If a Canadian citizen's children are born abroad, how many can become Canadians?

[fandv]

Hi people...

I am really confused about something. I'm a Canadian citizen. This year I am going to marry an Indonesian woman. After the wedding, we will live in Indonesia for a while. There is a great possibility that our future children will be born in Indonesia. I used to wonder whether my children can become Canadians (since I am), and I found out that the answer is yes, they can become Canadians, after reading this from CIC's website:

Until the changes came into effect , Canadians could pass on their citizenship to endless generations born outside Canada.

To protect the value of Canadian citizenship , the law limits – with a few exceptions – citizenship by descent to one generation born outside Canada.

On April 17, 2009, parents' ability to pass on their citizenship to children born or adopted outside Canada changed.

The limit means that children born outside Canada to a Canadian parent will be Canadian at birth if:

* one parent was born in Canada, or
* one parent became a Canadian citizen by immigrating to Canada and was later granted citizenship through the regular citizenship grant process (also called naturalization).

However, I then found this from Wikipedia:

In a scenario, the new rules would apply like this: A child is born in Brazil in 2005 (before the new rules came in effect) to a Canadian citizen father, who himself is a born abroad citizen by descent, and a Brazilian mother who is only a Permanent Resident of Canada. Child automatically becomes a Canadian citizen through a simple application process. Another child born after April 17, 2009 in the same scenario would not be considered a Canadian citizen. The child is considered born past "first generation limitation" and the parents (the father) would have to sponsor the child to Canada to become a Permanent Resident, (a lengthy process which may take from one to four years even though the child has four other siblings who are Canadian citizens by the same parents. Once the Permanent Residency is granted, a Canadian parent can apply for Canadian citizenship on behalf of the child, without the required three-year-residency rule, however.

So as you can see in the above scenario, the first child of the Canadian can become a Canadian, whereas the second child can't, since he/she was born past the "first generation limitation" rule, defined by the new citizenship act.

But wait a minute....I thought "first generation" means ALL children belonging to any 2 given parents?

When I have children later, either 1 child, or 2, or 3, or however many, won't ALL of them be the "first generation"?? Then their children (which are my grandchildren) will be my second generation, right?

In essence, my biggest question is: if later on I have, say, 3 children, and all are born in Indonesia, can all 3 kids become Canadians? Or, only the FIRST child can? Could you guys clarify please?

 

[CharlieD10]

I think you missed something. The second scenario applies in a case where the Canadian citizen parent of the child born abroad was himself born abroad to Canadian citizen parents. This person has 2 children, one born before the rule change in 2009, and one born after. In a case like that, the parent was able to pass his citizenship on to his first child but not his second because in between their births there was a change of rules on whether he could pass it on.

In your case, as a naturalized citizen (I take it that's what you are?), so long as your children are born after you gained citizenship, ALL of them born abroad may inherit your citizenship, as they represent the first generation in your family to be born abroad. However, your children CANNOT pass Canadian citizenship to any of your grandchildren (the second generation) if these children are born abroad.

 

[Fencesitter]

^ Yes. That's what it states in the letter that came with my son's Citizenship Certificate. So the OP is fine, but his/her children's children will not be automatically granted citizenship.

Stupid rule...really stupid...and hopefully if the liberals regain power, they will reform it...

FS

 

[fandv]

Thanks for the replies, CharlieD10 and Fencesitter .

Yes, I'm a naturalised Canadian citizen. Glad to know that all my future children, no matter how many, can become Canadians, even if born outside Canada.

Now I see why I got confused. When I was reading the Wikipedia example, I was mistakenly assuming that the child who was born after 2009 is the younger sibling of the child born before 2009! If that were true, that means they are both siblings. If they are siblings, that means both are members of the first generation, and therefore the one born after 2009 should be entitled to a Canadian citizenship just like his/her older sibling.

But it looks like the second scenario is a completely different, separate case from the first one... . Now it all makes sense!

^ Yes. That's what it states in the letter that came with my son's Citizenship Certificate.

What's stated in the letter that came with your son's citizenship certificate?

 

[CharlieD10]

Thanks for the replies, CharlieD10 and Fencesitter .

Yes, I'm a naturalised Canadian citizen. Glad to know that all my future children, no matter how many, can become Canadians, even if born outside Canada.

Now I see why I got confused. When I was reading the Wikipedia example, I was mistakenly assuming that the child who was born after 2009 is the younger sibling of the child born before 2009! If that were true, that means they are both siblings. If they are siblings, that means both are members of the first generation, and therefore the one born after 2009 should be entitled to a Canadian citizenship just like his/her older sibling.

But it looks like the second scenario is a completely different, separate case from the first one... . Now it all makes sense!

No, actually you are quite correct, the children in the scenario are siblings born to the same parent. And this DID happen to people. One child, born before 2009, inherited their parent's citizenship, but a second child born after 2009 was not able to inherit it and had to be sponsored for PR because the same parent was no longer allowed to pass on his citizenship as he was born abroad himself.

