going to wait at least five months before I withdraw and resubmit. I have already sent my RQ off (I sent it off on the 19th Aug). My hope is that they are going to somehow make contact with me in that period and give me some sort of answer. If not, I will probably resubmit.
 

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baz said:
The instructions (when I applied for citizenship) stated that I must use my passport as my main source of information for my absences
CIC needs to amend this instruction because in this day and age, there are so many instances of where the passport is missing stamps. I was missing a ton because when I traveled to the USA by plane from Pearson, US CBP would just stamp my boarding pass. And then when I got NEXUS, I would not get any stamps at all from either side. Also, when I did get stamps before, I had many cases where the officer would stamp on top of existing stamps, which made it impossible to make out the dates on them. Passports are a poor proof now. What saved my butt was I kept a spreadsheet which had all my entries and exits and I updated it immediately after each trip.
 

baz

Full Member
Sep 26, 2009
26
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CIC needs to amend this instruction because in this day and age, there are so many instances of where the passport is missing stamps. I was missing a ton because when I traveled to the USA by plane from Pearson, US CBP would just stamp my boarding pass. And then when I got NEXUS, I would not get any stamps at all from either side. Also, when I did get stamps before, I had many cases where the officer would stamp on top of existing stamps, which made it impossible to make out the dates on them. Passports are a poor proof now. What saved my butt was I kept a spreadsheet which had all my entries and exits and I updated it immediately after each trip.
Right on brother! I understand when people say: "It's your responsibility to keep track of things". Fair enough. But then don't print totally incorrect instructions and discourage people from getting their CBSA reports. Honestly, whoever decided to mention "Use your passport as your main source of information for absences" should be fired. Not only has it caused lots of pain and suffering to applicants, but I am sure CIC has had way more work to do with RQ's and citizenship judges.
 

sjakub

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baz said:
"Use your passport as your main source of information for absences"
Do you understand what the word "main" means? It's not the same as "only".
 

baz

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Sep 26, 2009
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Do you understand what the word "main" means? It's not the same as "only".
sjakub, please keep it polite. English is my first language, I understand what the words main mean. But the actual words did not even say "main", I don't know what it said because CIC has taken the site down when it posted new rules. For your information, I did not only use my passport for declaring absences, I used many other sources.
 

keesio

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baz said:
Right on brother! I understand when people say: "It's your responsibility to keep track of things". Fair enough. But then don't print totally incorrect instructions and discourage people from getting their CBSA reports. Honestly, whoever decided to mention "Use your passport as your main source of information for absences" should be fired. Not only has it caused lots of pain and suffering to applicants, but I am sure CIC has had way more work to do with RQ's and citizenship judges.
Yup 100% agreed! CIC has so many instructions that can be so confusing and sometimes misleading that it is no surprise that people get led down the wrong path. You'd figure CIC would want to make it easy on not just applicants, but also themselves by having clear instructions....
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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There are a lot of accurate and informative observations already posted in response to the OP's situation and initial queries. (While I might quibble with some of the observations, overall most are responsive, accurate, and informative.)

For emphasis, the posts by eileenf and sjakub are worth paying particular attention to . . . much of which, respectively, has been said by others here as well (such as to forget the plane landing before midnight issue), but the posts by eileenf and sjakub combine and aptly state the most important observations.




My Observations (as I am wont to do, once again I am making a very long post):

It is simply not true that CIC instructed applicants to use their passports as the main source of information regarding absences.

I acknowledge that much of the information provided by CIC is flawed in one regard or another, that in particular there has been a blatant failure to give instructions which adequately inform CIC clients (PRs and such), particularly as to some critical aspects of residency under the old law. Confusion is common. A lot of the confusion is CIC's fault.

There never was, however, any confusion in the instructions regarding reporting travel abroad: the applicant for citizenship was clearly instructed to accurately declare his or her travel abroad. (Exception: pre-June 11 applicants did not need to declare U.S. trips if the return to Canada was the same day, unless issued RQ.)

