I got judge hearing (any advise) + my case details and Timeline

[mwabu1976]

Hi,

I have a judge hearing next Monday (17-Mar-2014).
Can anybody give me any advice about judge hearings?

I will summarize my case below:

26-Dec-2006: I landed in Montreal. I became landed immigrant. Note: I used to live in Montreal from 1997 to 2003 as international student.
14-Sep-2010: I sent my application for citizenship. I traveled twice for a total of 143 days. As per the CIC calculator and after deducting the travel days I end with physical presence of 1214 days which make me eligible to apply for citizenship.
8-Dec-2010: I received acknowledgment letter for receipt of my application.
27-Oct-2011: I wrote the citizenship test at Montreal. I passed and got full mark.
21-Dec-2011: Request for Residency Questioner (RQ) was requested.
11-Jan-2012: I submitted Residency Questioner (RQ) with all supporting documents (Copy) to CIC Montreal office.
17-Mar-2014: I got scheduled for judge hearing at CIC Montreal office.


Notes:
- I still live in Montreal till today. I did not travel at all except for the 143 days I mentioned earlier.
- I did not live anywhere in Canada except in Montreal. I did not move anywhere out of Montreal.
- I have strong ties to Canada such as Canadian wife (Married since 2004) and two Canadian kids (3 years old and 3 months old kids). Moreover, I got my two engineering degrees from Concordia University in Montreal in 2003 and 2013.
- During my landing or residency time that was mentioned up (from 26-Dec-2006 to 14-Sep-2010) I had 3 passports (Jordanian Passports). However, from 28-Jan-2008 to 24-Mar-2009 I didn’t have a passport. It is not because I didn’t want to, but because the process of issuing passports at Jordanian embassy was taking too much time for people with Palestinian origin like me. After my citizenship test. I explained this to the officer who interviewed me and I told her that I have documents that proves that I have been in Montreal during this time like French courses given by the Quebec Government, my Concordia University records, and even Police tickets. The officer refused to see anything calming that she doesn’t have time for this and decided to give me Residency Questioner (RQ)
- I requested ATIP last Sep-2013. It did show that no action was taken in my application. In fact, I called in 14-Feb-2014 and the CIC call center told me that my application was not yet assigned to an officer to review it.



I know I have done nothing wrong and I’m not worried. I got many documents that prove this. However, I would really appreciate any advices or feedbacks regarding my case or even advices to prepare for the judge hearing.

After my hearing I will update everybody about my case so others can befit from my experience and case.

Thanks in advance.

 

[links18]

Advice: Don't assume the judge will be on your side. Remember, if you have to appeal the judge's decision, it will be an on the record review, so it behooves you to do some planning and preparation.

 

[eileenf]

Sorry to hear about your crazy long timeline. When you ordered your ATIP, did you get GCMS notes only or also your physical files?

 

[rayman_m]

I wonder what makes the case so complicated and refer to to CJ for hearing. Most probably not having the last 4 year passport in possession (from the date of application). However, since you have resided in Canada for over 1095 days and has all other proofs, most likely CJ will be sympathetic to your case unless CJ is not in a mood to consider anything during the hearing..

 

[mwabu1976]

Thanks for the feedback everybody...

eileenf
I got both types of ATIP and both of them did not show any action on my file. In fact, I got the physical files almost 3 weeks ago and they did not show anything is done by any officer to my file except they missed up the order of my documents which I think will make any one have hard time reviewing my documents.

rayman_m
I only did not have passport for almost one year only. I just don't understand why they make big deal of this one year when I already lived in Canada for almost 14 years in total ??

 

[rayman_m]

It could be the CO who was anticipating to see passport covering 4 years as they normally do for all applicant and when you could not produce for last 1 year, CO might had limited authority to recommend CJ to approve the file (CO might have internal guidelines on missing of key documents like passport/PR card/COPR etc) and referred to CJ.. But you have nothing to worry as you didn't do anything wrong or violated law. I think once you will explain the reason for not having the passport to the CJ, hearing will be in your favor..

 

[Msafiri]

mwabu1976,

Do you have any official and/or independent source detailing the difficulty of Palestinian nationals being issued Jordanian passports even if a print out from the consular section of their embassy in Ottawa or nearest North American office e.g Washington DC. CIC are aware of passport protocols since each country notifies those it has diplomatic relations each time they issue a new passport book as well as the criteria used....heck the CIC visa posts in the ME see those documents on a daily basis!

Taking such a document to the Judge will be beneficial if only to save time in case he/she is minded to grant citizenship but wants to check the veracity of your explanation. It will also come in handy if CIC appeal this...they seem set to take this to the FC.

 

[ramsfe]

umm... ok, Did you work during your qualifying period or you were just a student ? or both ?

Are you a Jordanian citizen or you just hold a temporary Jordanian passport like some of the Palestinian Authority, west bank, citizens ? If you are a Palestinian authority citizen, do you have a Palestinian Authority passport ?

