Hearing with Citizenship Judge
- Thread starter egyo
- Start date
I applied in 2013 March. Documents sent back for some additional requirements. I resent it in May 13. Got RQ in sept 13. Two times finger print since the first expired.
Aug 15 passed the test after being invited. Was told CJ hearing within 3 months. Now 4 months have passed but no response yet. All attempt to contact the Cic fails and I am told to wait until 6 months from the time of test. Approached the MP, same response cannot define timeline for CJ hearing. My 36 Months may get Over in mar 15 or may 15 not sure due to Resending same application 2nd time with additional docs.
BTW I HAVE SELF DECLARED LESS NUM OF DAYS THAN required 1095 days and am qualified with 4/6 new rule also.
Aug 15 passed the test after being invited. Was told CJ hearing within 3 months. Now 4 months have passed but no response yet. All attempt to contact the Cic fails and I am told to wait until 6 months from the time of test. Approached the MP, same response cannot define timeline for CJ hearing. My 36 Months may get Over in mar 15 or may 15 not sure due to Resending same application 2nd time with additional docs.
BTW I HAVE SELF DECLARED LESS NUM OF DAYS THAN required 1095 days and am qualified with 4/6 new rule also.
Thanks for sharing. I hope your CJ hearing gets scheduled soon an goes well.
I am not sure if I am going to be asked for a hearing or even why as I meet all the requirements. Have days beyond 1095, submitted tons of proof, passed the test. so not sure what the issue is.
I am not sure if I am going to be asked for a hearing or even why as I meet all the requirements. Have days beyond 1095, submitted tons of proof, passed the test. so not sure what the issue is.
Canadiandesi2006
Champion Member
- Mar 6, 2014
- 41
- Visa Office......
- Scarborough, Toronto
- Job Offer........
- Pre-Assessed..
- App. Filed.......
- Oct 2015 (Re-applied)
Exports said:
I had identical situation, after making me wait for nearly 4 years the judge told, he has no time to review any documents and asked me to withdraw and re-apply.
Since you are eligible under new rules. If you dont want to waste any more time, just withdraw it immediately and re-apply.
Trust me, its way better than wasting another 6 months for judge's hearing and knowing Judges most of the time just rejects.......
Hello all,
The hearing went very well and the judge was very sympathetic towards our unjustified long waiting...he asked for a couple of docs which we sent a few days ago. I called CIC today and they refused to give me any updates that might have happened..and said the judge has 60 days...but from the meeting with the judge I felt he wanted to take the decision and grant the citizenship asap. What are your thoughts experts here? When should I expect some news?
The hearing went very well and the judge was very sympathetic towards our unjustified long waiting...he asked for a couple of docs which we sent a few days ago. I called CIC today and they refused to give me any updates that might have happened..and said the judge has 60 days...but from the meeting with the judge I felt he wanted to take the decision and grant the citizenship asap. What are your thoughts experts here? When should I expect some news?
Canadiandesi2006
Champion Member
- Mar 6, 2014
- 41
- Visa Office......
- Scarborough, Toronto
- Job Offer........
- Pre-Assessed..
- App. Filed.......
- Oct 2015 (Re-applied)
Wow, its great to hear that, we will be very happy if your get Citizenship approved ASAP. Cheers !!!egyo said:
Its encouraging for most of the candidates in similar situation. In past majority candidates were unjustly treated by CJ's unless they accompanied with some high profile immigration attorneys. Which again, is not affordable by all.
I'm so happy for you !!! ;D
Foremost, the cake is in the oven and the timer is set. Speculation at this stage is fruitless. It's mostly a done deal, and while you do not know the outcome, for sure, you will know relatively soon. There is reason to have hope the decision is favourable, but beyond that there are no good reasons for trying to guess what the decision will in fact be.
Timeline at this stage still varies, but between a few weeks and a couple months is likely, at most a number of months or so, and the longer range only if the CJ granted approval and then Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship chooses to appeal.
Secondly, your lawyer is probably the best source of information about the status of your case, and the likely outcome, the potential but less likely outcomes, and the respective probabilities.
Some more or less general observations regarding particular outcomes --
-- If the CJ grants approval and Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship does not appeal:
Next step will be taking the oath. My understanding is that the only notice you will get will be the notice of when the oath ceremony is scheduled. In the past this could be fairly short notice, around a month typical, but as little as a bit more than a week quite common.