Assertions to the contrary are simply wrong. I say this understanding baz and some others may continue to dispute this . . . but again CIC's instructions have always made it clear that the applicant is obligated to fully and accurately declare all travel (with day-trip exception). CIC's online instructions, and CIC's instructions in the "Guide," and the online residency calculator instructions in particular, do not and have not (in at least more than a decade) offered suggestions about how the applicant acquires this information, let alone state that the passport is the "main source" for applicants. Rather, all these reiterated it was the applicant's obligation to report all travel.

It is possible that a CIC call centre representative said something along the lines baz asserts was an instruction. It is quite likely this instruction has been oft stated by a range of other people, from consultants to volunteers at a settlement centre, to online forum participants (including some here), among others. There are many sources this may have come from, but it did not come from CIC's instructions.

It is also true that in collateral sources (such as Federal Court decisions, internal memos at CIC, and perhaps even CIC FAQs about the documents check interview), CIC has stated or is cited as stating something similar (similar but different in important respects): that in the process of verifying residency, CIC relies on the applicant's passport(s) as their main source of information regarding absences . . . but this is about verifying absences, about what CIC does . . . not about what sources applicants should use or rely upon.

To be clear, the main source of information about an applicant's travel, even for CIC, has long been the applicant's residency declaration. The instructions have long made it clear the applicant is obligated to declare all travel in the relevant time period (with the previously noted day-trip exception, which is no longer an exception as day-trips too must now be declared). CIC's assessment of residency has long begun with the residency calculation declarations submitted by the applicant. CIC only goes to the passport in the verification stage of assessing the applicant's qualifications (at interview and in assessing response to RQ). And for several years now, going back to 2012, CIC has actually relied more on the CBSA travel history as a primary source for verification purposes, which is consulted by CIC in conjunction with reviewing the applicant's travel documents (which are typically the applicant's passport or passports).

It warrants remembering, moreover, all PRs are subject to the PR Residency Obligation, and are thus on notice from day one that they may need to account for all days they are in Canada, or out of Canada. The burden of proving compliance has always been on the PR. There should be NO surprise that a PR is expected to accurately account for dates of travel outside Canada.





How It Will Go For the OP's Application:

It is worth noting that how it will go for this application, for the OP, is a big unknown. No one here can reliably predict the outcome. It appears to clearly be a shortfall case now. That's a problem. It appears to be a case involving discrepancies of significant concern to CIC. That might be a problem, depending on the nature and extent of the discrepancies, and other factors. It appears to be a case in which CIC might have concerns, even overt doubts, about the applicant's residency during an extended period of self-employment. Regarding the period of unemployment, depending on the overall impression the Citizenship Officer has of the applicant, and the applicant's credibility in particular, this may or may not be a serious issue and problem . . . a lot depends of course on the extent to which the response to RQ sufficiently documented place of abode, activity, presence, other indications of living in Canada, for that period of time . . . and, of course, on CIC's perception of the OP's credibility.

In this regard, in how this is likely to go, there is an aspect of some earlier observations I do quibble with, and that has to do with the role of luck; luck has very little to do with how these things go. Yes, luck can play a role in a close call case, but few cases are really a close call. All the facts and circumstances of the case, how the applicant responded to the RQ, what evidence the applicant submitted to support and corroborate the applicant's account of the facts, and especially the standing of the applicant's credibility with CIC, will be far more influential than luck in determining whether it is a close call case and how it goes.

Thus, let me be clear about the real issue in this particular case, in the OP's case, about what really matters. It is not about whether the OP was actually present 1095 or 1093 or 1091 days during the relevant time period. An APP shortfall by two or four days may very well become the specific factual finding which is cited in denying the application, but in practical terms that is not what is going to determine the outcome of the application.

Indeed, as suggested by CanV, sirine1, adzees, and ashirale, if CIC concludes the OP made a simple, minor mistake (or two) but was nonetheless actually present for at least 1091 days, and CIC has little or no doubt about the OP's credibility, no doubts about the genuineness of the OP's application and account of the facts, the odds are GOOD that a Citizenship Officer will approve the application and the next thing that happens is the oath is scheduled. (Notwithstanding a two or four day shortfall.)

