Have Canadian PR , never lived in Canada

[jakklondon]

I don't dignify deranged off topic diatribes with my comments. Everyone else is welcome to chime in.

 

[canuck78]

Is that so? I want to hear it from Canadian PRs. You sound like someone who has patriotic sentiments and who would defend Canadian policies the same way a kid at school would defend his brother in a scuffle with other kids, regardless of right or wrong. From what I know, Canada snubs and keeps out the board new comers who lack "Canadian experience". If this has changed drastically in the last 10 years, let Canadian PRs speak up.



I personally know someone who graduated from reputable US University , qualified for Canadian PR and couldn't get as much as an interview for a Canadian job in their field, in which they have American experience. I believe ME and MY EYES a lot more than propaganda and hearsay, sorry.



You love Canada as a child loves a parent, or your work for Canadian government, I get it. it doesn't negate the facts I have cited above. Unfortunately, no amount of love or loyalty to your country will ever negate the fact that Canada invited disproportionately high number of PRs versus it's needs for skilled labor. As a result, a lot of PRs who came under "skilled immigrant" category couldn't find skilled jobs and were forced to leave Canada and are now in breach of RO (others were forced to stay and sweep streets, drive UBER or work as sales clerks in local grocery stores).

Definitely don’t love Canada as a family member. You have some very biased opinions with only a few examples so feel the need to provide a more accurate picture of the situation). I do know that all the professionals immigrating don’t end up in minimum wage jobs unrelated to their schooling and job history. The system is not perfect but substantially better than it used to be and many professionals end up in their chosen field or have researched enough to know that that getting a job in their field will not be possible for various reasons (surplus if workers in their field, bad economy in the sector, difficult relicensing, etc.). People wanting to immigrate also have access to a huge amount of information and potential people to contact who have a similar profile as them (looking at LinkedIn provides all the info needed).

You often bring up physicians. You do realize that a Canadian citizen who has spent almost their whole life in Canada would have difficultly getting licensed or securing a residency in Canada if they went to medical school abroad. It has nothing to do with someone’s immigration status. Those who trained in the UK, Ireland, US, Australia, NZ and South Africa are able to get relicensed pretty easily.

 

[Copingwithlife]

I don't dignify deranged off topic diatribes with my comments. Everyone else is welcome to chime in.

How about you’re just nuts

 

[jakklondon]

Definitely don’t love Canada as a family member. You have some very biased opinions with only a few examples so feel the need to provide a more accurate picture of the situation). I do know that all the professionals immigrating don’t end up in minimum wage jobs unrelated to their schooling and job history. The system is not perfect but substantially better than it used to be and many professionals end up in their chosen field or have researched enough to know that that getting a job in their field will not be possible for various reasons (surplus if workers in their field, bad economy in the sector, difficult relicensing, etc.). People wanting to immigrate also have access to a huge amount of information and potential people to contact who have a similar profile as them (looking at LinkedIn provides all the info needed).

You often bring up physicians. You do realize that a Canadian citizen who has spent almost their whole life in Canada would have difficultly getting licensed or securing a residency in Canada if they went to medical school abroad. It has nothing to do with someone’s immigration status. Those who trained in the UK, Ireland, US, Australia, NZ and South Africa are able to get relicensed pretty easily.

I never said "all the professionals immigrating to Canada end up in minimum wage jobs unrelated to their schooling and job history". Quote a single instance where I wrote such a nonsense and I will take it back. What I said was that many PRs (not all) who arrive as skilled workers end up doing menial/survival jobs, others are forced to leave and breach RO for lack of job opportunities. Which leads me to conclude that Canada does not need all these "skilled PRs", if it ends up employing plenty of them in survival jobs. Nor is she acting fairly, when she penalizes for breach of RO those among PRs who flee Canada, unwilling to stay there to do menial jobs far below their qualifications. As to "physicians and engineers", they are more like proverbial (aka stereotypical) terms, we both recognize that "skilled" field is not limited to two professions on Earth (contrary is true), just as not all unskilled jobs are limited to UBER driving and store clerkships. I didn't know that I had to clarify this for you.

