Left Canada as a minor, want to return

[Canada22000]

Hi,

I was born in the Middle East (citizen of India) and moved to Canada in 2004 when I was 4 years old with my family, we bought a house and had a lot of other family living as citizens. For whatever reason, my parents decided to move back later that year back to the Middle East (better jobs), sold the house and I have been living in the Middle East ever-since until 2018.

I then moved to Australia on a student visa to study a degree at a University in Sydney, Australia when I was 18. My family still lives and works in the Middle East. My bachelor degree finishes in November 2021 and I would like to move back to Canada after this.

From what I've read online, I'm still considered a PR of Canada since we haven't renounced our PR status. What are my options to move to Canada in 2021 or 2022?

I don't mind flying back to Toronto or going via the US-Canada land border as I have a USA visa. But, in case of myself getting entry as a PR with my PRTD, would that remove the status of my parents and brother automatically? Also, is it advisable for me to go via the land border without a PRTD and only my expired PR card?

Is my case strong enough under humanitarian reasons as I was a minor when my family left Canada? The reason I did not pursue my university studies in Canada was since my parent's advised me that if I go to study there, they may renounce my entire family's PR status. Right now, my parent's do want to move to Canada but only probably after 5-10 years. I certainly would like to move there before that.

Thanks in advance for your responses

 

[Canada22000]

I'd like to add that if it helps my case, I may be able to enter Canada in November 2019 (since I'm still 19 years old; birthday in March) for a month as my university summer holidays are from Nov-March.

Since the PR condition is to live in Canada for 2 of 5 years, I may be able to fulfil this condition from Nov 2021-Nov 2023; i.e once I graduate and get my degree in Sydney, Australia

 

[Bs65]

Others can comment but a couple of points in that your current PR status has nothing to do with your parents PR status given PR status is an individual responsibility. So you applying for a PRTD would have little effect on your parents status although doubtful your parents could return to Canada after all this time as PRs anyway given their failed residency obligation So it is likely their status would be revoked should they themeslves apply for a PRTD or turn up at the US border given they have no justifcation for H&C..

You seem to have determined that you cannot fly to Canada directly without a PRTD pr PR card so the only way would be to travel via the US land border and hope you do not get reported. A plan to do this in Nov 2019 would be pointless given you would need to stay put for 2 years which obviously given you plan to graduate in next few years is not a viable plan.

As to whether H&C would succeed there is no real way to predict although possible that the sooner anyone applies post 18/19 the odds have been reported as being more favourable for minors removed from country given at that age becoming an adult free to make decisions. Whether this would be better to find out via the PRTD route or turning up at the border also difficult to say.

The latter possibly more risk given you would be dealing with CBSA versus IRCC. Of course no point in applying for a PRTD until ready to come to Canada given they have a validty date but as said age starts to become an issue over time so is a balancing act based on personal circumstances.

As said others can comment as everyone has their own views on H&C

 

[Canada22000]

Others can comment but a couple of points in that your current PR status has nothing to do with your parents PR status given PR status is an individual responsibility. So you applying for a PRTD would have little effect on your parents status although doubtful your parents could return to Canada after all this time as PRs anyway given their failed residency obligation So it is likely their status would be revoked should they themeslves apply for a PRTD or turn up at the US border given they have no justifcation for H&C..

You seem to have determined that you cannot fly to Canada directly without a PRTD pr PR card so the only way would be to travel via the US land border and hope you do not get reported. A plan to do this in Nov 2019 would be pointless given you would need to stay put for 2 years which obviously given you plan to graduate in next few years is not a viable plan.

As to whether H&C would succeed there is no real way to predict although possible that the sooner anyone applies post 18/19 the odds have been reported as being more favourable for minors removed from country given at that age becoming an adult free to make decisions. Whether this would be better to find out via the PRTD route or turning up at the border also difficult to say.

The latter possibly more risk given you would be dealing with CBSA versus IRCC. Of course no point in applying for a PRTD until ready to come to Canada given they have a validty date but as said age starts to become an issue over time so is a balancing act based on personal circumstances.

As said others can comment as everyone has their own views on H&C

Thanks for your reply.

Do I need to stay in Canada for the first two years since I arrive in Canada if I go in Nov 2019? If I'm able to successfully enter Canada, I was planning to get my PR card renewed and go back to Australia to study/graduate and then go back to Canada in 2022 and stay permanently. That way I would still meet my 2/5 years obligation. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect.

If I apply and successfully get a PRTD, does it make a difference at the border if I drive through or fly into Canada?

Also, what does "get reported" mean?