So what really matters, for this specific case, is whether or not CIC (as decided by the responsible Citizenship Officer) believes the OP and is satisfied the OP otherwise reported all absences and otherwise had a life well-established in Canada.

Again, no one can reliably predict how this will go. There are so many factors which can influence the view CIC takes, even as to the applicant's credibility alone, it is impossible to do more than highlight some factors which might make the difference. Obviously, though, some factors loom larger than others, and the nature and extent of identified discrepancies are factors which loom rather large in this.




Self-favouring interpretations; analysis:

What follows is more for illustrative purposes than it is about the OP's case; this is about the more general, and extremely common mistake, the mistake of approaching this process without stepping back and being objective, without examining things from the perspective of a total stranger. There are aspects of the OP's report which illustrate this mistake particularly well.

I acknowledge that aspects of CIC's information and instructions contribute to this problem. This has been particularly so relative to the residency requirement under the pre-June 11 requirements, CIC failing to communicate the importance of the applicant's burden to show the applicant was actually physically present at least 1095 days, to show this with, in effect, no doubts about it.

But, the number of PRs who wander into the morass more or less willfully blind is huge. Many, perhaps most, appear to be qualified, and among those who might not be qualified, many could have saved themselves aggravation, if not grief, by just waiting another month to apply.

At the risk of being overly repetitive, here are some particular quotes from the OP's situation which, I think, illustrate this:

baz said:
[as quoted below]. . .
:

". . . I argued that even though I crossed the border after midnight, my plane landed in Canada before midnight"

baz said:
[as quoted below]. . .
"The instructions at the time specifically said to use your passport as your main source of information for declaring your trips, and this is what I did."

" . . . all the [trips other than the one not declared] having stamps in my passport on entry to Canada."

" . . . let me elaborate why I claim I was two days short instead of four days short. On two occasions, my airplane landed in Canada before midnight. However, I passed through CBSA after midnight. I have airplane tickets to to prove this."

"The reason why I am a little angry is that I suspected that something like this could happen, and I wanted to get the CBSA reports before I submitted. Only, the form discourages this. It says in bold: 'Do not request the CBSA reports, rather give us permission to do this on your behalf'."


baz said:
[as quoted below]. . .
" . . . For your information, I did not only use my passport for declaring absences, I used many other sources."
(emphasis added))


It should be easy to see where this is going:

-- Relied on the passport for information about absences . . . except not really, actually used "many other sources."

-- Reliance on passport because of CIC's instruction . . . except for knowing enough otherwise to apprehend possibility of omitting a trip, and aware of the inadequacy of relying on the passport to the point of wanting to obtain a CBSA report.

-- Reliance on passport as the main source of information . . . except recognition of the importance of the CBSA travel history and giving CIC authorization to access that information directly.

-- Reliance on passport as the main source of information . . . except on two occasions declared return to Canada day before passport stamp, the declaration based on plane landing prior to midnight.

I am afraid this appears to be more in the vein of a lawyer engaging in cross-examination, focusing on picayune details. However, I do not mean to put so much emphasis on any of these details or these observations, nor even on them in total.

I am trying to focus on why applicants make these kinds of mistakes. These are easy to make. They are, however, also easy to avoid.

These mistakes are generally rooted in looking at things from a what-is-favourable-to-the-applicant perspective. That perspective is generally consistent with how CIC personnel see routine cases in which there are no omissions, no discrepancies, no gaps, no circumstances indicating a-reason-to-question-residency. But once something triggers a concern or question, CIC is no longer looking at the facts or circumstances to find what supports the applicant's case. CIC will no longer be looking at things from a what-is-favourable-to-the-applicant perspective. CIC will be looking for inconsistencies, discrepancies, gaps, incongruities, anomalies. Everyone who applies is at risk for this happening (this is one of those aspects which can be affected by luck, as in who ends up under the microscope, so to say).

