Just came back to Canada - Not meeting residency obligation?????

[DreamCanadian]

thanks @Ponga and @dpenabill . You have great knowledge

appreciate your help

 

[sango]

hello, Hope any one can help me out.
So previously I was outside Canada, stuck due to the travel ban of direct flights from India to Canada.
So finally entered Canada via third country, with my husband (PR holder) & 4 yr daughter ( Canadian Citizen)
As I am not meeting residency obligation, as of today I am 80 days short of Total 730 days & that is because I was not able to travel due to travel ban & moreover me & my husband was not fully vaccinated till the time before we travelled. After our vaccination we made our mind to go via 3rd country, but seriously that was so expensive & it consist of lots of risk. which I think is not safe while travelling with kids.
So when I entered Toronto airport, I was asked about my residency obligation, which of course I told them the actual truth, that we were stuck due to travel ban, but I don't know what the officer was thinking? he asked me why I was out for so long??? so I told him that there were some family issues back in India, as we have to support my in laws in this pandemic & moreover we were not feeling safe to travel in covid with our 4 yr old little daughter. So after sometime he said you can go & you can apply for renewal of your pr card but also said that totally depends on the IRCC that will they approve your application or not.

So my question is :
what would happen if I now wait till I am back in compliance with my days & then apply for PR renewal
or I should file the application of PR renewal ASAP explaining why I was not able to meet RO???
what are the chances??????
Thanks if anyone can answer.

I also had a similar problem in April 2021 when I came back, i had not met RO, my card was - months to expiry. The immigration officer after questioning me made some notes. Till date i have not reeived any letter in my friend adress i used. I got my health card before my PR card expired,, also got my Quebec Drivers license,, I am working since I arrived without any problem. I plan to leave Canada aftter 2 years by mid April 2023.

 

[Eusufzai]

I also had a similar problem in April 2021 when I came back, i had not met RO, my card was - months to expiry. The immigration officer after questioning me made some notes. Till date i have not reeived any letter in my friend adress i used. I got my health card before my PR card expired,, also got my Quebec Drivers license,, I am working since I arrived without any problem. I plan to leave Canada aftter 2 years by mid April 2023.

Hello Sango,

Just wan to know, how many days you spent in Canada after having PR card. How many months you were short of required RO. Which port of entry did you use.

Thank you and God bless you.

Best regards,

Eusufzai

 

[abdo_85]

I also had a similar problem in April 2021 when I came back, i had not met RO, my card was - months to expiry. The immigration officer after questioning me made some notes. Till date i have not reeived any letter in my friend adress i used. I got my health card before my PR card expired,, also got my Quebec Drivers license,, I am working since I arrived without any problem. I plan to leave Canada aftter 2 years by mid April 2023.

Which airport you landed in April 2021?

 

[Ponga]

Which airport you landed in April 2021?

It probably doesn't matter.

Any PR that has not met their R.O., even with a valid card, should expect that if the CBSA officer knows/suspects that the PR has not/will not comply, they could be questioned...maybe extensively. They cannot be denied entry, unless they are deemed to be inadmissible on grounds other than R.O.

 

[hobokan]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and i would like to know what i can do in this situation -

I am living in USA since last 6 years and my H1B getting maxout and i had the PR of canada before that. I have expired PR card (i did not lived in canada since last 6 years).

I have consulted one attorney to know how can i reactivate my status and this is what i got -

I cannot travel by air as i do not have valid PR card, but i can still enter in Canada by land border as the PR status never expires and continue living in Canada for 3 years .

Should i use this option ?

 

[armoured]

I cannot travel by air as i do not have valid PR card, but i can still enter in Canada by land border as the PR status never expires and continue living in Canada for 3 years .

Should i use this option ?

This information is correct. Note, however, that:
1) You will be let in - if 'reported' for not fulfilling resdiency obligation, you will have right of appeal and can live in Canada until that is resolved.
2) If not reported, you can live in Canada and work, but there are some issues that may arise. First, travel may be extremely problematic until you've lived in Canada two years and got a new PR card; if your lifestyle/work requires travel, it may not work well. You may face difficulties getting health care cards and other routine stuff until you have a new PR card (specifics depend on province). If you have a SIN number, it may have been placed in 'dormant' status and that may or may not cause problems working (it shouldn't legally - in my opinion - but that doesn't mean it can be resolved easily).