Timeline depends on when the CJ makes the decision and how soon that is physically delivered to Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship, which then reviews the decision, and then (when no appeal is going to be filed) schedules the oath. Timeline for each of these can vary. The CJ's decision, for example, can be made and sent to IRCC almost immediately, or not for a full two months. IRCC can take a day or a full month to decide whether or not to grant citizenship, or to file an appeal. And there is no time limit prescribing how soon IRCC schedules the oath.
Thus, if the CJ grants approval and Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship does not appeal, you could see a notice to attend the oath soon or not for three to six months.
-- If the CJ grants approval and Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship does appeal:
Next step will be receipt of the notice of the Minister appealing the decision. Given the extent of the shortfall (65 days as I understand from posts in another topic), this is a possible outcome even though statistically I think the government appeals only a very small percentage of cases a CJ approves.
Timeline for this varies much for the same reasons as it does for a decision granting approval and IRCC does not appeal: from one to sixty days for CJ to make a decision, and up to a month for IRCC to decide to make the appeal, with time for delivery of notices and such in-between.
-- If the CJ denies approval:
Again, given the extent of the shortfall, this is at least a possibility. Some CJs only apply the strict physical presence test, and thus will deny any and all shortfall applications. This approach has been repeatedly upheld (and indeed, only rejected by a couple Federal Court justices, like Justice Barnes).
Timeline ranges from very soon up to something a bit more than two months. That noted, even with the changes to the Citizenship Act implemented by the extensive legislation embodied in Bill C-24, there still is no prescribed consequence for a CJ's failure to determine the case within sixty days. In other words, if the CJ takes longer, the law really shrugs, a more or less so what? scenario.
The notice you will receive should be a notice from the CJ of the CJ's negative determination, which should specify the reasons for the decision and provide information as to the right to apply for judicial review.
Note: applicants denied approval by a CJ only have a right to make an application seeking leave to appeal. In contrast, the Minister (more practically a Citizenship Officer as a delegate of the Minister), however, has the right of appeal. (Thus, these days, the vast majority of published decisions in citizenship cases are those involving an appeal by the Minister.)
Overall observations as to prospects of a favourable decision:
As already noted, speculating about the outcome at this stage is a fruitless exercise.
Since the CJ hearing went well, however, and the CJ appeared to have a very positive demeanor, and assuming you made a strong case for applying a qualitative test (typically the so-called Koo criteria), showing persuasively your life was centralized in Canada for at least three years after establishing in fact residence in Canada, there is plenty of reason to be hopeful that you will soon be getting notice to attend the oath.
But that is still mostly speculation. And again, your lawyer can give you a far, far better opinion as to how this is likely to go.
That said, shortfall cases are problematic. It is difficult to quantify how problematic they are, in part because there are so many variables involved, but also in part because the approach of the particular CJ looms very large. As I mentioned already, some CJs will apply the physical presence test and no other, and for shortfall applicants who have such a CJ, the outcome is a foregone conclusion. And not favourable.
We still see some shortfall approvals in both forum reports and in some published Federal Court decisions. And, indeed, while the decision was actually back in September of last year, a recently published decision dismissed the government's appeal of a CJ's decision to approve a shortfall applicant who also was relying on pre-landing credit. The latter is the sort of case I have suggested the odds are really against, by a big margin. But this case illustrates that some still succeed.
That case involved just a two-day shortfall, and the Minister appealed. In that context, 65 days seems like a lot, a fairly big shortfall. It warrants noting, however, that historically scores and scores of shortfall cases involved shortfalls of several hundred days.
I do not know where 65 days falls in the more recent spectrum of CJ decisions. At this stage, again, there is not much point in guessing what the decision is or will be.
The main point is that it could go either way. The decision, relatively speaking, is on its way.
Timeline at this stage still varies, but between a few weeks and a couple months is likely, at most a number of months or so, and the longer range only if the CJ granted approval and then Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship chooses to appeal.
Secondly, your lawyer is probably the best source of information about the status of your case, and the likely outcome, the potential but less likely outcomes, and the respective probabilities.
Some more or less general observations regarding particular outcomes --
-- If the CJ grants approval and Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship does not appeal:
Next step will be taking the oath. My understanding is that the only notice you will get will be the notice of when the oath ceremony is scheduled. In the past this could be fairly short notice, around a month typical, but as little as a bit more than a week quite common.
