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Is this a PR condition voilation and what should I do?

chs2yyc

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Apr 24, 2012
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My wife left our residence 2 1/2 weeks ago and has not come back. We have a 5 month old son. She is a PR with the condition of cohabitating together.

We still talk and were trying to work things out and are at an impasse and it's going to probably fail.

I have been giving her money and she uses my car. Obviously and she knows and acknowledges it that I can't pay rent somewhere else. But am still making sure she has food etc

But in the meantime as we live apart, does this mean we are not cohabitating together and would be a violation of her conditional PR?
 

CanV

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Apr 30, 2012
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chs2yyc said:
My wife left our residence 2 1/2 weeks ago and has not come back. We have a 5 month old son. She is a PR with the condition of cohabitating together.

We still talk and were trying to work things out and are at an impasse and it's going to probably fail.

I have been giving her money and she uses my car. Obviously and she knows and acknowledges it that I can't pay rent somewhere else. But am still making sure she has food etc

But in the meantime as we live apart, does this mean we are not cohabitating together and would be a violation of her conditional PR?
Yes she is. If things dont work out she will have to leave.
 

Alurra71

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chs2yyc said:
My wife left our residence 2 1/2 weeks ago and has not come back. We have a 5 month old son. She is a PR with the condition of cohabitating together.

We still talk and were trying to work things out and are at an impasse and it's going to probably fail.

I have been giving her money and she uses my car. Obviously and she knows and acknowledges it that I can't pay rent somewhere else. But am still making sure she has food etc

But in the meantime as we live apart, does this mean we are not cohabitating together and would be a violation of her conditional PR?
Yes, that is exactly what it means. You are not cohabiting and it is a violation of her conditional PR. If you know the relationship is going to break down and the marriage is not salvagable then you should report the breakdown to CIC and let them make a final decision. It is your life in the balance here. If you don't report this breakdown and she decides to come back to Canada and get welfare it's on your dime and you're on the hook to pay it ALL back for the first 3 years after she landed in Canada. If she doesn't want to be in Canada and doesn't want to be with you, then there is no reason for you to maintain the PR and this will absolve you (or that is the basis of the rule) that should she return in that 3 year time frame and get welfare, since you reported it, you won't be required to pay it back.

I know it's all hard to even think about right now, the wounds are fresh and all that comes along with something like this, but if you just let is 'slide' you might find yourself in a bind 5 or even 10 years down the road when you try to perhaps sponsor another spouse or buy a house or anything of that like and find out you owe the Canadian Gov't a boat load of money because she availed herself of welfare. Think about what is best for you.
 

eileenf

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Apr 25, 2013
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Please contact a settlement worker or an immigration lawyer first! The risk of the mother of your baby being deported and barred from Canada (usually permanently) is not something to take lightly.
 

david1697

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chs2yyc said:
But in the meantime as we live apart, does this mean we are not cohabitating together and would be a violation of her conditional PR?
Answer to second part of your question could be 'Yes' and it could be 'No'.

Obviously, you are not cohabiting ('cohabit' means to live together) if she doesn't stay in the same household as you.

However, it's not clear if she violates condition of her PR just because she is no longer living with you.

There are more important questions to be answered, such as: did you two enter into marriage in good faith (truly wanting to be married), or did one or both of you marry so one of you could gain a Canadian PR?

Another important question is: what happened before she broke up with you? Were you in normal relationship and suddenly it deteriorated? If so, what were circumstances that led to it?

Finally, have you used any psychological pressure or threat on her , believing she would be your hostage as someone in a dependent relationship? Did you abuse her?

The issue comes up in US immigration forums all the time, with many cases ending rather messy after (or during) bitter divorce proceedings. With Canadian law being relatively new, you may want to hire a licensed attorney to give you a legal advise.
 

Alurra71

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eileenf said:
Please contact a settlement worker or an immigration lawyer first! The risk of the mother of your baby being deported and barred from Canada (usually permanently) is not something to take lightly.
He has already stated in another thread that she has gone back to the US. She would neither be at risk for deportation nor permanently banned from Canada. The only risk is to her status as a PR.

The other things that are not to be taken lightly is a sponsor being responsible to pay back any and all welfare monies that someone decides to avail themselves of because they didn't want to be in the relationship any longer. How do you weigh the risks of someone being potentially deported back to their country of origin against the other possibility of financial ruin and possibly never being able to either sponsor another spouse ever or not being able to obtain a mortgage or some other such necessity because they owe the Canadian Gov't so much money they'll never get it paid off in a timely manner?