 

[canuck78]

Thanks for your reply.

Do I need to stay in Canada for the first two years since I arrive in Canada if I go in Nov 2019? If I'm able to successfully enter Canada, I was planning to get my PR card renewed and go back to Australia to study/graduate and then go back to Canada in 2022 and stay permanently. That way I would still meet my 2/5 years obligation. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect.

If I apply and successfully get a PRTD, does it make a difference at the border if I drive through or fly into Canada?

Also, what does "get reported" mean?

If you plan on trying to apply for a PR card if you are able to get into Canada without being reported you might as well apply for a PRTD from Australia. You are essentially doing the same thing. Given that are studying in Australia your H&C isn’t as strong as if you had tried to return at 18. You still risk losing your PR. The best way to secure your PR, if not reported at the border, is to remain in Canada for 2 full years and avoid any interaction with immigration. Your family must have realistic expectations that there is a very good chance that they will be reported and lose their PR if they attempt to enter Canada 5-10 years from now. They have a high chances of being reported if they attempted to enter through the US now. Being reported is when you are caught not following your RO and it is reported to IRCC. You have the option to appeal but it is the beginning of the PR loss process.

 

[dpenabill]

. . . moved to Canada in 2004 when I was 4 years old with my family, we bought a house and . . . parents decided to move back later that year . . . sold the house and I have been living [outside Canada since] . . .

What are my options to move to Canada in 2021 or 2022?

. . . Is my case strong enough under humanitarian reasons as I was a minor when my family left Canada?

I agree with other observations to the extent they indicate there is a decent chance to keep PR status, which depends in large part on how soon you return to Canada to stay, BUT you are also at RISK for losing your PR status.

In particular you currently have a good chance of being allowed to keep PR status based on H&C reasons related to being removed as a minor, BUT

-- there are many factors considered in H&C cases, and given the brief period of residency and no presence in Canada for a decade and a half or so, which are both important factors as well, there is a RISK you will lose PR status
-- the SOONER you return to Canada to stay, the better chance you have of saving your status​

I'd like to add that if it helps my case, I may be able to enter Canada in November 2019 (since I'm still 19 years old; birthday in March) for a month as my university summer holidays are from Nov-March.

It is very, very difficult to forecast how things will unfold for you.

If you come to Canada TO STAY sooner, rather than later, that will be your best chance to save your PR status.

Any return to Canada, including a short visit, is likely to trigger (but NOT necessarily will trigger) Residency Obligation enforcement actions, starting with a RO examination and determination. The SOONER that happens, the better your chances (as a removed minor seeking to return to Canada reasonably soon after attaining the age of majority). BUT successfully saving your status is likely to depend on actually STAYING in Canada.

If you wait to come SOON, very SOON after you complete your studies, when you are 21 years old, you may still have a decent chance of being allowed to keep your PR status based on H&C reasons, primarily based on being removed as a minor and explaining the delay, after attaining the age of majority, on completing your course of studies. HOWEVER, the older you are, the WEAKER your H&C case is. Opinions here vary about the impact of staying abroad to complete studies, but NOT all opinions are created equal. That said, regarding this factor, staying abroad to complete studies in particular, opinions also vary in IAD decisions, some IAD panels giving this circumstance more positive weight than others, and some giving it negative weight based on it being a personal choice to remain outside Canada. There is very little doubt that the longer you wait to come to Canada to stay, the less chance you will have to keep PR status.

Since the PR condition is to live in Canada for 2 of 5 years, I may be able to fulfil this condition from Nov 2021-Nov 2023; i.e once I graduate and get my degree in Sydney, Australia

Do I need to stay in Canada for the first two years since I arrive in Canada if I go in Nov 2019? If I'm able to successfully enter Canada, I was planning to get my PR card renewed and go back to Australia to study/graduate and then go back to Canada in 2022 and stay permanently. That way I would still meet my 2/5 years obligation. Please let me know if any of this is incorrect.

The 2/5 rule is based on the PREVIOUS five years as of the DATE a Residency Obligation examination/determination is made. For example, apart from H&C relief, if you are issued a new PR card in March 2020, and you leave Canada, the next time you return to Canada a PoE officer can examine your compliance with the RO as of that date, and compliance will be based on whether you have met the 2/5 rule based on the five year time period prior to that day.

Thus, if you are issued a new PR card in March 2020, and you leave Canada, and you return to Canada November 3, 2021, your compliance with the RO will be based on whether you were present in Canada for at least 730 days between November 3, 2016 and November 3, 2021.