I'd suggest doing research on these latter points.

 

[Ponga]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and i would like to know what i can do in this situation -

I am living in USA since last 6 years and my H1B getting maxout and i had the PR of canada before that. I have expired PR card (i did not lived in canada since last 6 years).

I have consulted one attorney to know how can i reactivate my status and this is what i got -

I cannot travel by air as i do not have valid PR card, but i can still enter in Canada by land border as the PR status never expires and continue living in Canada for 3 years .

Should i use this option ?

Firstly, your PR status has not expired; your PR card has expired. As of right now, you are still a PR of Canada, unless your status has formally been revoked by IRCC for not meeting the Residency Obligation to maintain that status.

Your attorney is correct, but has left out one very important part...
If you can prove to the CBSA officer that you are a PR, which even an expired card would seem to do that, the officer can (and probably will) know that you have not met the R.O. (not even close) and could very well create a report [44(1)] that could lead to you losing your PR status. Usually, this takes a bit of time and you would need to attend a hearing before your status is revoked and you have to leave Canada. I have heard that if the CBSA officer writes the report and has another officer (who is deemed to be a Minister's Delegate) review the report, and agrees with the report, that officer can issue a Removal Order. Not sure if that would mean immediate removal, or deferred pending further review, but either way...not good.

As you can see, your situation is likely to be problematic in the long run, but...in the off chane that you are allowed to enter without being reported, you would have to stay in Canada for at least 2 years (suggest 2 years + a few months) before you would be back in compliance and would then apply to renew your card. The problem is, depending on which province you want to live in, not having a valid PR card for more than 2 years, will be tough on you. You may not be able to obtain health coverage, a DL, or any number of other things that people usually need to `live'.

 

[armoured]

I have heard that if the CBSA officer writes the report and has another officer (who is deemed to be a Minister's Delegate) review the report, and agrees with the report, that officer can issue a Removal Order. Not sure if that would mean immediate removal, or deferred pending further review, but either way...not good.

This is what getting 'reported' at this stage means; it is still subject to appeal at this stage (PR is given 30 days to return as under appeal). While the appeal is in process - which can take quite some time - any removal orders are stayed.

Note - you characterized as 'on the off chance' not reported. I think very hard to say with any certainty what will happen - there are plenty of cases where PRs out of status at land border are just waved through.

On the other side - cases where at least some H&*C reasons and less time out of compliance - it's a bit easier to guess that chances of not being reported are better. (in part because chances on appeal would be better, and cbsa officers don't want to waste time on reports that won't hold up)

You may be right - just saying that I do not know, and think it hard to actually say with any certainty.

 

[YVR123]

Hello,

I am new to this forum and i would like to know what i can do in this situation -

I am living in USA since last 6 years and my H1B getting maxout and i had the PR of canada before that. I have expired PR card (i did not lived in canada since last 6 years).

I have consulted one attorney to know how can i reactivate my status and this is what i got -

I cannot travel by air as i do not have valid PR card, but i can still enter in Canada by land border as the PR status never expires and continue living in Canada for 3 years .

Should i use this option ?

I would say your chance of being reported is high since you have not lived in Canada for the last 6 years. However, as we have seen some CBSA officer can still choose not to report you for not meeting the RO.
If you are reported, you will be waiting for hearing and the process of getting your PR status revoked. In this case, the time you spent in Canada waiting for the hearing and final decision would NOT counted towards your RO. (so the living for 3 years won't help you to get your PR RO back)

If you are lucky and CBSA doesn't report you, you could tried to stay in Canada. But with expired PR card, it maybe hard to get healthcare coverage, DL ...etc. And hopefully you had a SIN card/number. Otherwise, you may have issue getting your SIN and you can't work legally until you get your new PR card back.

 

[Ponga]

This is what getting 'reported' at this stage means; it is still subject to appeal at this stage (PR is given 30 days to return as under appeal). While the appeal is in process - which can take quite some time - any removal orders are stayed.

Having a Minister Delegate involved while the PR is present, who then generates a Removal Order, certainly seems worse than just having a 44(1) report created.

 

[armoured]

Having a Minister delegate involved while the PR is present, who then generates a Removal Order, certainly seems worse than just having a 44(1) report created.

The 'normal' process is that the 44(1) report is created and then Minister's delegate (another CBSA office) clears - so what you're describing is the normal process.