As to everything else not related to above, I consider it a diversion, attempt to get the conversation off topic and to things irrelevant to the point of discussion. We don't need excuses for inept people making dysfunctional policies that end up harming PRs and Canadians. If something is not working properly and bureaucrats/politicians endowed with policy making powers are responsible for it, then the last thing we need IMHO is justifying them. What we need most is recognize what the real issue is and demand from elected officials that they fix it. That's how it works in democratic, free countries where government exists to serve its' citizens and not vice versa. It's quite different in third world countries, where the state (and anyone affiliated with it or wealthy enough to peddle political influence) is a God to be worshipped, and worshipped in the most perverse way that those under the age of 18 shouldn't hear about. I still have a hope that Canada is not one of those third world countries, and where inept bureaucrats make stupid policies it's citizens and subjects can freely express their grievances. I might be wrong.

Below are couple of the links to mass media published article and a research, that talk about struggles Canadian PRs face when trying to get a job in Canada. Google search can yield hundreds more of similar links. You can call them "biased", but those of us who landed in Canada and tried to get employed there know better.


"As the federal government prepares to open the door to more immigrants to drive economic growth, some who are already here say they're struggling to find jobs, despite being highly-educated and qualified.
"I don't see a lot of growth," Sandy Chugh said when describing his current job. Despite having years of experience in marketing and a bachelor's degree from Ireland, the 32 year-old is working in a warehouse for the retailer Best Buy."
Link: Read the article here

"Policy Issue: Discrimination along lines of nationality and ethnicity. Skilled immigrants in Canada struggle in the labor market, facing substantially higher levels of unemployment and lower wages than non-immigrants. Researchers randomly manipulated thousands of resumes to measure the effects that foreign experience and having a name of Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek origin (all large immigrant groups in Canada) have on callback rates from employers. Resumes with English-sounding names received more callbacks than those with Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek names. Work experience in Canada increased responses for resumes with Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek names, but callback rates were still lower than those with English-sounding names."
Link: Read the article here

 

[SecularFirst]

I never said "all the professionals immigrating to Canada end up in minimum wage jobs unrelated to their schooling and job history". Quote a single instance where I wrote such a nonsense and I will take it back. What I said was that many PRs (not all) who arrive as skilled workers end up doing menial/survival jobs, others are forced to leave and breach RO for lack of job opportunities. Which leads me to conclude that Canada does not need all these "skilled PRs", if it ends up employing plenty of them in survival jobs. Nor is she acting fairly, when she penalizes for breach of RO those among PRs who flee Canada, unwilling to stay there to do menial jobs far below their qualifications. As to "physicians and engineers", they are more like proverbial (aka stereotypical) terms, we both recognize that "skilled" field is not limited to two professions on Earth (contrary is true), just as not all unskilled jobs are limited to UBER driving and store clerkships. I didn't know that I had to clarify this for you.

As to everything else not related to above, I consider it a diversion, attempt to get the conversation off topic and to things irrelevant to the point of discussion. We don't need excuses for inept people making dysfunctional policies that end up harming PRs and Canadians. If something is not working properly and bureaucrats/politicians endowed with policy making powers are responsible for it, then the last thing we need IMHO is justifying them. What we need most is recognize what the real issue is and demand from elected officials that they fix it. That's how it works in democratic, free countries where government exists to serve its' citizens and not vice versa. It's quite different in third world countries, where the state (and anyone affiliated with it or wealthy enough to peddle political influence) is a God to be worshipped, and worshipped in the most perverse way that those under the age of 18 shouldn't hear about. I still have a hope that Canada is not one of those third world countries, and where inept bureaucrats make stupid policies it's citizens and subjects can freely express their grievances. I might be wrong.

Below are couple of the links to mass media published article and a research, that talk about struggles Canadian PRs face when trying to get a job in Canada. Google search can yield hundreds more of similar links. You can call them "biased", but those of us who landed in Canada and tried to get employed there know better.


"As the federal government prepares to open the door to more immigrants to drive economic growth, some who are already here say they're struggling to find jobs, despite being highly-educated and qualified.
"I don't see a lot of growth," Sandy Chugh said when describing his current job. Despite having years of experience in marketing and a bachelor's degree from Ireland, the 32 year-old is working in a warehouse for the retailer Best Buy."
Link: Read the article here

"Policy Issue: Discrimination along lines of nationality and ethnicity. Skilled immigrants in Canada struggle in the labor market, facing substantially higher levels of unemployment and lower wages than non-immigrants. Researchers randomly manipulated thousands of resumes to measure the effects that foreign experience and having a name of Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek origin (all large immigrant groups in Canada) have on callback rates from employers. Resumes with English-sounding names received more callbacks than those with Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek names. Work experience in Canada increased responses for resumes with Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek names, but callback rates were still lower than those with English-sounding names."
Link: Read the article here

I have also seen lot of reverse racism and reverse discrimination happening. Businesses controlled by immigrants, southeast asians and Asians tend to only southeast asian and Asian named resumes. Not all the time buy majority of the time.