IF there is a positive decision giving a PR H&C relief from a breach of the RO, that changes the calculation SOME. To some extent it seems as if the positive H&C decision restarts the clock. BUT does not do so necessarily. The IAD decisions do not clearly demarcate the difference precisely. As best I can sort this out, it warrants remembering that if a PR has been outside Canada more than 1095 days in the previous five years (in Canada less than 730 days in that period), THAT IS A BREACH OF THE RO.

Thus, in effect, even if the PR has been given H&C relief and allowed to keep PR status, if a PR has been outside Canada more than 1095 days in the previous five years (in Canada less than 730 days in that period), THAT IS A BREACH OF THE RO. If, however, the circumstances have NOT materially changed, at least not by a lot, that H&C decision should still apply and the PR allowed to keep status. BUT, IN CONTRAST, if the PR only briefly stayed in Canada after the H&C decision, and then went abroad for an extended period of time, that alone could be considered a material change in circumstances justifying NOT allowing the PR to keep status the next time. There are IAD decisions upholding precisely these kinds of decisions.

If I apply and successfully get a PRTD, does it make a difference at the border if I drive through or fly into Canada?

Also, what does "get reported" mean?

"Reported" refers to the procedure at a PoE when a returning PR is examined as to RO compliance and the examining officer determines the PR is in breach of the RO. The PoE officer then issues a 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility based on a breach of the RO. The PR is then, or sometimes later but usually then, while still at the PoE, interviewed by another officer, who is designated the "Minister's Delegate" (but who is ordinarily just another officer), who decides whether to issue a Departure Order or set aside the 44(1) Report for H&C reasons. In either event the PR is allowed to enter Canada. If a Departure Order was issued, the PR has thirty days to appeal.

The advantage of applying for a PR Travel Document is that you can make the H&C case and if that is successful, and a PR TD is issued, you KNOW you have saved your PR status. No need to GAMBLE on saving PR status by coming and seeing how it goes at the border.

Moreover, if the PR TD is issued specifically on H&C grounds, the PR can safely apply for a new PR card soon after arriving in Canada (there is still some risk in this, but if the PR comes and settles PERMANENTLY, before making the PR card application, the risk should be quite small).

The disadvantages include:

-- most reporting (especially in the numbers of RO cases before the IAD) indicates that Visa Offices are more strict in enforcing the PR RO; that PoE officers tend to be more liberal if not outright generous in weighing H&C reasons (there are some likely reasons why this is so, addressed at length in other topics)
-- UNLESS the PR has been in Canada within the previous year, the PR will not be given a special TD to come to Canada pending an appeal (noting, though, that PRs who can travel via the U.S. can still come to Canada via the U.S.)​

If you are issued a PR TD, the means of transportation does not matter. You can fly directly to Canada. Or come via the U.S. The PR TD gets you into Canada.

If you come to Canada without applying for a PR TD, coming via the U.S., you might or might not be "Reported" at the PoE. AND, even if you are Reported you might, or might not, be allowed to keep PR status based on H&C reasons.

If you are allowed to enter Canada without a formal H&C decision, you can CURE the RO breach by staying two years before leaving Canada and before applying for a new PR card. BUT if you need to know sooner, or you need to travel abroad sooner, you could apply for a new PR card based on H&C reasons and force a decision, one way or the other.

Overall there are many, many contingencies and possible variations in what can happen. You are in breach of the RO. So you are at RISK for losing PR status. You have a chance to keep your status. The sooner you come to Canada to stay, the better. Make no mistake, however, about the purpose of a grant of PR status, which includes allowing relief which enables a PR to keep status: it is so the individual CAN SETTLE IN CANADA PERMANENTLY. There is a tendency by more than a few to underestimate the importance of this when anticipating how IRCC or CBSA will handle their case.

 

[Canada22000]

The advantage of applying for a PR Travel Document is that you can make the H&C case and if that is successful, and a PR TD is issued, you KNOW you have saved your PR status. No need to GAMBLE on saving PR status by coming and seeing how it goes at the border.

Thank you so much for the info.

So, if I apply for my PRTD and get it, I can fly to Canada and then it's preferable if I only apply to renew my PR card after 2 years of living there continuously right?
If my PRTD application gets denied, does that mean my PR status is revoked? Or can I still drive through the land border and present my H&C case to Canadian officials?

If you wait to come SOON, very SOON after you complete your studies, when you are 21 years old, you may still have a decent chance of being allowed to keep your PR status based on H&C reasons, primarily based on being removed as a minor and explaining the delay, after attaining the age of majority, on completing your course of studies. HOWEVER, the older you are, the WEAKER your H&C case is. Opinions here vary about the impact of staying abroad to complete studies, but NOT all opinions are created equal. That said, regarding this factor, staying abroad to complete studies in particular, opinions also vary in IAD decisions, some IAD panels giving this circumstance more positive weight than others, and some giving it negative weight based on it being a personal choice to remain outside Canada.