Apparently sometimes - infrequently, perhaps even rare - there is no-one avialble to 'clear' the report and it can be held for clearance by another later. Which results in delays and uncertainty whether one has been cleared or finalized. (I suspect that sometimes the report is not actually finalized and just kind of is forgotten about - the circular file - or if the minister's delegate doesn't clear it, it is more or less thrown out - again resulting in uncertainty instead of the PR finding out they do not need to worry about it.)

But in theory there shouldn't be one 'just created' - it's a time sensitive thing.

 

[Ponga]

Yes, when the officer tells the PR that they will write the report, but never does...it leaves the PR constantly looking over their shoulder (and mailbox) waiting for something that never comes. Boo!

 

[dpenabill]

Some key elements addressed:

• CBSA officers do not have authority to deny a PR entry into Canada
• CBSA officers can prepare inadmissibility reports during a PoE examination, but they can ONLY issue a Removal/Departure Order for inadmissibility based on breach of the Residency Obligation
• PoE CBSA officers cannot issue a Removal Order to PRs for inadmissibility based on any other grounds (rather CBSA can prosecute a case before the Immigration Division, which can issue a Removal Order after a hearing before the ID)

Distinction: this is about the process leading to the loss of PR status. Enforceable deportation decisions are yet a completely separate matter. A PR cannot be denied entry into Canada and cannot be deported. But of course if a PR loses PR status, they are no longer a PR, and once that has happened, they can indeed be denied entry at a PoE, and they can be deported if they are in Canada . . . BUT actual removal or deportation is subject to the law and rules and procedures governing deportation in particular, including processing pre-removal risk assessment.

So, when a Removal Order comes into force, that terminates PR status. The person is then a Foreign National (FN) not a PR. Actual removal, that's something else.

Any PR that has not met their R.O., even with a valid card, should expect that if the CBSA officer knows/suspects that the PR has not/will not comply, they could be questioned...maybe extensively. They cannot be denied entry, unless they are deemed to be inadmissible on grounds other than R.O.

First part, OK.

Regarding the second part: CBSA officers do NOT have authority to deny a PR entry into Canada, not for inadmissibility based on a RO breach, not for inadmissibility on grounds other than RO.

By the way: the following observations are NOT opinion (except some comments noted otherwise, or clearly so in context). It is a digested summary of known and verifiable information:​

Border control officers, CBSA officers, do NOT have the authority to deny entry to a PR. They do not have the authority to even issue a Removal Order to a PR except for inadmissibility based on a breach of the RO.

In particular, the circumstance in which a CBSA officer can issue a Removal Order to a PR is when an inadmissibility report has been prepared by a different officer, based on non-compliance with the RO, and the officer issuing the Removal Order has the authority of a Minister's Delegate, and has duly reviewed the inadmissibility report, has determined it is valid-in-law, and has considered whether there are sufficient H&C reasons to allow the person to keep PR status. This is what many might describe as the "normal" procedure (many more gloss over the process, just referring to the whole thing as being "Reported"), the typical process, and it is fairly common among PRs arriving at a PoE when in breach of the RO, and one can easily read scores of actual cases in which this process was followed, by looking at official IAD decisions (here -- should link) in loss-of-PR cases based on a RO breach and in which the Minister of Public Safety is a party.

(In contrast, the vast majority of IAD decisions in loss-of-PR cases based on a RO breach where the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration (IRCC) is a party, are appeals from visa office decisions denying a PR Travel Document for the RO breach. There are also some are Domestic Network (DN) IRCC decisions such as where a local office proceeds on a 44(1) Report when CDC has referred a PR for investigation, such as a PR who applied for a PR card but is identified as being in breach of the RO.)

For RO inadmissibility, sometimes there are variations in how this goes in practice. But the vast majority of cases in which PRs lose status for a RO breach are either cases where a PR TD application is denied, or the there is a 44(1) Report and Removal Order issued during a PoE examination. Either is subject to appeal.

Otherwise, border control CBSA officers not only lack authority to deny a PR entry for inadmissibility based on other grounds, they lack authority to issue a Removal Order. If, for example, a border officer identifies a returning PR to be an individual who is inadmissible for serious criminality, the PR is still allowed entry, and in the meantime CBSA refers the matter to the Immigration Division.