Way, way better to go into the process covering all the bases from a potentially skeptical perspective, aware of how a total stranger bureaucrat might see things and react to them. Not easy to take off the self-favouring glasses and see things through a more critical view, but anyone dealing with any bureaucracy is typically better off taking this approach . . . let alone dealing with a massive bureaucracy like CIC.

For example, it is readily apparent a stranger bureaucrat is going to notice a reported date of return a day earlier than the passport stamp (and/or corresponding CBSA record in travel history) and count that as a discrepancy. The applicant who wants to argue he or she is entitled to an additional day, based on when the plane's wheels touched tarmac in Canada, is picking a fight with very, very little to gain. Clue: picking a fight with a bureaucracy rarely goes in any direction other than not-good, and picking a fight with little or nothing to gain is downright stupid. (I hope no one attempts to argue that declaring the date based on the plane landing before midnight was intended to be more precisely accurate . . . that will not fly.)

For another example, those PRs who figured out early that they should keep precise logs or a journal or other form of records for their travels, usually also recognized the importance of the actual date of exit and date of entry. For those who did not figure this out early, and were left scrambling later to reconstruct their travel history, there was nonetheless no doubt: residency was mostly, if not entirely, dependent on days present in Canada versus days absent from Canada. An actual, accurate accounting of absences is critical. Whatever instructions are referenced, the overall message in the instructions was clear: report all travel, report all absences.

Reconstructing a complex history involving frequent travel and without contemporaneously made records is, of course, difficult. It is usually easy to recall more significant or out-of-the-ordinary trips, like a trip abroad to interview with a prospective employer or to visit a seriously ill family member, but individuals who travel often but without keeping a record of their travel are definitely at a serious disadvantage. Reconstructing a history of frequent travel without complete records is simply a nightmare. But frequent travelers, at least those who give any consideration at all to the task CIC has in verifying the qualifications of those applying for citizenship, should readily recognize that accurate and complete records for them are particularly important: frequent travel is evidence of continuing ties abroad, and having continuing ties abroad is a rather obvious reason why CIC might further scrutinize an applicant's residency.

Regarding the prospective applicant who discovers late that it was important to record dates of travel, and who (for whatever reason, but especially if there was frequent travel or other indications of continuing ties outside Canada) realizes he or she is having difficulty reconstructing the dates of travel, it warrants remembering the burden of proof is on the applicant AND odds are now high that unreported trips or errors will be noticed by CIC. No advanced degrees in engineering or formal logic are necessary for someone in that position to recognize the potential problems in making an application containing omissions or errors. No aptitude for rocket science or expertise in political science is necessary for such an individual to be aware how important it is to get the information right before applying, which for some PRs means not applying until they do get it right. The prospective applicant always has the prerogative to wait longer before applying (for reference, I waited well more than a year beyond the date I passed the 1095 day APP threshold . . . acknowledging I had personal reasons for doing so).

All these observations come back to a common thread: recognizing that the primary responsibility for establishing the facts, the full and complete and accurate facts, belongs to the applicant, and considering what is involved in CIC's task to verify qualification for citizenship. That is, trying to look at things through other than one's own prism, trying to see what may be necessary to prove the case to a stranger.

There is a widespread impression that PRs are entitled to the grant of citizenship once they meet the statutorily prescribed qualifications . . . but this view often overlooks the overriding importance of the procedural requirements: the applicant must make the application establishing qualifications for citizenship, remain qualified for citizenship while the application is pending, prove qualification if requested to do so, and affirmatively take the oath. No matter how long the PR lived in Canada, how thoroughly settled in Canada, a failure to meet any of these procedural requirements precludes the grant of citizenship.

Many of those denied citizenship were not denied because they were not qualified. They were denied because they failed to prove they were qualified. The Federal Court decisions are full of such cases. Many of them may have, in fact, met the qualifications . . . except that most important one, the requirement to prove qualification if requested. That is how the process works.