If i am asking all these questions, it is because this whole story is quite complicated to understand for a CIC agent ! There are a lot of variables !

You say that you didn't have a passport during 14 months in the middle of your qualifying period : from 28-Jan-2008 to 24-Mar-2009 , did you declare any travel during this period ?

One last question : The passport that expired, I presume on jan 28 2008, was directly replaced by another one issued on march 24 2009 ? Did the old one get cancelled officially ? Did the Jordanian passports authority write " this passport replaces passport number .." on the new passport ?

Do you have proof that you applied for a passport renewal soon after your passport expired in 2008 ? Usually they give you a slip !

You say that you traveled twice for 143 days, this is almost 3 months every time, right ? Did you give any specific reason for this or you just said "vacations" ?

Sorry for the intrusive nature of my message, i am just trying to reason like a CIC agent would ! Don't forget that they see thousands of cases every day and it is probably not the first time they come across a Palestinian holding a Jordanian passport etc... and as you can imagine, it takes three slightly different versions of the same story to make one look suspicious !

Some Jordanian citizens feel Palestinian and identify themselves as such, some Jordanian citizens hold Palestinian documents, some Palestinians hold Jordanian passports without being Jordanian citizens, some Palestinians hold both Jordanian passports and Palestinian authority passports, and some Jordanian - Palestinian authority double nationals hold both and are fully citizens of both ( even though it is illegal), and also, some Palestinian authority citizens come from the Gaza strip and hold Palestinian Authority passport and in some cases an Egyptian travel document, or a Jordanian Passport with a 3 years validity, some Palestinian refugees hold only Lebanese travel documents or Syrian travel documents... and the saga can go on and on with all sorts of variables that someone coming from a place where you usually hold one single passport and where geopolitics are as clear as ABC, this is really not clear ! And let's face it, some people , sadly, a lot of people used these manipulations in order to Fraud the residency requirement... using one passport to leave Jordan and an other to enter, hiding every trace of frequent travelling between the time they left and the time they qualified for citizenship.

 

[eileenf]

Hi Mwabu1976,
I definitely agree with ramsfe and Msafiri that it would be wise to collect and present any independent verification of the passport issue that you can. When officials are faced with unusual situations they will typically blame the applicant rather than the situation. Though obviously that assumption is not always fair or justified, it's good for the applicant to assume they will be blamed and be prepared to show that they are not to blame. So, you should be prepared to demonstrate that you have done your due diligence and that you aren't hiding something.

Also, I would personally recommend that anyone with a judge's hearing brings a lawyer. If you can't afford a lawyer (let's face it, we don't all have an extra $2000 kicking around), it's a good idea to consult with a settlement worker (free), call legal aid (free or low cost).

Also, absolutely bring your spouse to the hearing. If any of your inlaws can come, that would be great too. You have a distinct advantage in having a Canadian spouse. Having her, and her family standing beside you at the hearing will create a positive impression in the Judge's eyes. Their presence indicates your integration into Canadian society, community and family. Their presence beside you shows your ties to Canada and strongly implies your physical presence here. The judge's hearing is the time to use every advantage you have because the stakes are very high.

About 50% of Judge's hearings result in denials. So the odds are tough. If you have a lawyer, your chances will be improved. If your spouse and in-laws are there, your chances are probably even better. Tell the truth (of course) and use the advantages you've got.

Good luck and let us know how it goes.

p.s. If your wife or her family could take notes, that would be a good idea. Occasionally there are reports of judge's saying or doing weird things. You want a witness and a record in case you need to appeal.

 

[farrous13]

p.s. If your wife or her family could take notes, that would be a good idea. Occasionally there are reports of judge's saying or doing weird things. You want a witness and a record in case you need to appeal.

Any cases relevant to the above?

 

[eileenf]

Any cases relevant to the above?

I can't remember which case it was, but there was a successful appeal of a citizenship denial based on the Judge giving an almost entirely pro forma hearing. Short & cursory with no questions relevant to the issues at hand or the judge's ultimate decision. Thereby the judge denied the applicant the chance to provide evidence and respond to the judge's concerns. He essentially denied the applicant a true hearing. The applicant appealed (this time with a lawyer, there was no lawyer at the hearing) and the appeals judge ruled that, based on the applicant's report of the judge's hearing, the hearing did not meet the principle of natural justice. The appeals judge did note though that there was no independent record of the hearing and he was basing the ruling only the only report provided: the applicant's. The judge failed to provide a report of the hearing.

I assume that if the judge had contradicted the applicant's report, that the Judge would be given the benefit of the doubt (in lieu of other evidence) and the applicant would not have won the appeal.

Long story short: It's good to have a witness. It's good to have notes.