Prior to the rule change, Canadian citizenship could be inherited for generations. Apparently, the government became concerned when it appeared as though there was an entire generation of Canadians growing up who had never set foot in Canada, but had all the same rights and privileges as children born to parents in Canada. They felt that the value of Canadian citizenship was being diluted by these "Canadians of convenience" and instituted the change in the law. (Note, I am just paraphrasing what I read on the issue, not expressing any opinion for or against the rule change or the reasons given for it.)

 

[Fencesitter]

Basically it said that because my son was born outside of Canada, if he has children of his own who are also born outside of Canada, the children will not be able to gain citizenship automatically and will need to be sponsored for PR and then gain citizenship like all other PRs.

I understand the rule change, and I actually agree with it...to a certain degree. The thing I don't like about these rule changes is that it punishes everyone.

People who take advantage of our system should be rounded up and sent packing.

Before I even thought of sponsoring my wife to Canada, I never dreamed that I would need to go through so much to prove our marriage is legitimate. I thought, perhaps being naive, that all I would need to do is provide our marriage license and some history of our relationship. Sending 160 pics, all the notarized documents, the copies of rental contracts, health insurance cards, etc...etc...is really annoying. Not only that, but then the long waiting...and for what? Our marriage is real...we have a son...we've been together for years...why should we need to wait so long? Shouldn't a case that is obviously real be processed very quickly...ahead of cases where there might be concerns of genuineness?

I was just talking to my wife about this and she thinks she knows the process. If the marriage is obviously real and there are children involved, those apps go in the 'fast' processing queue...if the case is not straightforward, those cases get pushed back and thus the waiting time is long. Is my wife correct? Is this how they might do it? It seems as though it may be true because we know of several cases very similar to ours where the VO processed the visa in about 3-4 months after receiving the file from CPC-M (through the Hong Kong VO with an average time of 19 months).

The waiting is not really a big deal because we are together...but I really hate my job and want to resign, but I can't do that now because we want to keep saving...every single day is a HUGE struggle...

FS

 

[farhan398]

Guys, i need some understanding. my wife is canadian and she delivered first child in Canada so first one become canadian straight away, however due to my job, she moved to Singapore and delivered second child and then we only came to know about this rule. Anyway i have applied for my second child and they said it will take 1 year to access the status of my second child.

I am confused.. I just want to check that my wife got PR through her parents but she stayed almost 6 years in Canada and studied there.. when she was 20, she applied for Citizenship and went through test and naturalization process. I understand that if you become citizen after age of 18 years and went through the process of naturalization, you consider as first generation, i read under ehow.com website about this in "facts_6820852_citizenship-immigration-canada.html". please guide me if my understanding is correct.

 

[CharlieD10]

Guys, i need some understanding. my wife is canadian and she delivered first child in Canada so first one become canadian straight away, however due to my job, she moved to Singapore and delivered second child and then we only came to know about this rule. Anyway i have applied for my second child and they said it will take 1 year to access the status of my second child.

I am confused.. I just want to check that my wife got PR through her parents but she stayed almost 6 years in Canada and studied there.. when she was 20, she applied for Citizenship and went through test and naturalization process. I understand that if you become citizen after age of 18 years and went through the process of naturalization, you consider as first generation, i read under ehow.com website about this in "facts_6820852_citizenship-immigration-canada.html". please guide me if my understanding is correct.

Yes, your understanding is correct and your wife may pass her citizenship on to her children, no matter where they were born. The one year wait for your second child's citizenship is normal, not as a result of any questions regarding the child's eligibility for citizenship.

 

[farhan398]

Yes, your understanding is correct and your wife may pass her citizenship on to her children, no matter where they were born. The one year wait for your second child's citizenship is normal, not as a result of any questions regarding the child's eligibility for citizenship.

Charlie, Thanks for the help

 

[elipomerleau]

I'm a Canadian, my wife is Chinese and our baby was born last week in china. I already know it qualifies to be Canadian. But we aren't planning on returning to Canada in the foreseeable future. My question is, if we apply for Chinese citizenship for the baby, then wish to move to Canada in a couple of years, will we need to go through the dreadfully difficult application for canadian citizenship since would be recognized as a Chinese citizen?

We want it Chinese now simply because it makes all of the babies legal matters much easier while we live in china.

Thanks for your help!

 

[truesmile]

The second scenario applies in a case where the Canadian citizen parent of the child born abroad was himself born abroad to Canadian citizen parents. This person has 2 children, one born before the rule change in 2009, and one born after. In a case like that, the parent was able to pass his citizenship on to his first child but not his second because in between their births there was a change of rules on whether he could pass it on.

In your case, as a naturalized citizen (I take it that's what you are?), so long as your children are born after you gained citizenship, ALL of them born abroad may inherit your citizenship, as they represent the first generation in your family to be born abroad. However, your children CANNOT pass Canadian citizenship to any of your grandchildren (the second generation) if these children are born abroad.

Sorry, I must have missed something. If the OP was born abroad i.e. "naturalized", how is it that his children are exempt from the 'first generation' rule?? The way I read it, they are not.