Best to take stock of this up front and approach the process fully cognizant of the burden to prove qualification. Appearances matter. Context matters. The applicant's credibility matters big, big time. Sure, the applicant must meet the prescribed requirements, but the applicant who overlooks or disregards appearances, impressions, context, and most of all factors affecting CIC's assessment of credibility, does so at his or her peril.



Additional observation re sources for declaring travel:

There are no government records an applicant can rely upon in making the declarations of travel. Never were. Even CBSA reports are not necessarily complete. Passports are often not stamped. (Even when they are stamped, for some reason many applicants will report the date of exit as the date stamped for entry into another country even if they took a red-eye flight and thus actually left Canada the day before, even if they crossed the Pacific and thus the International Date line and it was two days before . . . the date of exit is the date of exit, the date the PR crossed the imaginary line at the POE . . . not the date the plane lifted off the tarmac . . . not the date the plane arrived abroad.)

The most reliable source of dates of travel are those records the applicant keeps for himself or herself. I discussed the problem of reconstructing travel dates in the long narrative above. A real nightmare for any frequent traveler who does not have his own records. Such an applicant might consider waiting long enough to apply to be certain to have an accurate and complete accounting of travel to submit to CIC. The PR, after all, can always wait to apply later, when both qualified and prepared to prove qualification. The Federal Court decisions are rife with cases in which the applicant should have done precisely that.
 

baz

Full Member
Sep 26, 2009
26
1
Wow, this is the longest reply I have ever got. Thanks for the info. One thing everyone is harping on: This two days vs four days issue. I just mentioned it as an aside, and I think I devote exactly three sentences to this in my explanation. I actually don't even count on it, I am just mentioning it.

I can't hope to answer such a long reply, just to say that if what dpenabill is the way how it works, then it is very good for me, as I have not lied or intentionally misrepresented anything. In fact, I have gone to great length in obtaining supporting documentation that demonstrates my application.

Now at the risk of offending people (I am not trying to offend anyone btw), I think I risk listening to too many armchair experts. Thank you very much to everyone that has given me advice, and if you guys ask, I will update this thread with the result of the RW when CIC gives it to me (Just ask me).
 

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,435
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I have already elaborated in depth, and this post does so even more. The reason for doing this is more about the probability there are thousands, perhaps many thousands, of pre-June 11, 2015 applicants in a very similar situation. The rush to apply in the first five months of this year undoubtedly led to many making mistakes, overlooking and failing to report some travel, and applying with a minimal margin over the 1095 days APP threshold. The situation for baz is likely to be a very common one in the coming months as these applications proceed through the process.

Many, if not most, if not nearly all these individuals probably meet the qualifications, including the residency requirement (even if many need the Koo test applied in order to conclude they have met the residency requirement).

So I am offering these further observations with the hope of helping more than the OP here. As I noted in my previous post, the OP's situation illustrates some important aspects of these roughly similar case-scenarios and how they are likely to fare in the process. That is, this and my previous post are as much, if not far more, about illuminating some things which, I hope, can help other qualified applicants navigate this process . . . particularly those who are issued RQ and thus have what CIC designates to be a residency case.

Regarding the length of these posts: I have been closely following, analyzing, and reporting about residency related issues with regard to both grant citizenship residency requirements, and the PR Residency Obligation, for more than six years (much of this based on reading Federal Court decisions, having read nearly every Federal Court decision about citizenship published in the last five or six years, as well as numerous IAD decisions in PR RO cases, in addition to following anecdotal reports in multiple forums, continually following and staying current with the relevant CIC information including online information, guides, Program Delivery Instructions, previous versions of the Operational Manuals and Operational Bulletins, as well as internal CIC information obtained through ATI requests, including a large number of internal CIC memos from 2012 and 2013, among other incidental sources such as law review articles and media stories), so I have a rather well-stocked repertoire of information about residency related issues. This does NOT make me an expert (and I am not an expert), but nonetheless there is a substantial body of information underlying what populates the longer narratives I post and those I have posted before (which by the way are far more extensive in a forum other than this one, and dating back many years). In any event, these long posts about residency related issues are not an overnight product or written off the top of my head, but rather tap into years of digesting and analyzing a great deal of hard, well-documented information. I hope it is informative and useful for at least some deserving, qualified applicants.