I thought of continuing my degree in Canada but my field of study (B. Property Economics) is not offered at any Canadian university (from my online search at least). Would saying that my field of study wasn't available at a Canadian university be considered a +1 in my PRTD case, i.e. when they ask me my reasons for not going to Canada when I was 18 instead of 21?

At the moment it looks like my best bet is leaving Australia as soon as I graduate in Nov 2021 and move to Canada as that's the only time I will be able to maintain my RO.

Is it recommended to hire an experienced Canadian immigration lawyer or professional to handle my case?

 

[canuck78]

Do you have a SIN#?

 

[Canada22000]

Do you have a SIN#?

Yes, I do have my SIN#

 

[vensak]

even if he has SIN, it is dormant by now. And without a valid PR card, he would not be able to reactivate it.
Lets put is simple. Your chances with your current planing are rather bleak.

lets say, that you will be let to enter for that 1 month. Attention, not being reported does not give you any free pass to apply for PR card. Such application would start removal process and you need to provide a strong H&C (which honestly you do not seem to have).
Anyway, even if removed as minor would be accepted, you leaving Canada for another 2 years would flush everything down the toilet.
Why? Because even if you win H&C at any leave and returning your RO obligations can be rechecked and with you then being adult for past 3 years will put any "removal as minor" loophole out of picture.
And yes I will keep calling spade a spade, as this is another case of somebody wanting to use that loophole.

Now for the second option, to return in 2021. By that time your only chance is a Russian roulette to hit a kindhearted immigration officer. If not, you will be reported and the ordeal will start then. Except by that time your weak H&C would be practically non existent. So unless you are studying something so exceptional, that there is no university in Canada offering this program, you can say kiss goodbye to your PR.

If you will be that lucky and not being reported, that would still mean to stay 2 years off radar. And with your dormant SIN, which equals you not being able to work legally, that one is funny to pull off.

That is the reason, why people are advising you to return as soon as possible.
Then again choice is yours.

 

[dpenabill]

So, if I apply for my PRTD and get it, I can fly to Canada and then it's preferable if I only apply to renew my PR card after 2 years of living there continuously right?
If my PRTD application gets denied, does that mean my PR status is revoked? Or can I still drive through the land border and present my H&C case to Canadian officials?

IF A PR TRAVEL DOCUMENT IS GRANTED:

If you apply for a PR TD, obviously you will only be granted that based on H&C reasons. Ordinarily the PR TD will have a code which indicates it was issued pursuant to H&C reasons, but there are reports indicating this is not always done . . . sometimes the code is for the generic Travel Document despite its issuance depending on H&C relief for an obvious breach of the RO.

If the PR TD has the H&C reasons code, and you then come to Canada relatively soon (as in not waiting until the last week or so the TD is valid for), and you establish real residence in Canada, it should be safe to apply for a new PR card without waiting two years . . . just waiting long enough to show you are in fact settling to stay in Canada. IRCC will ordinarily give the Visa Office H&C decision credit and grant a new card.

If the PR TD does not show the H&C reasons code, it should still be safe to apply for a new PR card without waiting the full two years. BUT the RISK is a little higher, and given that additional risk, it would probably prudent to wait at least a bit longer (few months) to make it more clear you have settled to STAY in Canada. (Note: this is specifically about a removed as a minor situation, where it obvious the PR TD was granted on H&C grounds EVEN if the coding in the TD does not show that.)

If you are granted a new PR card, it should be safe to make SHORT trips abroad, but if you go abroad for any extended period of time (such as months) before you are in full compliance with the RO (that is, until you have been IN Canada at least 730 days within the previous five years), you could be at RISK the next time you return to Canada.


IF A PR TRAVEL DOCUMENT IS DENIED:

If your application for a PR TD is denied, that is a formal decision terminating your PR status. However, as a Canadian you have the right of appeal. Currently the period within which an appeal can be made is sixty days. You remain a PR while an appeal is pending. If you have been IN Canada within the previous year, you will ordinarily be issued (upon application) a special PR TD which allows a PR to come to Canada pending the appeal. Even if you are not eligible for the special PR TD, you can come to Canada IF you can travel via the U.S., and stay pending the appeal. You MUST, at least in effect, win the appeal in order to keep PR status.