 

[fandv]

Sorry, I must have missed something. If the OP was born abroad i.e. "naturalized", how is it that his children are exempt from the 'first generation' rule?? The way I read it, they are not.

Hi truesmile,

According to the CIC themselves:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp (click the 4th link "Understanding the first generation limitation")

After April 2009, Canadian parents can only pass citizenship to their children born outside of Canada if at least one parent:

was born in Canada

or

is a naturalized Canadian citizen



So yeah, while it's true that I wasn't born in Canada, the fact is I am a naturalised Canadian citizen, which means that if my (future) children are born outside Canada, they WILL still be Canadians...

 

[mameelynn]

Hi truesmile,

According to the CIC themselves:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp (click the 4th link "Understanding the first generation limitation")

After April 2009, Canadian parents can only pass citizenship to their children born outside of Canada if at least one parent:

was born in Canada

or

is a naturalized Canadian citizen



So yeah, while it's true that I wasn't born in Canada, the fact is I am a naturalised Canadian citizen, which means that if my (future) children are born outside Canada, they WILL still be Canadians...

Yeah we have three children that were born in the US but only two of them will be able to pass on their Canadian Citizenship if they move and marry someone not Canadian due to the fact that our youngest was born after April 2009. It doesn't seem fair to me that we all will be moving to Canada this year and if our daughter someday marries someone in the US and has kids in the US they won't get the same rights as our son's children will and any more children we have once we move to Canada even though all of our children will be duel citizens!

 

[truesmile]

Hi truesmile,

According to the CIC themselves:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp (click the 4th link "Understanding the first generation limitation")

After April 2009, Canadian parents can only pass citizenship to their children born outside of Canada if at least one parent:

was born in Canada

or

is a naturalized Canadian citizen



So yeah, while it's true that I wasn't born in Canada, the fact is I am a naturalised Canadian citizen, which means that if my (future) children are born outside Canada, they WILL still be Canadians...

Ah, I see. I oversimplified the my undertanding of word 'naturalized'. So your children, while citizens, will not be 'naturalized citizens', otherwise the endless passing of the torch (Citizenship) still would never end. Wonder what the term for that is? If there is one.

 

[fandv]

Yeah we have three children that were born in the US but only two of them will be able to pass on their Canadian Citizenship if they move and marry someone not Canadian due to the fact that our youngest was born after April 2009. It doesn't seem fair to me that we all will be moving to Canada this year and if our daughter someday marries someone in the US and has kids in the US they won't get the same rights as our son's children will and any more children we have once we move to Canada even though all of our children will be duel citizens!

Hi mameelynn...

According to the CIC's website:

http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/citizenship/rules_2009.asp

Who did not become a citizen after the changes?
People did not become citizens after the changes include those who:

* did not become citizens when the first Citizenship Act took effect on January 1, 1947;
* were born in Canada but are not citizens because when they were born, one of their parents was a foreign diplomat and neither parent was a permanent resident or citizen of Canada;
* renounced their citizenship as adults with the Canadian government;
* had their citizenship revoked by the government because it was obtained by fraud;
* were born outside Canada to a Canadian parent, who are not already citizens or who lost their citizenship in the past, and who were born in the second or next generation abroad (this includes people who failed to retain citizenship).



I might be wrong, but according to the above statements (especially the ones I bolded in red), I believe whether or not someone will become a Canadian is determined by whether he/she was born before or after April 2009, NOT whether one of his parents was born before or after 2009? In other words, the April 2009 cut off doesn't determine someone's ability to pass on Canadian citizenship....but rather, it determines someones eligibility to acquire Canadian citizenship at birth. Note that the last clause begins with the word "born"...meaning, when the person was born, not when the parents were born (which means, it doesn't matter whether the parents were born before or after April 2009).

Let's say your children are:

A (born before April 2009)
B (born before April 2009)
C (born after April 2009)

If A's and B's children are born outside of Canada, then their children (i.e: your grandchildren from A and B) won't become Canadian citizens at birth, even though A and B were born before April 2009. Why? Because the fact is, A and B were born outside of Canada, which means that their children will be the second generation who were born abroad, thus not eligible to get Canadian citizenship at birth.

To summarise, I believe the only way your grandchildren (either A's, B's, or C's kids) can become Canadian citizens at birth is if they are born in Canada...

Again, I might be wrong.....the more senior members can probably advise better...


Edit:

Looks like I found something else that may confuse you even more ;D


After April 2009, Canadian parents can only pass citizenship to their children born outside of Canada if at least one parent:

was born in Canada
is a naturalized Canadian citizen


So here's the catch! What if A's and B's children are born outside of Canada, but their spouse was either born in Canada, or a naturalised Canadian citizen...!! I wonder if A and B's children will then become Canadians at birth! I'm very curious to know the answer...so again, the more senior and experienced members can probably advise better ;D

The thing is, in this hypothetical situation, we are dealing with 2 things, and I am not sure which one is stronger/takes precedence:

A. The fact that your grandchildren will be the second generation who were born abroad
B. The possibility of A's, B's, or C's spouse being born in Canada or being a naturalized Canadian.

Now I'm really curious too... =P