Back to the OP's situation . . . and a caution:


baz said:
. . . [if this is the way it works] . . . then it is very good for me, as I have not lied or intentionally misrepresented anything.
In particular: ". . . I have not lied or intentionally misrepresented anything."

This is what you know.

Probably a good idea to ask yourself: so what?

At the least it is a good idea to objectively examine (as objectively as possible) your case asking is that what CIC is likely to perceive, to conclude? Or, more practically, is there anything, anything at all, which CIC might notice or perceive otherwise?

What matters now is what CIC (or, more precisely, what the responsible Citizenship Officer) perceives about your case, not what you know.

As to how this is going to go, what you know is, well, frankly, NOT relevant.

(I oft repeat a line stolen from a Denzel Washington cop movie: It's not what you know, it's what you can prove." The aptness of this cannot be overstated.)

At this stage what you know is mostly a source of information you can re-examine, and best to do so with a brutally critical eye looking for potential flaws, or the appearance of any flaws, just in case you are referred to a Citizenship Judge for a hearing.

While there are other variations in what might happen next, the most likely are:
-- scheduled for oath, or
-- referred to a hearing, probably with a Citizenship Judge (possibly with a Citizenship Officer -- this aspect of residency case procedure is still in flux given the implementation of the SCCA)

If the first of these, smile, go to the oath, and celebrate.



If referred to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge (and for anyone in a similar scenario):

As noted, and reiterated by several other participants, if the omission and errors are minimal in number, minor in extent, the RQ response was thorough, without gaps, and included ample objective documentation to support the case, and CIC is otherwise favourably impressed, particularly as to your veracity/credibility, odds are at least fair, perhaps even good, that a minimal shortfall will not preclude approval and being scheduled for the oath. You seem to have confidence this is the nature of your case, and if other facts and circumstances are in line, such as it is clear that members of your immediate family (spouse and dependents) have also been actually living in Canada all this time (just one example among others), that too pushes the probability meter toward success.

But . . . But . . . But it does appear you tend to look at things through the prism of self-favouring glasses (most of us do, unless we take special pains to be more objective). And it appears you do have a shortfall. So there is still a significant risk you will be referred to a CJ for a hearing.

If you are referred to a CJ for a hearing, your case is in trouble. If CIC is not satisfied and there is a shortfall, which there appears to be, that's a problem, a significant problem. A shortfall of just one day is sufficient grounds to deny citizenship. If the cases goes to a CJ hearing, CIC will be arguing for the application of the strict physical presence test, and in these cases it appears most CJs will apply the strict physical presence test. And, again, if there is any shortfall, an application of the strict physical presence test results in the case being denied.

If there is a shortfall and the case goes to a Citizenship Judge, the only chance for success rests on persuading the CJ to apply one of the alternative, qualitative tests for residency, predominantly the Koo or centralized life in Canada test.

The referral to a CJ for a hearing only happens (with, perhaps, some uncommon exceptions) when CIC has determined citizenship should not be granted and the referral itself will be, in effect, a polemic highlighting why the residency requirement has not been met. The CJ will see this, and probably have read this at least to some extent, prior to meeting you at the hearing. That is, it is probable the CJ will already be familiar with the arguments against granting citizenship before the CJ addresses you in person.



What to do if referred to a CJ hearing:

If you (or anyone else in a similar scenario, pre-June 11 applicant with a shortfall or virtually no margin over the minimum threshold . . . and given the rush earlier this year to apply before the change in requirements took effect, there are bound to be a large number of applicants in a similar scenario) are referred to a hearing with a Citizenship Judge, to succeed you will need to do all the following:

-- persuade the CJ to apply the Koo or centralized life in Canada test for residency, since it appears you applied with a minimal margin above the 1095 days APP threshold and the omitted trip alone reduces your calculation to a shortfall;
-- -- this typically entails convincing the CJ you deserve Canadian citizenship, but this is not a requirement, not an explicit issue to be addressed in the hearing, and thus it can be difficult to actually make the case you deserve citizenship since this is something you need to do indirectly . . . even though this is not a formal requirement, and not directly in issue, make no mistake, this can make the difference . . . and thus it is critical to not end up arguing with the CJ;
-- -- the deserves element also entails persuading the CJ that any omission or mistake in what you declared in your application and residency calculation was, as you say, an innocent mistake; best to keep explanations brief and simple, to avoid contention (again, absolutely avoid arguing with the CJ), to acknowledge and accept responsibility for the error(s), and avoid elaborating . . . for sure avoid slipping, as the adage goes (based on a quote from Shakespeare's Hamlet), into appearing to be someone who doth protest too much.

-- prove the date you actually, physically established a residence in Canada (not just the date of landing); this is a critical element for a shortfall case but one often overlooked, one which no one at CIC will inform you needs to be done, one which the CJ may even overlook but it is still critically important for the applicant to affirmatively present a definite date the applicant physically established a residence in Canada . . . for shortfall cases, any time in Canada prior to that date will NOT count toward residency . . . this is something that CIC has successfully used to win appeals in cases where the CJ approved the applicant but CIC continued to oppose actually granting citizenship.

-- affirmatively document, as best you can, all dates of exit and dates of entry, including day trips, even as to periods of time the CJ does not ask questions about.

-- affirmatively document, as best you can, the actual place you used as your place of abode, regardless of what your "residential address" was, for every month in which you reported you lived in Canada; it is crucial that there be no gaps, especially no gaps for any month during which you have not affirmatively documented employment at a place in Canada; caution: if for whatever reason the place you were sleeping was different than what you reported as your address of residence, hopefully this was disclosed and explained in the response to the RQ; otherwise, time to address this is sooner, not later.

-- affirmatively document, as best you can, employment in Canada; supplement previous submissions with further documentation, such as letters from employer, supervisors, colleagues; but be sure to also document other activities during any period not covered in proof of employment.

-- affirmatively supplement the evidence otherwise showing the extent to which your life was centralized in Canada, ranging from showing that members of your immediate family (spouse and dependents, if any) were living, working, or going to school in Canada, to documenting activities in Canada including doctor's visits, involvement in community events, even purchasing activities (as evidenced by debit or credit card transactions for example)

-- Be Aware of Other Sources of Information About You, and prepared to address any which might be inconsistent with what you have submitted; example in a relatively recent Federal Court case was an applicant whose LinkedIn account referenced a position with a foreign employer during a period of time the applicant had reported being employed in Canada and living and working in Canada . . . applicant's explanation that it was a largely status position (to benefit of organization and to him) and that he was actually working in Canada for a Canadian employer those months, failed to persuade the CJ or the Federal Court. Expect CIC to do Google and other internet searches in a residency case! Even in routine cases, CIC appears to often check phone numbers (using Canada411 for example). In an older case, CIC somehow (not explained how in the Court's decision) obtained a flyer from a conference in Switzerland which listed the PR as participating in that conference as a representative of a foreign company . . . CIC found this, and inferred the applicant failed to disclose that absence and failed to disclose the employment as well . . . with no more proof the applicant was actually at that conference or was employed by that foreign company, despite the applicant's assertion he did not attend that conference let alone represent that foreign company at it.

-- If, after conducting a brutally objective examination of the case, there are concerns, obtain professional counsel! Not everyone needs a lawyer, even in residency cases, but these days those who are being referred to a hearing with a CJ are more likely than not to benefit from the assistance and representation of a qualified, experienced, and reputable immigration and citizenship lawyer. Since late summer 2014, and particularly so going forward, those who are referred to a CJ hearing are probably facing a concerted argument, made by CIC to the CJ in the referral, against citizenship. For most, this would be time to lawyer-up (assuming they are qualified, have documentation to support their case, and made minimal errors or omissions in previous submissions).