At the moment it looks like my best bet is leaving Australia as soon as I graduate in Nov 2021 and move to Canada as that's the only time I will be able to maintain my RO.

This is, of course, a personal decision. After all, personal priorities loom large in what you will want to consider in making such a decision. For some, saving PR status has a higher priority. For others, it is worth gambling some in deference to other priorities.

To be clear, as previously noted, the longer you wait to make the move to Canada, the greater the RISK you will lose PR status. I do NOT share the view expressed by @vensak that waiting to complete your current studies will reduce your odds to those equivalent to Russian Roulette (one in six). BUT I cannot quantify what the odds will be.

If you came to Canada to stay soon, your odds should be quite good. Some risk, but generally good odds. The longer you wait, the lower those odds go.

Is it recommended to hire an experienced Canadian immigration lawyer or professional to handle my case?

This too is a very personal decision. It depends in part on how well you can prepare yourself to make a H&C case in a PR TD application OR be prepared to make the H&C case to officers at a PoE. Remember, if you are denied a PR TD, you can appeal. Likewise, if you are reported at a PoE, you can appeal. You can hire a Canadian immigration lawyer for the appeal.

That is, you should be able to postpone making a decision about hiring a lawyer until you actually attempt to make a move to Canada.

And, of course, how easily one can afford the expense of a lawyer is a big factor. I paid for a lawyer's advice attendant a simple spousal sponsorship PR application. I could afford the insurance, so to say.

 

[Canada22000]

I definitely understand and appreciate the information.

If you will be that lucky and not being reported, that would still mean to stay 2 years off radar. And with your dormant SIN, which equals you not being able to work legally, that one is funny to pull off.

Do you mean that if I get through into Canada through the land border I need to wait for 2 years until I can renew my card and ONLY then be legally able to work and study?

As of now, I'm nearly in the middle of my degree in Sydney and the only time I can move permanently to Canada for at least 2 years is in Nov 2021. What I study in Sydney is rather unique, to be honest. The only university that offers something close to this is offered as a Masters degree in York University. I can only hope at this point in time that I'll have a kindhearted immigration officer in two years as I cannot drop out of my degree right now, which I realise is my personal decision.

 

[vensak]

I definitely understand and appreciate the information.



Do you mean that if I get through into Canada through the land border I need to wait for 2 years until I can renew my card and ONLY then be legally able to work and study?

As of now, I'm nearly in the middle of my degree in Sydney and the only time I can move permanently to Canada for at least 2 years is in Nov 2021. What I study in Sydney is rather unique, to be honest. The only university that offers something close to this is offered as a Masters degree in York University. I can only hope at this point in time that I'll have a kindhearted immigration officer in two years as I cannot drop out of my degree right now, which I realise is my personal decision.

if you are not reported than your PR is not affected, however any attempt to get PR card renewal can lead into starting removal process as you do not meet RO.
It is not that you legally cannot, it is simply you might not have proper document (PR card) to get other proper documents (to activate your SIN for example). And that will be a problem for any employer.
As for studying schools may require valid PR as well.

And are you sure that what you are studying is so unique that you cannot study it in Canada? Did you really check it out properly? And it is not about if you get master or bachelor diploma, it is about if the field of study itself is not covered in Canada at all.

 

[Canada22000]

It is not that you legally cannot, it is simply you might not have proper document (PR card) to get other proper documents (to activate your SIN for example). And that will be a problem for any employer.
As for studying schools may require valid PR as well.

From what I understood is that if I try to renew my PR card before I satisfy my RO, I'm at a higher risk of getting rejected.
So does this mean that if I decide to drop out of my university in Australia and successfully enter into Canada later this year, I won't be able to do anything productive in terms of working or transferring to another university, for at least two years since I enter?

 

[vensak]

From what I understood is that if I try to renew my PR card before I satisfy my RO, I'm at a higher risk of getting rejected.
So does this mean that if I decide to drop out of my university in Australia and successfully enter into Canada later this year, I won't be able to do anything productive in terms of working or transferring to another university, for at least two years since I enter?

Impossibility to renew PR can can make problems elsewhere. For example Ontario will ask from you point blank to show a valid PR card in order to get your health insurance done (time to use your COPR expired long long ago).
It will also mean that you cannot leave country until those 2 years are up, otherwise you will be playing lottery each time you will be entering back to Canada

Honestly I suspect, that you as many others are trying to find a spot in a western country and it might have been that you have realized, that for whatever reason Australia will not be as easy to immigrate as you thought anymore.
So that is why you are now investigating options for Canada. You might or might not be lucky now. And it is hard to predict what will happen later on (if there will be changes on how to handle such cases).