I don't want to have an argument regarding what the OP should or shouldn't do, but what I don't like is when statements like this are thrown out there. The OP asked if it was a violation of Condition 51 if his wife is no longer living with him. The short answer, is yes, it is a violation.
 

Alurra71

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david1697 said:
Answer to second part of your question could be 'Yes' and it could be 'No'.

Obviously, you are not cohabiting ('cohabit' means to live together) if she doesn't stay in the same household as you.

However, it's not clear if she violates condition of her PR just because she is no longer living with you.

There are more important questions to be answered, such as: did you two enter into marriage in good faith (truly wanting to be married), or did one or both of you marry so one of you could gain a Canadian PR?

Another important question is: what happened before she broke up with you? Were you in normal relationship and suddenly it deteriorated? If so, what were circumstances that led to it?

Finally, have you used any psychological pressure or threat on her , believing she would be your hostage as someone in a dependent relationship? Did you abuse her?

The issue comes up in US immigration forums all the time, with many cases ending rather messy after (or during) bitter divorce proceedings. With Canadian law being relatively new, you may want to hire a licensed attorney to give you a legal advise.
I have no idea why you are even alluding to potential abuse here. The OP asked if it is a violation of Condition 51 if his wife does not live with him. The simple answer is yes. He should report the marital breakdown, regardless of the reasons, to CIC and let them decide where to take it from there. If the OP's wife is interested in keeping her PR at all and the OP is and/or was abusive that is something that his wife would take up with CIC while trying to keep her PR.
 

david1697

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Alurra71 said:
I have no idea why you are even alluding to potential abuse here. The OP asked if it is a violation of Condition 51 if his wife does not live with him. The simple answer is yes. He should report the marital breakdown, regardless of the reasons, to CIC and let them decide where to take it from there. If the OP's wife is interested in keeping her PR at all and the OP is and/or was abusive that is something that his wife would take up with CIC while trying to keep her PR.
I went to CIC page re: conditional PR and restated here what I saw there. One of the points CIC makes is that sometimes people get in abusive relationships and victim is one with conditional PR.
If you disagree with this statement or if you don't want it to be mentioned in the context of answering to questions such as one asked by OP, then may be you should take it to CIC and ask them "why they allude" to it on their page dedicated to conditional per residency.

All the best to everyone.
 

Alurra71

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28-11-2013
LANDED..........
19-12-2013
david1697 said:
I went to CIC page re: conditional PR and restated here what I saw there. One of the points CIC makes is that sometimes people get in abusive relationships and victim is one with conditional PR.
If you disagree with this statement or if you don't want it to be mentioned in the context of answering to questions such as one asked by OP, then may be you should take it to CIC and ask them "why they allude" to it on their page dedicated to conditional per residency.

All the best to everyone.
The OP asked, was he in violation of condition 51. The answer is yes. They are in violation of Condition 51. OP reports violation. CIC decides whether or not they want to pursue it. If they do, then the OP's wife can file for an exclusion to Condition 51 based on abuse (if this is the case in this situation).

My reply to you was not meant to be personal, and my apologies if it felt that I was making it personal. I simply wanted to point out that the reasons why condition 51 were being violated is irrelevant for this particular poster is all. If this was his wife that were asking then the information is certainly pertinent to her.
 

david1697

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No problem at all, I just explained the reason I mentioned it. Since it's part of CIC page on conditional PR.

I personally avoid giving any legal advise to anyone, so anything I may have posted is just my individual understanding (as a layman) of the question asked and my understanding of what CIC states in this regard.

As to strict interpretation of violation of Condition 51, I am not in a position to dispute it (I am not a lawyer and have very basic understanding of Canadian imm. law), but if I was to just contemplate: what if they have a genuine relationship and had an ordinary disagreement ,which can happen in all families , foreign or not, and what if 2 weeks from now or a month from now they reconcile and decide to live together for the rest of their lives? Would mere temporary disagreement during an ongoing relationship qualify as breach of C51? May be it would, I don't know Canadian laws well, but I am not sure if it is so.

OP should seek a professional counsel and advise.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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chs2yyc said:
My wife left our residence 2 1/2 weeks ago and has not come back. We have a 5 month old son. She is a PR with the condition of cohabitating together.

We still talk and were trying to work things out and are at an impasse and it's going to probably fail.

I have been giving her money and she uses my car. Obviously and she knows and acknowledges it that I can't pay rent somewhere else. But am still making sure she has food etc

But in the meantime as we live apart, does this mean we are not cohabitating together and would be a violation of her conditional PR?
There is not enough information for anyone to offer a definitive conclusion as to whether your spouse is a PR in violation of the condition of cohabitating together. (Thus, I obviously disagree with the observation by Alurra71 that the "answer is yes," since I don't think there is enough information to conclude that.)

