IEC + Partner sponship/OWP -> Implied status: to work or not to work?

[renoreaper]

First off, thanks for all the links! These definitely look like they contain a lot of useful information and I will be reading them in greater detail tonight after I get off work!

On a different note, if you did an OUTLAND application it would go through Paris visa office. I believe they are very quick (check the Paris thread) and you could have your whole PR completed in a fraction of the 2+ years time it will take you sitting around waiting around for inland processing. If you did apply outland, you would then need to extend your visitor status here in order to stay (which should be pretty easy).

The outland processing time would be 89 days for step one approval and then another 8 months for step 2 for Paris. So a total of 11 months vs 25 months for inland, the thing is that with inland and the OWP pilot program I would be able to start working in Canada by early May hopefully (given that I sent in my application end of December). This greatly influenced our decision, as sitting around for several months without being able to work was really not very good for me (+ it means we can keep on saving to buy our own place).

An experienced CBSA officer should know about this. Perhaps an inexperienced one won't know. Again that's the problem though, there is no "definitive" answer as you are just getting someone's opinion based on their interpretation of the rules. CIC should really just have a manual dedicated to implied status and list everything it does and doesn't cover... but until they do that there won't be any definitive answer you can trust.

I figure it might still be worth asking, like I said I want to be 100% sure (I'm at about 99.8% right now I'd say )

The correspondence about international youth exchange programs is pretty definitive evidence to me, but even with that people still continue to think working on expired IEC is ok, so I guess it's not definitive enough.

These posts all do seem quite definitive, it's just the lack of (or incorrect) documentation via "official" channels that is bugging me...

 

[Rob_TO]

The outland processing time would be 89 days for step one approval and then another 8 months for step 2 for Paris. So a total of 11 months vs 25 months for inland,

Keep in mind the posted times for outland visa offices, are NOT averages. They are worst case times for 80% of apps, meaning 80% of apps through Paris are done in a maximum of 8 months, but most are quicker. Reading some posts on Paris office, seems many people are seeing times in the 5-6 months range for processing there.

the thing is that with inland and the OWP pilot program I would be able to start working in Canada by early May hopefully (given that I sent in my application end of December). This greatly influenced our decision, as sitting around for several months without being able to work was really not very good for me (+ it means we can keep on saving to buy our own place).

Yes the new pilot program makes inland much more enticing. However just keep in mind what I said about relying on the "4 months" quote from CIC to get your OWP. Since CPC-Mississauga doesn't process OWPs, I am not sure if that 4 months time starts from when CPC-M gets your PR/OWP app, or from when they send the OWP to CPC-Vegreviile for processing. Hopefully this all just means 4 months from when you first submit the PR app, but we won't know for sure until people actually start getting their OWPs that applied after the pilot program was announced.

Anyways as you've already applied inland, i guess it's a moot point now about outland details.

If more people will suddenly be applying inland also to take advantage of quicker OWP, I can see inland processing times in general increasing over the next year, as opposed to being reduced. Unless the government steps in to fix whatever the problem is to get processing times back to where they used to be.

 

[renoreaper]

However just keep in mind what I said about relying on the "4 months" quote from CIC to get your OWP. Since CPC-Mississauga doesn't process OWPs, I am not sure if that 4 months time starts from when CPC-M gets your PR/OWP app, or from when they send the OWP to CPC-Vegreviile for processing. Hopefully this all just means 4 months from when you first submit the PR app, but we won't know for sure until people actually start getting their OWPs that applied after the pilot program was announced.

I was also wondering if it was since time of opening or since time of start of processing, the call centre agent I talked to said it was 4 months as of when the application is received (though once again I know this is not necessarily a reliable resource, it might give some indication).

 

[RajaJi]

An application is considered received as noted below
Source: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/cit/admin/general/accept.asp

Determining the date the application is received

The Minister receives the application when the application is
•received in person or by mail at the CPC-S;
•received and date-stamped at a CIC office;
•received by a consular official acting on behalf of CIC at overseas missions.


How long will it take to process OWP under One Year Pilot for SCLPC?
Source: http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/tools/updates/2014/2014-12-22.asp

CIC will begin issuing open work permits to eligible applicants in the current SCLPC inventory. SCLPC applicants whose permanent resident applications are received after December 22, 2014 will have their application for an open work permit processed within four months of receipt of their work permit application

Keep in mind though, CIC is not known for processing applications within a specific and stated timeframe.

 

[renoreaper]

An application is considered received as noted below

Determining the date the application is received

The Minister receives the application when the application is
•received in person or by mail at the CPC-S;
•received and date-stamped at a CIC office;
•received by a consular official acting on behalf of CIC at overseas missions.


How long will it take to process OWP under One Year Pilot for SCLPC?

CIC will begin issuing open work permits to eligible applicants in the current SCLPC inventory. SCLPC applicants whose permanent resident applications are received after December 22, 2014 will have their application for an open work permit processed within four months of receipt of their work permit application

Keep in mind though, CIC is not known for processing applications within a specific and stated timeframe.

The application was delivered to the processing centre in Missauga by courier (have a delivery receipt) on December 24th I believe. We tried to deliver it in person the 23rd but this was not possible...

Anyhow going by the description you posted I think this would mean it was considered "received" the 24th. (I hope so!)

