Foreign Service - Strike?

[DaveSav]

If you believe that then so are corporations.

They are most definitely anti free market just like unions. Of course a true free market sounds like a pretty crappy system. I'll take well thought out regulations to protect people anytime.

 

[scos]

They are most definitely anti free market just like unions. Of course a true free market sounds like a pretty crappy system. I'll take well thought out regulations to protect people anytime.

Yeah, we always hear of how regulation kills free markets. That is the complete opposite of the truth. A completely free market will devolve into monopolies and rigged markets every time. With no regulation, those with the most money rule.

 

[Dan_from_Surrey]

One question to the anti union crowd, this is maybe a morbid curiosity, but what 'ell...

What exactly is the complaint with unionized workers? Over and over I see, phrases like over paid, underworked, entitled, lazy, useless etc.

I work 40 hour weeks, with a minimum of another ten a week from home unpaid. Never complain, never ask for anything more than what has been bargained for, even though in the 24 years I have been with this Public Sector employer, I think I have now seen, 9 or 10 years with 0% raise. Most years a raise if it comes is around 2%, sometimes lower. Always below the cost of living.

I have watch public sector contracts be ripped up, and private multi nationals brought in that pay lower wages and less benefits, but cost more in the end, then they leave when there is nothing left to bleed out of the system. All the while the appointed boards overseeing these operations in ease their stipends and fees and wages and perks.

We see the same crap in the banking and big private sectors as well. We watch cash move hand over fist to bail out these same companies and concerns, but never a damned peep is said about that. Apperantly running the public trust into the ground and holding your hand out for a bail of and doing it again is ok.

But Holy s**t, and union person says enough, and demands fairness then out comes the lynch mob mentality. I am beginning to think some of the main opponents of unions here must be small (maybe mid sized) business people, and managers who profit to at least a small degree with the robber barons we have running the show now.

Maybe utopia, for the anti union crowd is everyone working, at 12 bucks an hour. 25 hours a week, three jobs, so what. Who do you think is going to be paying the taxes, buying the houses or cars or spending money that funds the things we take for granted in this country?

Maybe the union haters should learn about the history of Canada, and read up on events like the Winnepeg riots, from the first quarter of the last century, and see the simarigies between now and then, before engaging in the mindless spewing of the tripe that is comming forth now.

If there was ever a time when this country needed labour to stand up to government and business it is now, just as it was about a hundred years ago.

Sure as hell, the one doing the most bashing in this thread, are not the ones that are going not stand for their sisters or brothers, and have a social consiecnce that seems to extend no further than buy saving funds built around "ethical bonds" from the bank.

Canada was built on organized labour, and has one of the longest histories of it, in the free world. If you don't like it leave. Simple enough.

So with that said, here I sit in the same boat, sucking up the same extending waiting time, suffering the same set back due to this labour dispute. But unfortunately, I also have to endure the slings and arrows of the anti's, lets hope hope you never need a service either I, or one of my union brothers or sisters provide, because I would take great pleasure in making sure to extend that wait time for you as well, piss on me now, fine. But I will go out of my way to piss on you twice later. Work with me now, and get something fair for everyone, then we can work together tomorrow, and the day after as well.

 

[DaveSav]

One question to the anti union crowd, this is maybe a morbid curiosity, but what 'ell...

I think it's also important to note that when someone disagrees with one specific unions request, or how they are going about it, doesn't mean they are anti-union or disagree with the principle of unions.

So many times people make inferences about the other person because of one thing without realizing that not everyone fits into this 'box'. If i disagree with the unions tactics, this doesn't automatically mean i agree with how the government is acting either. I can agree with Harper about something and not be pro Harper......okay that's a bad example I don't think I could ever agree with him but hopefully you get my point.

 

[scos]

One question to the anti union crowd, this is maybe a morbid curiosity, but what 'ell...

What exactly is the complaint with unionized workers? Over and over I see, phrases like over paid, underworked, entitled, lazy, useless etc.

I work 40 hour weeks, with a minimum of another ten a week from home unpaid. Never complain, never ask for anything more than what has been bargained for, even though in the 24 years I have been with this Public Sector employer, I think I have now seen, 9 or 10 years with 0% raise. Most years a raise if it comes is around 2%, sometimes lower. Always below the cost of living.

I have watch public sector contracts be ripped up, and private multi nationals brought in that pay lower wages and less benefits, but cost more in the end, then they leave when there is nothing left to bleed out of the system. All the while the appointed boards overseeing these operations in ease their stipends and fees and wages and perks.

We see the same crap in the banking and big private sectors as well. We watch cash move hand over fist to bail out these same companies and concerns, but never a damned peep is said about that. Apperantly running the public trust into the ground and holding your hand out for a bail of and doing it again is ok.