 

[rayman_m]

As the matter is complicated and raises concerns on multiple angle, I think the best option would be hire a lawyer who has experience on CJ hearing with success rate. Though it may cost you some money, but sometime we find no other option is best around us but to take legal help. Even the CJ denies that a lawyer's presence could be advantage if goes to appeal court.

 

[keesio]

Most probably not having the last 4 year passport in possession (from the date of application).

It's this. CIC makes a big deal about wanting to see all valid passports for the last 4 years. Actually for my interview, They wanted to see my old passport even though my current one was over 4 years old. They made a big deal over it.

Most likely the interviewer has a list of stuff they must see (like passports) and if they don't, they just give an RQ because they don't know how to handle cases that don't. The interviewer is for straight forward cases and a judge is for complex ones. It's like the CIC call centre. They are there for basic questions. Anything more advanced and they can't help you.

 

[mwabu1976]

mwabu1976,

Do you have any official and/or independent source detailing the difficulty of Palestinian nationals being issued Jordanian passports even if a print out from the consular section of their embassy in Ottawa or nearest North American office e.g Washington DC. CIC are aware of passport protocols since each country notifies those it has diplomatic relations each time they issue a new passport book as well as the criteria used....heck the CIC visa posts in the ME see those documents on a daily basis!

Taking such a document to the Judge will be beneficial if only to save time in case he/she is minded to grant citizenship but wants to verify the veracity of your explanation. It will also come in handy if CIC appeal this...they seem set to take this to the FC.

Thanks for the advice. I found some resources in the net. I got documents related to this issue from Canada Government, CIA, Human Right Watch, and Oxford University. I will bring them with me to the hearing.

 

[mwabu1976]

umm... ok, Did you work during your qualifying period or you were just a student ? or both ?

I used to receive payments from a professor from Concordia University for my research. Moreover, I'm self employed. Decuments that suport this was included in my RQ. I will bring the originals with me to the JH.

Are you a Jordanian citizen or you just hold a temporary Jordanian passport like some of the Palestinian Authority, west bank, citizens ? If you are a Palestinian authority citizen, do you have a Palestinian Authority passport ?

I got the temporary Jordanian passport only that is usually valid for 2 years.

If i am asking all these questions, it is because this whole story is quite complicated to understand for a CIC agent ! There are a lot of variables !

I agree. However, if my travel records throw Canada Border. then my case will be so simple.

You say that you didn't have a passport during 14 months in the middle of your qualifying period : from 28-Jan-2008 to 24-Mar-2009 , did you declare any travel during this period ?

I did not travel at all since 20-Nov-2007 till today.

One last question : The passport that expired, I presume on jan 28 2008, was directly replaced by another one issued on march 24 2009 ? Did the old one get cancelled officially ? Did the Jordanian passports authority write " this passport replaces passport number .." on the new passport ?

The passport was cancelled. Cancel stamp is all over the passport. However, they did not stamp "This passport replaces passport number ..." . I noticed this at the moment I got my new passport. I called the Jordanian Embassy and asked them about it. They told me we don't do that anymore. I called them one year later asking for a letter that mention these passports follow each other. They asked me if I got that stamp . They just don't want to work and everytime they tell me different answer. I wasted too much time trying to fix this through them and they did not help.

Do you have proof that you applied for a passport renewal soon after your passport expired in 2008 ? Usually they give you a slip !

I got only copy of my application and the Canada post mail tracking number (sending my application to the Jordanian Embassy). I got also copy of the money orders I made to the Jordanian Embassy (The new passport fees).

Sorry for the intrusive nature of my message, i am just trying to reason like a CIC agent would ! Don't forget that they see thousands of cases every day and it is probably not the first time they come across a Palestinian holding a Jordanian passport etc... and as you can imagine, it takes three slightly different versions of the same story to make one look suspicious !

Don't worry. In fact, I liked it. it was good practice.

Some Jordanian citizens feel Palestinian and identify themselves as such, some Jordanian citizens hold Palestinian documents, some Palestinians hold Jordanian passports without being Jordanian citizens, some Palestinians hold both Jordanian passports and Palestinian authority passports, and some Jordanian - Palestinian authority double nationals hold both and are fully citizens of both ( even though it is illegal), and also, some Palestinian authority citizens come from the Gaza strip and hold Palestinian Authority passport and in some cases an Egyptian travel document, or a Jordanian Passport with a 3 years validity, some Palestinian refugees hold only Lebanese travel documents or Syrian travel documents... and the saga can go on and on with all sorts of variables that someone coming from a place where you usually hold one single passport and where geopolitics are as clear as ABC, this is really not clear ! And let's face it, some people , sadly, a lot of people used these manipulations in order to Fraud the residency requirement... using one passport to leave Jordan and an other to enter, hiding every trace of frequent travelling between the time they left and the time they qualified for citizenship.

I know. These people really deserve punishment. I just hope I got fear hearing so the judge know that I did satisfy all the requirements.