 

[jakklondon]

I have also seen lot of reverse racism and reverse discrimination happening. Businesses controlled by immigrants, southeast asians and Asians tend to only southeast asian and Asian named resumes. Not all the time buy majority of the time.

Bad example is contagious. People saw this happening to others and decided to do the same when they were in a position to select. When society starts "tribalizing", then we all start to mirror each other's behavior. I am all against identity politics and I do not think it's economically productive to discriminate against or give preference to one race/color/origin over the other while ignoring the single most important measure of worth, the merit. I think merit should rule the day. Like in military. If you are brave and can fight, who cares what is your color or where your ancestors came from? Strong and courageous soldiers win the battles. Regardless of what they look like under uniform. The same principle should be at work in the business world.

 

[RocketCity]

Damn, this thread went off rails. 7 pages and only two data points.

 

[jakklondon]

Damn, this thread went off rails. 7 pages and only two data points.

Which data points?

 

[canuck78]

I never said "all the professionals immigrating to Canada end up in minimum wage jobs unrelated to their schooling and job history". Quote a single instance where I wrote such a nonsense and I will take it back. What I said was that many PRs (not all) who arrive as skilled workers end up doing menial/survival jobs, others are forced to leave and breach RO for lack of job opportunities. Which leads me to conclude that Canada does not need all these "skilled PRs", if it ends up employing plenty of them in survival jobs. Nor is she acting fairly, when she penalizes for breach of RO those among PRs who flee Canada, unwilling to stay there to do menial jobs far below their qualifications. As to "physicians and engineers", they are more like proverbial (aka stereotypical) terms, we both recognize that "skilled" field is not limited to two professions on Earth (contrary is true), just as not all unskilled jobs are limited to UBER driving and store clerkships. I didn't know that I had to clarify this for you.

As to everything else not related to above, I consider it a diversion, attempt to get the conversation off topic and to things irrelevant to the point of discussion. We don't need excuses for inept people making dysfunctional policies that end up harming PRs and Canadians. If something is not working properly and bureaucrats/politicians endowed with policy making powers are responsible for it, then the last thing we need IMHO is justifying them. What we need most is recognize what the real issue is and demand from elected officials that they fix it. That's how it works in democratic, free countries where government exists to serve its' citizens and not vice versa. It's quite different in third world countries, where the state (and anyone affiliated with it or wealthy enough to peddle political influence) is a God to be worshipped, and worshipped in the most perverse way that those under the age of 18 shouldn't hear about. I still have a hope that Canada is not one of those third world countries, and where inept bureaucrats make stupid policies it's citizens and subjects can freely express their grievances. I might be wrong.

Below are couple of the links to mass media published article and a research, that talk about struggles Canadian PRs face when trying to get a job in Canada. Google search can yield hundreds more of similar links. You can call them "biased", but those of us who landed in Canada and tried to get employed there know better.


"As the federal government prepares to open the door to more immigrants to drive economic growth, some who are already here say they're struggling to find jobs, despite being highly-educated and qualified.
"I don't see a lot of growth," Sandy Chugh said when describing his current job. Despite having years of experience in marketing and a bachelor's degree from Ireland, the 32 year-old is working in a warehouse for the retailer Best Buy."
Link: Read the article here

"Policy Issue: Discrimination along lines of nationality and ethnicity. Skilled immigrants in Canada struggle in the labor market, facing substantially higher levels of unemployment and lower wages than non-immigrants. Researchers randomly manipulated thousands of resumes to measure the effects that foreign experience and having a name of Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek origin (all large immigrant groups in Canada) have on callback rates from employers. Resumes with English-sounding names received more callbacks than those with Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek names. Work experience in Canada increased responses for resumes with Chinese, Indian, Pakistani, or Greek names, but callback rates were still lower than those with English-sounding names."
Link: Read the article here

Give up. You seem to think you know everything but yet don’t have much experience on the ground. Canada isn’t a prison. People are free to relocate elsewhere or return to their home country. Given the fact that Canada doesn’t provide opportunities (according to you) if someone leaves there is no need for them to retain PR.