Timeline depends on when the CJ makes the decision and how soon that is physically delivered to Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship, which then reviews the decision, and then (when no appeal is going to be filed) schedules the oath. Timeline for each of these can vary. The CJ's decision, for example, can be made and sent to IRCC almost immediately, or not for a full two months. IRCC can take a day or a full month to decide whether or not to grant citizenship, or to file an appeal. And there is no time limit prescribing how soon IRCC schedules the oath.
Thus, if the CJ grants approval and Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship does not appeal, you could see a notice to attend the oath soon or not for three to six months.
-- If the CJ grants approval and Immigration, Refugees, and Citizenship does appeal:
Next step will be receipt of the notice of the Minister appealing the decision. Given the extent of the shortfall (65 days as I understand from posts in another topic), this is a possible outcome even though statistically I think the government appeals only a very small percentage of cases a CJ approves.
Timeline for this varies much for the same reasons as it does for a decision granting approval and IRCC does not appeal: from one to sixty days for CJ to make a decision, and up to a month for IRCC to decide to make the appeal, with time for delivery of notices and such in-between.
-- If the CJ denies approval:
Again, given the extent of the shortfall, this is at least a possibility. Some CJs only apply the strict physical presence test, and thus will deny any and all shortfall applications. This approach has been repeatedly upheld (and indeed, only rejected by a couple Federal Court justices, like Justice Barnes).
Timeline ranges from very soon up to something a bit more than two months. That noted, even with the changes to the Citizenship Act implemented by the extensive legislation embodied in Bill C-24, there still is no prescribed consequence for a CJ's failure to determine the case within sixty days. In other words, if the CJ takes longer, the law really shrugs, a more or less so what? scenario.
The notice you will receive should be a notice from the CJ of the CJ's negative determination, which should specify the reasons for the decision and provide information as to the right to apply for judicial review.
Note: applicants denied approval by a CJ only have a right to make an application seeking leave to appeal. In contrast, the Minister (more practically a Citizenship Officer as a delegate of the Minister), however, has the right of appeal. (Thus, these days, the vast majority of published decisions in citizenship cases are those involving an appeal by the Minister.)
Overall observations as to prospects of a favourable decision:
As already noted, speculating about the outcome at this stage is a fruitless exercise.
Since the CJ hearing went well, however, and the CJ appeared to have a very positive demeanor, and assuming you made a strong case for applying a qualitative test (typically the so-called Koo criteria), showing persuasively your life was centralized in Canada for at least three years after establishing in fact residence in Canada, there is plenty of reason to be hopeful that you will soon be getting notice to attend the oath.
But that is still mostly speculation. And again, your lawyer can give you a far, far better opinion as to how this is likely to go.
That said, shortfall cases are problematic. It is difficult to quantify how problematic they are, in part because there are so many variables involved, but also in part because the approach of the particular CJ looms very large. As I mentioned already, some CJs will apply the physical presence test and no other, and for shortfall applicants who have such a CJ, the outcome is a foregone conclusion. And not favourable.
We still see some shortfall approvals in both forum reports and in some published Federal Court decisions. And, indeed, while the decision was actually back in September of last year, a recently published decision dismissed the government's appeal of a CJ's decision to approve a shortfall applicant who also was relying on pre-landing credit. The latter is the sort of case I have suggested the odds are really against, by a big margin. But this case illustrates that some still succeed.
That case involved just a two-day shortfall, and the Minister appealed. In that context, 65 days seems like a lot, a fairly big shortfall. It warrants noting, however, that historically scores and scores of shortfall cases involved shortfalls of several hundred days.
I do not know where 65 days falls in the more recent spectrum of CJ decisions. At this stage, again, there is not much point in guessing what the decision is or will be.
The main point is that it could go either way. The decision, relatively speaking, is on its way.
Thanks dpenabill!! I really like your very informative posts. Yes, my lawyer thinks that my chances to get CJ's approval is over 90%. After 4 years of waiting, I can't wait to have this letter of oath invitation in hand and make a new post to breathe hope into the hearts of all those who are waiting for long..Let's keep fingers crossed for the best for all of us.
Canadiandesi2006
Champion Member
- Mar 6, 2014
- 41
- Visa Office......
- Scarborough, Toronto
- Job Offer........
- Pre-Assessed..
- App. Filed.......
- Oct 2015 (Re-applied)