You categorically state that "she is a PR with the condition of cohabitating together," but frankly that is a conclusion dependent on the particular facts of a given case. Even if that condition was placed on her at the time of landing, whether or not it continues to be a condition depends on the particular facts of the case, and that inherently includes the circumstances attendant the breakdown in the relationship.

The condition itself: While the basic premise of the condition requires a sponsored partner to cohabitate in a legitimate relationship with the sponsoring partner for two years from the day the sponsored person landed and became a PR (noting that the condition only applies to PR applications made after October 24, 2012) the condition ceases to apply in an instance where there is evidence of abuse or neglect by the sponsor, or of a failure to protect from abuse or neglect by a person related to the sponsor.

The threshold for this termination of the condition is low. And, without judging whether or not there is such evidence here (note, the threshold is not that there has been abuse or neglect, only that there is evidence of such), given that this query is made by the sponsor, a sponsor expressing concern about the financial implications of separation, is enough to raise the question.

That is, it is enough to raise the question: "why does the sponsor ask?"

Is it out of concern for the sponsor's partner?

Is it because the sponsor believes the sponsored partner was deceptive, and entered the relationship for the purpose of obtaining PR status? (Marriage of convenience.)

Or is the reason for the question rooted in wondering if the sponsor can take action which will result in the termination of the sponsored partner's PR status?

It makes a difference. The first of these seems unlikely. There is nothing indicated in the OP's post suggesting the second, and on the contrary this appears to be what was previously, prior to whatever precipitated the breakdown, a settled, genuine relationship. Given the conjunction of concern about the financial implications of this breakdown, with the fact that it is the sponsor asking the question, the third reason looms as at least the potential reason for the question.

Again, I am not judging the situation. I am only pointing out that the question itself, including the manner in which it was asked, raises this question. And thus, the questions posed by david1697 are not just on point, but are important.


The explicit purpose of the condition is NOT to impose a strict two year minimum stable relationship requirement.

In this regard, it is worth reviewing the backgrounder information about the condition published by CIC:

-- Backgrounder — Conditional Permanent Resident Status

and

-- Backgrounder — Exceptions from Conditional Permanent Residence for Victims of Abuse or Neglect

The objective of the condition is to give CIC tools to deal with the [perceived] problem of marriages of convenience.

It is not CIC's objective to punish sponsored PRs for failing to sustain the relationship for at least two years (although it does impose the risk of the relationship failing on the sponsored PR).

In large part, what the condition does is create a presumption that if the marriage relationship is terminated (and no longer cohabitating constitutes termination of the relationship) less than two years after the sponsored PR landed, and became a PR, the relationship was not genuine and thus the sponsored partner's PR status is terminated. Additionally, a sponsored PR bears the risk that a relationship might fail (for whatever reason, other than death, and so long as there is no evidence of abuse or neglect) in less than two years, resulting in termination (divorce or ceasing to cohabitate) which would likewise result in a failure to meet the condition and loss of PR status.

CIC thus has the means to target two categories of what CIC perceives to be an abuse of the sponsored partner PR process:

-- those couples who pretended to be in a genuine relationship, to facilitate the obtaining of status for the sponsored person (motives vary, from tit-for-tat family/friend arrangements, in order to get extended family members PR status, to an outright money motive, money paid to facilitate obtaining PR status); if CIC learns a couple is not actually cohabitating shortly after the sponsored person arrives in Canada, CIC has the condition it can enforce, and does not need to prove there was actual fraud of this sort or even an actual marriage of convenience.

-- the sponsored partner did not enter the relationship in good faith, but was using the relationship only to gain PR status; the victimized sponsor, in this situation, only needs to notify CIC that the sponsored partner soon left the relationship after arriving in Canada, and again CIC does not need to prove that the sponsored partner's reason for entering the relationship was to obtain PR status.

If there was some suggestion in the OP's query that the OP was the victim of a marriage of convenience, that would explain why the question is being asked. The absence of this, in contrast to the obvious concern about financial consequences, at least raises the question.

There is a strong argument to be made that if a sponsoring spouse reminds the sponsored spouse that a failure to reconcile and continue to cohabitate can result in the loss of PR status, that is evidence of abuse. The implication is all too obvious: concede or I will have your PR status taken away. Combine that with an implication that, as a result, a very young child will be deprived of ready access to one of the child's parents (even if that is not about depriving the sponsored parent access, but about withholding the child's ready access to the sponsoring parent -- every good parent knows that no matter how much apart the parents become, the child's best interest is to have both parents involved in the child's life), there should be little doubt as to the threatening nature of this, which would be textbook abuse.