As for the whole implied status I'm probably still going to drive out to a CBSA or call one of the border crossing as a final measure, who knows I might even be able to personally obtain an official piece of information on this (I highly doubt it). At this point I'm pretty sure that the implied working status would not apply for me, but there's no harm in an extra check I suppose (plus it might help me explain the situation to my employer, generally speaking "I read it on an internet forum" isn't the best argument )

 

[RajaJi]

IMO, it is absolutely certain (for the reason that IEC's can not be extended) that there is no Implied Status for IEC's which allows IEC Visa/permit holders to work beyond authorization. I doubt if an agent at border will give you anything in writting.

 

[RajaJi]

The changes to International Mobility Program. These changes may benefit foreign nationals working in Canada on an IEC:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/notices/2015-02-09.asp

I started a new topic with the information from above link. Link to the topic is noted below:

http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/international-mobility-program-changes-does-it-benefit-iecs-t269900.0.html

 

[renoreaper]

IMO, it is absolutely certain (for the reason that IEC's can not be extended) that there is no Implied Status for IEC's which allows IEC Visa/permit holders to work beyond authorization. I doubt if an agent at border will give you anything in writting.

I had another call with a CIC call centre agent today to try and find out of if there was any other documentation they could provide on the matter or if they could refer me to another person who could offer definitive information.

During this call I once again explained my situation and also explained to the call centre agent that I had received previous confirmation from the call centre, but that I was inclined not to trust it based on some of the extracts of correspondence between immigration officers and applicants (and some of the additional information and statements on this forum).

He then went and verified this for me once more, and once again told me that I will have implied status and that I can keep working. Still not believing him, I went on to describe my reasoning as to why I should stop working (i.e. that the IEC work permit cannot be extended). He refuted this argument saying that, while this is the case between extensions of IEC WHV permits, this does not apply to this scenario. I think I also presented him with one or two more arguments as to why I thought implied status would not apply to me, and he refuted all of them in a logical manner. It seemed like a pretty experienced CIC call centre agent to me, but obviously this is just an impression and does not count for anything. (Oh ye, I also mentioned stories of people who got turned away at the border and so on due to assumed implied status under IEC, but he assured me on this as well, and told me that I would not have to go to the border to receive my work permit or arrange my landing anyway).

I also spoke to an agent at the border service agency call centre, but she told me that she did not have enough knowledge on the subject. She did say it might be worth driving out to a border and verifying with a more experienced border officer as they did not have access to the same resources and experiences at the border call centre.

 

[RajaJi]

Regulation 186 (u)

186. A foreign national may work in Canada without a work permit

(u) until a decision is made on an application made by them under subsection 201(1), if they have remained in Canada after the expiry of their work permit and they have continued to comply with the conditions set out on the expired work permit, other than the expiry date;


201. (1) A foreign national may apply for the renewal of their work permit if

(a) the application is made before their work permit expires; and

(b) they have complied with all conditions imposed on their entry into Canada

Source: http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/PDF/SOR-2002-227.pdf

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Reading above information, it is my understanding that a foreign national can work beyond the expiry of work permit when an application for the extension/renewal of original work permit has been submitted. IEC's can not be extended/renewed. Thus it is not applicable to that category. IEC,s should stop working beyond authorization.

 

[renoreaper]

Reading above information, it is my understanding that a foreign national can work beyond the expiry of work permit when an application for the extension/renewal of original work permit has been submitted. IEC's can not be extended/renewed. Thus it is not applicable to that category. IEC,s should stop working beyond authorization.

I believe you've already posted this in this thread and I was aware of it at the time of the call, like I said I specifically asked about this and explained the scenario to him. In either case I most likely won't be able to get a definitive answer either way. I'll still try a few more ways to see what comes up however, but this particular agent actually sounded like he knew what he was talking about and I'd rather take his word for it than base it off things I cannot fully verify on the internet. I mean I am convinced that there are scenario's in which IEC won't have an implied status (like when applying for a second year of IEC for certain countries), and I think this may be a partial source of why this is such a confusing topic.

 

[renoreaper]

Quote from: renoreaper on February 08, 2015, 06:02:49 pm
[size=10pt][size=10pt]This makes sense looking at the page you linked, however following that rule you would not be able to get implied status from including an OWP with a PR application at all, since you are applying for a new work permit instead of extending the old one in that case. [/size][/size]

That seems to be a correct understanding. But as with the new Pilot Program you were in status when you submitted your OWP application along with PR application. That should give you an Implied Status to remain (but not work) in Canada. If that does not give you an Implied Status then I think you also need to submit an application to change the conditions of your stay (if your IEC permit is still valid).

Going back to this, I am actually convinced that there is an implied working status via an OWP application included in the PR application (disregarding the fact that this may or may not be the case with IEC). I've read an article specifically on that topic and the fact that that type of application would result in an implied status that allows you to continue working.

 

[RajaJi]

The information I have posted in my previous post is from CIC website and is an extract from the official Regulations

 

[RajaJi]

It will be good to know a definitive answer on this topic.

 

[renoreaper]

It will be good to know a definitive answer on this topic.

I couldn't agree more, unfortunately it doesn't seem like CIC will be provide any official documentation relating to this specific case any time soon.

 

[Ponga]

When in doubt, it's usually best to `err on the side of caution'.

As difficult as it would be to stop working (temporarily), it's far better than finding out that you were in fact working without authorization...which could have devastating consequences.

I've seen this debate soooo many times around here and still shake my head. Why can't CIC make this crystal clear?!?!