But Holy s**t, and union person says enough, and demands fairness then out comes the lynch mob mentality. I am beginning to think some of the main opponents of unions here must be small (maybe mid sized) business people, and managers who profit to at least a small degree with the robber barons we have running the show now.

Maybe utopia, for the anti union crowd is everyone working, at 12 bucks an hour. 25 hours a week, three jobs, so what. Who do you think is going to be paying the taxes, buying the houses or cars or spending money that funds the things we take for granted in this country?

Maybe the union haters should learn about the history of Canada, and read up on events like the Winnepeg riots, from the first quarter of the last century, and see the simarigies between now and then, before engaging in the mindless spewing of the tripe that is comming forth now.

If there was ever a time when this country needed labour to stand up to government and business it is now, just as it was about a hundred years ago.

Sure as hell, the one doing the most bashing in this thread, are not the ones that are going not stand for their sisters or brothers, and have a social consiecnce that seems to extend no further than buy saving funds built around "ethical bonds" from the bank.

Canada was built on organized labour, and has one of the longest histories of it, in the free world. If you don't like it leave. Simple enough.

So with that said, here I sit in the same boat, sucking up the same extending waiting time, suffering the same set back due to this labour dispute. But unfortunately, I also have to endure the slings and arrows of the anti's, lets hope hope you never need a service either I, or one of my union brothers or sisters provide, because I would take great pleasure in making sure to extend that wait time for you as well, piss on me now, fine. But I will go out of my way to piss on you twice later. Work with me now, and get something fair for everyone, then we can work together tomorrow, and the day after as well.

I'd give you a +1 but apparently I have to wait... :-[

You know one of the really annoying things along with the anti-union stuff is the anti-government stuff. There is this idea that private industry can always do it better or cheaper (usually because they are non-union and pay their people much less). It is bad enough when they level attacks like this at some crown corporations that generally lose money but they also go after those that make money. In other words it is the existence of crown corporations itself that these people find offensive. They smell profits and don't care about the public good. They want Canada Post killed so we can all pay more for mail. They want private health care so insurance and private clinics can make more profits at our expense. And in the weirdest one I've ever seen they want the LCBO (Liquor Control Board of Ontario) a government run company with year after year of profitability and good service sold off so those profits can go into private hands instead of back into the government.

And of course corporations such as these are sold off they are always sold at a loss, with loan guarantees and tax breaks for the new owners. People really need to wake up to this. Ontario paid nearly half a billion dollars building SkyDome and then sold it years later for 20 million to Rogers. Where is the public outrage at that? And now we see Markham wants to build an obscenely expensive stadium in another "public-private partnership". With all this corruption and abuse of public moneys are people really going to quibble about 4.2 million over 3 years for 1300+ workers???

 

[scos]

I think it's also important to note that when someone disagrees with one specific unions request, or how they are going about it, doesn't mean they are anti-union or disagree with the principle of unions.

So many times people make inferences about the other person because of one thing without realizing that not everyone fits into this 'box'. If i disagree with the unions tactics, this doesn't automatically mean i agree with how the government is acting either. I can agree with Harper about something and not be pro Harper......okay that's a bad example I don't think I could ever agree with him but hopefully you get my point.

What I find annoying is the union attack. What if this weren't the government? If it was a private company people wouldn't attack the union. They would call the company to complain about the service. When the company says its the union's fault most people would say they don't care, they paid for such-and-such and that the company better find a way to get it.

But when it is the government they blame the union and for some reason the public backs them. I didn't pay PAFSO to process my wifes immigration application, I paid the government. So I am going to complain to the government to get the work done. And if that means giving in to demands, or legilslation, or whatever then do it. But don't sit on your hands and say "It isn't us, its the evil union!". And of course, how they resolve the issue will be dealt with by the electorate at a different time: namely the next election.

 

[sidhu1982]

what I think is there should be a better way to deal with situations like this one today, teachers strike last year or what we saw in toronto garbage strike in 2009. there are lessons need to be learned, there is a dire need for a legislation which provide effective bargaining and hence resolutions otherwise it will keep on happening again and again. what we are seeing is govt(public servants) v/s PAFSO( union representing public servants) with the only thing common public...who gets minced in between. most people are anti union at this time because they are taxpayers paying the salaries of these employees but when it comes to unemployment and buying pandas on taxpayers dime there was not much hue and cry.
from liberal or NDP standpoints i have not seen a major outcry about this strike or pressurizing government because the political parties are joined to the hip when it comes to situation like this.
i have personally worked with public sector employees for over 8 years and i have seen a lot of worst and only a few good employees who care about the funding. when march comes there is huge rush to purchase everything so there funding doesnt get cut next year even if they use the equipment or not or store it in a private companies warehouse..
so like your five fingers are not of same length, goes same with all the unions and employees.

what i think this union should have done is- keep the impact minimum to the economy and families while moving forward judicially and in social media to gain the consensus of masses and pressurize the government in more sensible way than the extreme steps they took with releasing statements in media about financial losses that canada will suffer , pulling out completely was foolish and irresponsible and due to this they lost all the sympathy from an average common man except from other unions and that in my opinion is the ground reality.

what do you think Dan/scos ? i want to keep this debate going in more sensible and constructive manner

 

[CanadianJeepGuy]

Corporations or business for profit have no moral imperative. Unions bring that into the workplace by setting reasonable standards of employment. People make companies profitable not just the CEO and senior management.