Thus . . .

If your status is going to be revoked:
IRCC revokes the status, generally, but if you are determined to be inadmissible by CBSA for reasons other than failing to maintain your R.O., I suspect that they could/would deny entry and may be able to revoke status , but not entirely sure.

If PR status is "going to be revoked" arising out of a PoE examination, typically (usually, normally, most of the time), it is NOT IRCC that does it. If it is about a breach of the RO, it is the second reviewing CBSA officer who makes that decision, again after reviewing the Report and finding it is valid-in-law and the PR (in an interview) has not presented sufficient H&C reasons to overcome the breach. Which ordinarily should and will occur while the PR is still in the PoE, but as @armoured noted, stuff happens, and the interview and Report's review can be postponed.

The decision to terminate PR status is in effect documented by the issuance of a Removal Order, but such a Removal Order does not immediately come into force, so it does not constitute a basis for denying entry. The Removal Order does not become "enforceable" for at least 30 days, and if an appeal is timely filed, it is not enforceable while the appeal is pending.

There are many forum participants who gloss over this process, describe the PoE procedure as "being Reported," and say this "starts" the process to revoke PR status. For those who appeal, that describes how it goes measured by time. But the actual decision to terminate PR status is effected by the second officer's decision to issue a Removal Order rather than set the Report aside, usually then and there in the PoE. That's the decision. It does not "start" the process, but actually is the decision concluding the process. However it can be appealed, and that takes time, and those are generally the kinds of cases discussed in this forum.

NOTE: PRs who are the subject of a decision finding them inadmissible, and accordingly have been issued a Removal Order, remain PRs while an appeal is pending. Like any other PR, CBSA cannot deny them entry. Indeed, IRCC will issue them one-year PR cards (if applied for). In contrast, if the Removal Order "comes into force" or is "enforceable," the individual is no longer a PR, bit rather is a FN, the decision terminating PR status is final and complete, and in force, and thus the individual is thereafter subject to the procedures applicable to Foreign Nationals. Confusion is sometimes sowed when a former PR is referred to as a PR, which can happen in official decisions as well as online information, let alone in informal discussion (such as anecdotal reporting here). But make no mistake, makes a huge difference if and when a Removal Order takes effect, is enforceable, since that means the individual is no longer a PR . . . and thus, for one example, does not have the right of appeal a PR has, and not a right of entry into Canada.

Thus, for example, there is no such person as a PR subject to an enforceable Removal Order. If they are subject to an enforceable Removal Order, they are NOT a PR.​

Regarding Delayed Decisions on a PoE Prepared 44(1) Report:

Of course not every case proceeds as outlined in the guidelines. The most commonly seen wrinkle seems to be when no officer is available to timely review the Report, so the PR is allowed to proceed into Canada after being advised they will be contacted. What we know about these cases is very limited, largely dependent on sketchy anecdotal reports, often reported by PRs with limited understanding of the process, and it seems that, at least sometimes, the PR may not be given a copy of the 44(1) Report and may not even be informed a Report has been prepared, just told that they will be contacted for an interview or hearing.

The anecdotal reporting also includes numerous cases in which the PR is not at all sure what happened, why, what is next, among other uncertain and often confused circumstances. This includes cases where it appears or is likely an officer in Secondary put an "alert" (what we tend to call a "flag") in the PR's GCMS record.

These vary far too much and are typically too sketchy to support any reliable, general conclusions. I have seen very little about these scenarios reported in officially published cases, which makes it particularly difficult to unravel and understand what has happened in them, let alone to extrapolate general observations.

 

[Eusufzai]

This information is correct. Note, however, that:
1) You will be let in - if 'reported' for not fulfilling resdiency obligation, you will have right of appeal and can live in Canada until that is resolved.
2) If not reported, you can live in Canada and work, but there are some issues that may arise. First, travel may be extremely problematic until you've lived in Canada two years and got a new PR card; if your lifestyle/work requires travel, it may not work well. You may face difficulties getting health care cards and other routine stuff until you have a new PR card (specifics depend on province). If you have a SIN number, it may have been placed in 'dormant' status and that may or may not cause problems working (it shouldn't legally - in my opinion - but that doesn't mean it can be resolved easily).

I'd suggest doing research on these latter points.

How can someone know his/her SIN is in dormant condition? Is there any online platform to check it out?