 

[RocketCity]

Which data points?

If we were to some day cross Canadian border as American citizens, what would be chances of being reported/stopped at border for being Canadian permanent residents? How strictly the requirement is being enforced? .....
I am asking for ANECDOTAL evidence (not statistics per se, but personal experiences of individuals in similar circumstances).

I was hoping for more anecdotes.

 

[jakklondon]

I was hoping for more anecdotes.

Me too. But very few people post. I think many are intimidated by few vocal posters that seem angry and bent on harassing anyone who is in breach of RO or wants to discuss this subject.

 

[jakklondon]

Give up. You seem to think you know everything but yet don’t have much experience on the ground. Canada isn’t a prison. People are free to relocate elsewhere or return to their home country. Given the fact that Canada doesn’t provide opportunities (according to you) if someone leaves there is no need for them to retain PR.

I don't understand what are you asking me to do. Are you telling me not to participate in this forum and express my views, just like you and others do? Or, if I see something wrong, you think I should shut up and not say a word about it? I am sorry, but I am a free man. I don't take orders from strangers nor get intimidated into silence so easily. I have an opinion I tend to express it freely. Especially considering the fact that I am a Canadian PR and the existing policies I discuss under this thread affect or affected me directly.

 

[dpenabill]

I was hoping for more anecdotes.

f we were to some day cross Canadian border as American citizens, what would be chances of being reported/stopped at border for being Canadian permanent residents? How strictly the requirement is being enforced? .....
I am asking for ANECDOTAL evidence (not statistics per se, but personal experiences of individuals in similar circumstances).

In my first post here I summarized some information based on both anecdotal reports and actual cases recounted in official IAD and Federal Court decisions that have populated numerous threads in this forum. I will quote that below.

In looking back I realize I glossed over the difference between the PR who is upfront about having PR status compared to those who present a home country passport, for example, and make no mention of their PR status at the PIL. Historically Americans and to some extent, especially for Western Europeans, others presenting a visa-exempt passport at the Port-of-Entry (referring to land border crossing locations; visa-exempt passport holders, other than Americans, need a PR card or PR TD to board a flight to Canada, as they are not eligible for eTA), are PRs who probably had better odds of NOT being referred to Secondary than those who were upfront (but noting that failing to be upfront invites other risks, such as in regards to how it goes if there is nonetheless a referral to Secondary), and thus better odds they would be waived into Canada (presumably as visitors) without being examined as to Residency Obligation compliance. Again, this too is based on anecdotal reports here over many years, and some personal anecdotal reports among people I know.

The main caveat about the anecdotal reporting is that the trend is clearly in the direction of more thorough screening and it appears to be in the direction of more strict RO enforcement (with an exception in the current situation related to the impact of Covid; but that will not last).

Anyway . . . my summary of information about this in my first post quoted here:



Port-of-Entry Examination of PRs as to Residency Obligation Compliance, for PRs Returning to Canada After an Absence of Three Plus Years:

Most PRs are NOT questioned much if at all about RO compliance upon arrival at a PoE (I never was, not in many dozens of crossings while I was a PR).

While the query asked about coming here after being gone five years, which would typically mean the PR is arriving at the PoE without a valid PR card, if the absence has been for more than three years, even if the PR presents a valid PR card it is more or less obvious there is a RO compliance question, since it is impossible to meet the RO (without some exception applying) if the PR was last in Canada more than three years ago.

So, at the PIL (Primary Inspection Line) the screening official will ordinarily, but not always, recognize there is, potentially, a RO compliance issue if a PR applying for entry into Canada (such application is made by just showing up at the PIL) has either been outside Canada more than three years or does not present a currently valid PR card. It is not the PIL officer's job to conduct further screening, but rather to refer the traveler to Immigration Secondary. If the referral to Secondary is specifically about RO compliance questions, obviously that results in more extensive questioning about RO compliance.

There are other reasons why a PR might be referred to Immigration Secondary (in contrast to a referral to Secondary for merely customs screening) . But if there is such a referral, there is a significant risk that will include questions about RO compliance; might even be that with any referral to Immigration Secondary, it is likely there will be at least some questions aimed at verifying RO compliance.