I, like Dan, work my 40 hours a week. I don't take breaks or lunch. I walk over 50 kms a week in all weather and deal with both rich and poor alike. I have to manage my safety on my own. There is no one to help me in the event of any emergency. I've been threatened...once even at knife point and verbally abused many times. I've had several injuries. I have to deal with negligent landlords, homeowners and dog owners as well. I also have only seen my wages decrease every year despite working for a very profitable Crown Corp. I don't think it is unfair for workers to expect to get paid well for the profits they help create.

 

[Dan_from_Surrey]

I think it's also important to note that when someone disagrees with one specific unions request, or how they are going about it, doesn't mean they are anti-union or disagree with the principle of unions.

So many times people make inferences about the other person because of one thing without realizing that not everyone fits into this 'box'. If i disagree with the unions tactics, this doesn't automatically mean i agree with how the government is acting either. I can agree with Harper about something and not be pro Harper......okay that's a bad example I don't think I could ever agree with him but hopefully you get my point.

Lol, well said I agree with some bits and pieces myself.

 

[scos]

what i think this union should have done is- keep the impact minimum to the economy and families while moving forward judicially and in social media to gain the consensus of masses and pressurize the government in more sensible way than the extreme steps they took with releasing statements in media about financial losses that canada will suffer , pulling out completely was foolish and irresponsible and due to this they lost all the sympathy from an average common man except from other unions and that in my opinion is the ground reality.

That wouldn't work. As long as the work is getting done and people aren't complaining the government would have no incentive to bargain. They would just let them work with no new contract indefinately. And there would be no social pressure since most people before this strike never heard of PAFSO and will forget them soon after the strike is over. The only reason it hit our radar is because it affects us directly. If you don't believe this, just look at how many posts we continue to see on this site asking what is going on. If people who are in the immigration process don't know, how are people outside of it supposed to know?

How is PAFSO supposed to mobilize "social pressure" on the government to change their position? This government hasn't wanted to negotiate on anything and regularly stifles public information and debate on practically every issue. It isn't just a union that has problems with this government. Pretty much everyone does. But they have a majority and they are going to use it. To hell with what the people want.

The government is the issue here. Think about this, pretty much every action to resolve this dispute has been initiated by the union. How is that for strong leadership in government? If everyone is forced to wait for visas it is because the government is content to let this drag on. And if people don't see it that way then show us the proof. There are lots of headlines of PAFSO's initiatives, where are Clement's? All he does is hold up the same contract he has been pushing for well over a year and gives us a song and dance about how he tried...

So there really isn't any other way this can play out given the government's stance of non-negotiation. And just think, there are a lot of other expired labor contracts this government will have to renegotiate before the election in 2015. Any bets on which union will be next to strike?

 

[sidhu1982]

corporations specially mid size ones where the profit is driven from pay cuts of the employees. During the so called recession a friend on mine who worked in one of the privately owned IT company in Toronto got the paycut by 30% ..some folks left the company so the workload got heavier and the owner bought a masseratti .. Sad
But every sector has good and evil. Government gets better service from private firms in terms of timely delivery but in competitive workspace the worker bee only makes hand to mouth. If the government introduce incentive and performance based apprasals or layoffs , I think it will significantly improve the overall environment of service based industry..even in public sector if governments and unions can work together on that.
There should be no reason that a non performing govt employee should hide behind a union and the fairness should be in all aspects of the job not just the pay..these jobs should not be taken as granted... Just a thought

 

[CanadianJeepGuy]

corporations specially mid size ones where the profit is driven from pay cuts of the employees. During the so called recession a friend on mine who worked in one of the privately owned IT company in Toronto got the paycut by 30% ..some folks left the company so the workload got heavier and the owner bought a masseratti .. Sad
But every sector has good and evil. Government gets better service from private firms in terms of timely delivery but in competitive workspace the worker bee only makes hand to mouth. If the government introduce incentive and performance based apprasals or layoffs , I think it will significantly improve the overall environment of service based industry..even in public sector if governments and unions can work together on that.
There should be no reason that a non performing govt employee should hide behind a union and the fairness should be in all aspects of the job not just the pay..these jobs should not be taken as granted... Just a thought

Government services are not for profit. There is no way to make incentive based pay work because managers would favour certain supervisors who would favour certain workers etc....that is why there is a union. Government is big and the opportunity for corruption is everywhere. Look at the level of corruption in the governments of other countries that have little to no union structure.