This is way, way too common to simply overlook when the sort of question raised here is made. Again, I say this without making any judgment as to whether there is any evidence of such abuse here. But it is also not clear whether there is or isn't an implicit threat here.


Which leads to the post by eileenf.

Alurra71 said:
I don't want to have an argument regarding what the OP should or shouldn't do, but what I don't like is when statements like this are thrown out there. The OP asked if it was a violation of Condition 51 if his wife is no longer living with him. The short answer, is yes, it is a violation.
The above quote was in response to this:

eileenf said:
Please contact a settlement worker or an immigration lawyer first!
The suggestion by eileenf appropriately reflects no judgment but highlights the importance of considering the impact on the young child involved and that, in these matters, the advice of a settlement worker or an immigration lawyer is highly advisable, for many reasons, including interjecting an objective perspective into weighing a person's options.

And this suggestion was particular appropriate given that the OP is explicitly asking what the OP "should do?" (See topic title after all.) Consult with a settlement worker or lawyer is about as good an answer as anyone can offer.

In contrast, the fact that this query was so focused on the potential negative impact on the (at least temporarily) estranged spouse, and really is not at all about the OP's own status . . . except perhaps the OP's potential liability for support . . . or about the child's status, suggests that the observations posted by david1697 were indeed appropriate.
 

eileenf

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Apr 25, 2013
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Alurra71 said:
Think about what is best for you.
There is an infant. And the child's interests should be of paramount importance (in a perfect world) to both the parents and the law.

This is a time to make sure that someone is getting the best advice possible (lawyer, settlement worker), so one can assure that they are both complying with the law and prioritizing the interests of their child.

I am giving the OP the benefit of the doubt which may or may not be justified (as Dpenabill aptly points out, wariness is not unreasonable).

Hundreds of people read these posts, so answers are not just for the OPs. Any discussion of Condition 51 bears mentioning of the abuse exception (physical, emotional, financial, sexual, spouse or spouse's family members). It is also important to point out that the abuse does not have to be legally actionable in order to qualify for an exception. Any abused spouse on conditional PR would be wise to contact a settlement worker first for advice and help in navigating the abuse exception.
 

chs2yyc

Star Member
Apr 24, 2012
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dpenabill said:
There is not enough information for anyone to offer a definitive conclusion as to whether your spouse is a PR in violation of the condition of cohabitating together. (Thus, I obviously disagree with the observation by Alurra71 that the "answer is yes," since I don't think there is enough information to conclude that.)

You categorically state that "she is a PR with the condition of cohabitating together," but frankly that is a conclusion dependent on the particular facts of a given case. Even if that condition was placed on her at the time of landing, whether or not it continues to be a condition depends on the particular facts of the case, and that inherently includes the circumstances attendant the breakdown in the relationship.

The condition itself: While the basic premise of the condition requires a sponsored partner to cohabitate in a legitimate relationship with the sponsoring partner for two years from the day the sponsored person landed and became a PR (noting that the condition only applies to PR applications made after October 24, 2012) the condition ceases to apply in an instance where there is evidence of abuse or neglect by the sponsor, or of a failure to protect from abuse or neglect by a person related to the sponsor.

The threshold for this termination of the condition is low. And, without judging whether or not there is such evidence here (note, the threshold is not that there has been abuse or neglect, only that there is evidence of such), given that this query is made by the sponsor, a sponsor expressing concern about the financial implications of separation, is enough to raise the question.

That is, it is enough to raise the question: "why does the sponsor ask?"

Is it out of concern for the sponsor's partner?

Is it because the sponsor believes the sponsored partner was deceptive, and entered the relationship for the purpose of obtaining PR status? (Marriage of convenience.)

Or is the reason for the question rooted in wondering if the sponsor can take action which will result in the termination of the sponsored partner's PR status?

It makes a difference. The first of these seems unlikely. There is nothing indicated in the OP's post suggesting the second, and on the contrary this appears to be what was previously, prior to whatever precipitated the breakdown, a settled, genuine relationship. Given the conjunction of concern about the financial implications of this breakdown, with the fact that it is the sponsor asking the question, the third reason looms as at least the potential reason for the question.

Again, I am not judging the situation. I am only pointing out that the question itself, including the manner in which it was asked, raises this question. And thus, the questions posed by david1697 are not just on point, but are important.