Again, this is more about helping (or at least I hope it helps) the many qualified applicants who, due to this or that contingency, this or that minor mistake, find themselves in a residency case and having to prove they met the residency requirement, even those who applied with a small shortfall (there are many who assert that shortfall cases have no chance of success at all, or at best an extremely rare chance . . . and it is probably true that any significant shortfall is likely to have a negative outcome . . . but for those who made a minor mistake and that slips them into a shortfall, but who otherwise have a very strong case, there is still reason to be hopeful, perhaps even optimistic).

Good luck to all qualified applicants!
 

baz

Full Member
Sep 26, 2009
26
1
Hi All

I just wanted to update everyone. In about one month and ten days after submitting the RQ, my ecas changed to "decision made". Yesterday, I received a letter in the mail with my oath invite for 15 December. In a nutshell, here is the timeline:

  • June 3 - Invitation to test for 27 June
  • Jun 27 - Test, and then a RQ
  • August 19 - Submitted RQ
  • September 28 - Ecas Changed to Decision Made
  • November 6 - Oath invite for December 15

It's a happy ending for me, but in the interim, lots of stress! For anyone in the future that gets into a similar situation, please listen to this advice:

  • There are lots of negative people on this forum, who are in my opinion trolls. You can see some of the (off-color) answers above. Lots of these people at this forum have had bad experiences with CIC. So take their comments with a pinch of salt.
  • On the other hand, there are also lots of wonderful and positive people here. adzees deserves a mention: Thank you for your positive and helpful comments. Also, dpenabill, whose advice is worth paying for (let me say that he/she is the most clued up individual I have met on any forum)
  • If you are given a RQ, impressions (like anything in life) count. I printed all my documents, prepared them nicely with document processor etc. I sent over 2.5 kg worth of documents, and it took me three weeks to get all the documents (for instance, getting mobile phone records and past credit card statements took time). Do not gloss over things, make the effort.
  • Write with correct English (or French). I am lucky: English is my native language. If it is not, then find someone who can help you. Remember, the person who is looking at your RQ is probably very busy, make their life easier and it can only be good for you.
  • Finallly - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT LYING OR MISREPRESENTING YOURSELF.

I wish everyone who is reading this that is in the same situation as myself the best of luck. Trust me, I know the stress and pain involved. Good Luck!
 

Diplomatru

VIP Member
May 8, 2014
4,987
764
Job Offer........
Pre-Assessed..
baz said:
Hi All

I just wanted to update everyone. In about one month and ten days after submitting the RQ, my ecas changed to "decision made". Yesterday, I received a letter in the mail with my oath invite for 15 December. In a nutshell, here is the timeline:

  • June 3 - Invitation to test for 27 June
  • Jun 27 - Test, and then a RQ
  • August 19 - Submitted RQ
  • September 28 - Ecas Changed to Decision Made
  • November 6 - Oath invite for December 15

It's a happy ending for me, but in the interim, lots of stress! For anyone in the future that gets into a similar situation, please listen to this advice:

  • There are lots of negative people on this forum, who are in my opinion trolls. You can see some of the (off-color) answers above. Lots of these people at this forum have had bad experiences with CIC. So take their comments with a pinch of salt.
  • On the other hand, there are also lots of wonderful and positive people here. adzees deserves a mention: Thank you for your positive and helpful comments. Also, dpenabill, whose advice is worth paying for (let me say that he/she is the most clued up individual I have met on any forum)
  • If you are given a RQ, impressions (like anything in life) count. I printed all my documents, prepared them nicely with document processor etc. I sent over 2.5 kg worth of documents, and it took me three weeks to get all the documents (for instance, getting mobile phone records and past credit card statements took time). Do not gloss over things, make the effort.
  • Write with correct English (or French). I am lucky: English is my native language. If it is not, then find someone who can help you. Remember, the person who is looking at your RQ is probably very busy, make their life easier and it can only be good for you.
  • Finallly - DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT LYING OR MISREPRESENTING YOURSELF.

I wish everyone who is reading this that is in the same situation as myself the best of luck. Trust me, I know the stress and pain involved. Good Luck!
Congratulations. They followed up on your RQ really fast.