We pay taxes so that we can have access to services at cost. Once you allow a "for profit" business to take over they have only one focus and that is to generate higher profits each year. Look at the mess of the healthcare system in the states. You have to be rich to get life saving medical treatment. My Dad has had 4 different types of cancer and has survived them all and has kept his savings in tact. If he was American he would first go broke and then die.

All businesses go through a growth cycle until their market is saturated. At that point if they don't find the next thing to encourage a growth cycle they begin the process of self cannibalization. They adopt the model of making money by trying to save it. Downsize, lay-offs, pay cuts or out sourcing are all signs of a company in decline.

 

[scos]

It is particularly hard to find incentives that work anyway. Studies have shown that monetary incentives work for manual labour like someone on an assembly line. There is a direct relationship between output and money that can be set up and it does result in improved productivity. But as soon as you move to "knowledge workers" that incentive becomes useless.

The studies done so far have found that these workers no longer focus on doing more work or a better quality job, but instead on how to game the system to make a bigger payoff. And it gets worse the higher up the ladder you go. How many CEOs have we seen completely trash their companies in order to maximize their bonuses? They don't really care about the company, they don't own it (they can always sell their stock options). And as long as the damage they cause isn't discovered right away then all the better to their reputations. So when you see a company collapse after losing a CEO it usually isn't because he/she was keeping the company afloat (which is what he/she will say). Instead it is the result of business decisions that, while bad for the company, were incredibly profitable for him/herself (remember Worldcom? Nortel? Bear Sterns?).

What does work for knowledge workers is to pay enough so that pay is no longer a concern. Then empower your employees and give them some control over their work. A sense of pride in your job and enjoyment in your job apparently works much better than more cash. And paying "enough" doesn't necessarily mean huge salaries either. If someone in your field generally makes 60k, then maybe pay 65k. Are you going to consider moving to another company now? Especially since your financial needs are met and you love your work?

So how does this work for PAFSO? Do you want to pay per visa issued? Then you will get lots of visas, maybe to people who shouldn't get them. Do you want to pay per application processed? Then maybe they will get rushed. No matter what criteria you use there will be a way around it (look up the NHS hospitals in the UK for some particularly interesting examples of fudging the stats). No, the best way is pay them enough so they aren't constantly concerned about their money. Then treat them as professionals and let them do their jobs.

 

[CanadianJeepGuy]

Excellent post Scos.

 

[sidhu1982]

well there are always some risks when you implement a change and its a good thing to be risk averse to an extent and bad to be risk-phobic. If there is an incentive based system, SCOS you are right that cash incentives is not at all the right way to motivate someone to work, but as some of us may have read in famous Maslow's theory,the personal growth is the highest motivator, and it doesn't need to be implemented tomorrow, there should be research, process mapping, control points, audits QA, and pilots need to be complete first.

for example if you order a food in restaurant and it arrives after 30 mins, cold .. would you pay for that service or consider going back there again, No because its your money and you want to spend it where you can get best service and good food, then you will tip generously as well. so why cannot this government spend my tax dollars wisely where i can enjoy it as well.. is it too much to ask? why is it when we talk about putting some control points or performance checks for government employees, all of a sudden it wont work?

for Foreign service , i am sure there can be a way to introduce such steps where performance can be measured. like what we see in GCMS notes that some files dont get touched for more 5 months by assigned officers while some gets completed in 5 months. plus there can be a lot of other key control points where performance can be measured other than granting or rejecting visas or pay per process.

Nothing is impossible, i am an optimist and i think if one puts sincere efforts for anything, it can be achieved.

CanadianJeepGuy: i never mentioned that government is for profit organization, its about utilizing the tax money wisely.
what happened after the toronto garbage strike if you can recall, the govt privatized some areas to GFL, with performance based incentive and fines. saving millions of dollars. plus i can complain about bad behaviour or service now and it gets heard. there are other cities where the garbage collection is fully privatized saving millions of tax dollars every year which are being utilized in health care, reducing emerg times, get more doctors,development of roads etc.. everything is possible and there is always a way.. you just need to be open minded and positive to look for it

but instead of privatizing, implement the similar system in few pilot departments.


there is corruption in other countries at a grass root level because the govt employees dont even make 25% of what canadian employee make and in order to sustain the family, one takes bribes but it still cannot be justified. we come to conclusion very fast and be judgemental. there is a lot of corruption in canada as well but its not at grass root level so it doesnt impact us directly, the media is not strong/independent , so we dont really hear about it.