The explicit purpose of the condition is NOT to impose a strict two year minimum stable relationship requirement.

In this regard, it is worth reviewing the backgrounder information about the condition published by CIC:

-- Backgrounder — Conditional Permanent Resident Status

and

-- Backgrounder — Exceptions from Conditional Permanent Residence for Victims of Abuse or Neglect

The objective of the condition is to give CIC tools to deal with the [perceived] problem of marriages of convenience.

It is not CIC's objective to punish sponsored PRs for failing to sustain the relationship for at least two years (although it does impose the risk of the relationship failing on the sponsored PR).

In large part, what the condition does is create a presumption that if the marriage relationship is terminated (and no longer cohabitating constitutes termination of the relationship) less than two years after the sponsored PR landed, and became a PR, the relationship was not genuine and thus the sponsored partner's PR status is terminated. Additionally, a sponsored PR bears the risk that a relationship might fail (for whatever reason, other than death, and so long as there is no evidence of abuse or neglect) in less than two years, resulting in termination (divorce or ceasing to cohabitate) which would likewise result in a failure to meet the condition and loss of PR status.

CIC thus has the means to target two categories of what CIC perceives to be an abuse of the sponsored partner PR process:

-- those couples who pretended to be in a genuine relationship, to facilitate the obtaining of status for the sponsored person (motives vary, from tit-for-tat family/friend arrangements, in order to get extended family members PR status, to an outright money motive, money paid to facilitate obtaining PR status); if CIC learns a couple is not actually cohabitating shortly after the sponsored person arrives in Canada, CIC has the condition it can enforce, and does not need to prove there was actual fraud of this sort or even an actual marriage of convenience.

-- the sponsored partner did not enter the relationship in good faith, but was using the relationship only to gain PR status; the victimized sponsor, in this situation, only needs to notify CIC that the sponsored partner soon left the relationship after arriving in Canada, and again CIC does not need to prove that the sponsored partner's reason for entering the relationship was to obtain PR status.

If there was some suggestion in the OP's query that the OP was the victim of a marriage of convenience, that would explain why the question is being asked. The absence of this, in contrast to the obvious concern about financial consequences, at least raises the question.

There is a strong argument to be made that if a sponsoring spouse reminds the sponsored spouse that a failure to reconcile and continue to cohabitate can result in the loss of PR status, that is evidence of abuse. The implication is all too obvious: concede or I will have your PR status taken away. Combine that with an implication that, as a result, a very young child will be deprived of ready access to one of the child's parents (even if that is not about depriving the sponsored parent access, but about withholding the child's ready access to the sponsoring parent -- every good parent knows that no matter how much apart the parents become, the child's best interest is to have both parents involved in the child's life), there should be little doubt as to the threatening nature of this, which would be textbook abuse.

This is way, way too common to simply overlook when the sort of question raised here is made. Again, I say this without making any judgment as to whether there is any evidence of such abuse here. But it is also not clear whether there is or isn't an implicit threat here.


Which leads to the post by eileenf.
The above quote was in response to this:

The suggestion by eileenf appropriately reflects no judgment but highlights the importance of considering the impact on the young child involved and that, in these matters, the advice of a settlement worker or an immigration lawyer is highly advisable, for many reasons, including interjecting an objective perspective into weighing a person's options.

And this suggestion was particular appropriate given that the OP is explicitly asking what the OP "should do?" (See topic title after all.) Consult with a settlement worker or lawyer is about as good an answer as anyone can offer.

In contrast, the fact that this query was so focused on the potential negative impact on the (at least temporarily) estranged spouse, and really is not at all about the OP's own status . . . except perhaps the OP's potential liability for support . . . or about the child's status, suggests that the observations posted by david1697 were indeed appropriate.


Just FYI, you keep wondering why I am asking this question - I ask because I want to abide by the law, and I don't want to risk my wife's PR status. I want to work it all out, but I don't want to risk her losing her PR. That's it, not because of anything else.
 

chs2yyc

Star Member
Apr 24, 2012
90
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For everyone who keeps asking...the reason I asked the question is because I want to abide by the law, and I don't want to risk my wife's PR status. I want to work it all out, but I don't want to risk her losing her PR. That's it, not because of anything else.

I am just looking for more information on what the conditions mean. And I am in a tight spot because I want to work things out but if she is violating her condition, then what do I do, lie to immigration?
 

chs2yyc

Star Member
Apr 24, 2012
90
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Another reason I ask - my wife doesn't want to live together while we work it out, which I am okay with, BUT I just want to make sure we don't violate any rules and get in trouble.