Other factors also may trigger a referral to Secondary by the PIL officer for questioning about RO compliance. Some PRs must be referred to Secondary (such as a PR carrying a one-year PR card).

In contrast, anecdotal reports suggest that on more than a few occasions a PR who is in breach of the RO, including some way in breach, are just waived into Canada by the PIL officer. This appears to be about PRs carrying a visa-exempt passport, and perhaps even more so those presenting a U.S. passport, and mostly PRs who do not say anything to the PIL officer about being a Canadian PR. More than a few PRs outside Canada long in breach of the RO, and without a PR card, will actually attempt a return to Canada this way, hoping to be waived through. If they succeed, they can FIX their RO problem by staying for two years, without leaving, before applying for a new PR card. Not so easily done as it might sound. But more than a few try.

So the PIL is the biggest fork in the path determining whether a PR faces a more or less strict RO compliance examination upon returning to Canada. If the PIL officer waives the PR through, no RO compliance examination, no 44(1) Report for Inadmissibility for a breach of the RO.

Most indications are that this is less and less likely going forward. Electronic scanning of passport by PIL will almost always (not always but almost) identify the traveler to be a Canadian PR.

Once a PR is referred to Secondary and is questioned about RO compliance, the PR who is for sure in breach, and by a lot, and who is not making a strong H&C case for keeping PR status, the odds of being issued the 44(1) Report are probably VERY HIGH.

A traveler with a U.S. passport, or even one carrying another visa-exempt passport, might be waived through if the examining officer is satisfied the individual is just visiting, not intending to stay. Could be because there is no reason to do all the paperwork since the traveler will be allowed into Canada anyway (either after renouncing PR status and allowed in as a visitor, or allowed in as a PR "under enforcement" subject to the right to appeal) and will soon be leaving . . . let some other officer do the paperwork, next time. This seems to have been common in the not-so-distant past but as the border screening process has gotten more formal over the years, it seems very likely even this will be less and less common going forward.

 

[canuck78]

I don't understand what are you asking me to do. Are you telling me not to participate in this forum and express my views, just like you and others do? Or, if I see something wrong, you think I should shut up and not say a word about it? I am sorry, but I am a free man. I don't take orders from strangers nor get intimidated into silence so easily. I have an opinion I tend to express it freely. Especially considering the fact that I am a Canadian PR and the existing policies I discuss under this thread affect or affected me directly.

So the truth comes out. Your tirades are based on the fact that you are a PR and haven’t met your RO. If you didn’t find the opportunities you wanted in Canada and think that Canada is such an awful country why do you want to return to Canada?

 

[jakklondon]

So the truth comes out. Your tirades are based on the fact that you are a PR and haven’t met your RO. If you didn’t find the opportunities you wanted in Canada and think that Canada is such an awful country why do you want to return to Canada?

This an insinuation, of something sinister finally coming out. First of all, my very first post made it clear that I am PR in breach of RO. It was the truth. And it didn't just come out, to the contrary, it was declared before anything else.

Second, you can call it anything you want. I consider it critical thinking and fair assessment of reality that many Canadian PRs arriving under skilled category face. I posted a link (which, apparently you didn't bother to click on) and quoted an article posted on mainstream media, which discussed the plight of many skilled immigrants, who were unable to get a skilled job in Canada for "lack of Canadian experience", and were doing, instead , survival jobs. Like the guy with bachelor's degree from Ireland who was working in Best Buy's warehouse, or his wife with MBA ,who was doing some menial job for $14/hr. So, this is not just about me. It certainly concerns me, as I am one of PRs who can testify that Canadian job market sucks, but the article I quoted and linked to shows that my experience is far from anomaly. That many other immigrants who arrived under skilled worker category had similar or worse outcomes (worse, because unlike me they were stuck and forced to remain in Canada).

Finally, if I see there are more skilled workers than Canada needs (to the extent that MBA holders do survival jobs for $14/hr), it's only reasonable to ask why Canada brings immigrants to Canada in such record numbers, while existing PR's are struggling to get gainfully employed.

What is it that you don't like about my line of thinking or questions I ask? What in particular I state that stands out to be untrue or malicious or wrong?
Can you name one thing you actually disagree with, rather than making insinuations and demanding that I stick a plug in my mouth and keep quite?

Btw, I didn't say I want to return to Canada. I asked, what are the experiences of Canadian PRs in breach of RO who attempted to return to Canada after a long time outside of Canada.