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Few scenarios on RO, Help needed!!

GRV

Star Member
May 5, 2009
119
1
Hi Guys,
Its been a while since I visited here, but was off this area, well just to give a brief on my profile:
Visited Canada for PR activation in April 2011, was on short-term project with my org. then got transferred back to IND in Aug 2011 (effective stay lasted close to 75 days)
Since then have been in my home country, lots of development took place, now I'm planning to visit Canada for good in Apr 2015 but my PR would expire in April 2016.
So here are my queries:
1. I read few topics on the same and found out that I can get a entry to Canada in Apr 2015 but can be reported to CIC depending on the Immig. officer thoughts on my case.
Now Scenario 1: If I don't get reported, I can stay in Canada but going & coming back to my home country or visiting USA would raise the risk level of getting reported to CIC, and plan to accumulate 730 days over the time but what will happen once I cross my PR expiry date i.e. will that effect in getting health benefits? and once i have accumulated 730 days, then only should I apply for renewal of PR card, right?
Scenario 2: If I get reported, how will I know, whether they will inform me at the airport? or will a letter come to my registered address? And how do I respond, via email or in person at CIC office? And I read on this forum that employment or education cannot be the reason for RO not to be met. So what reasons can be given. I was on an employment project & then due to family reasons as well.

Also, now that I have an year old baby born during my stay outside canada, so how do i bring my baby to canada? can I sponsor him?

Will wait for your helpful replies.

Thanks in advance.
GRV
 

Rob_TO

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GRV said:
Now Scenario 1: If I don't get reported, I can stay in Canada but going & coming back to my home country or visiting USA would raise the risk level of getting reported to CIC, and plan to accumulate 730 days over the time but what will happen once I cross my PR expiry date i.e. will that effect in getting health benefits? and once i have accumulated 730 days, then only should I apply for renewal of PR card, right?
Yes only once you meet the 2-in-5 years RO, can you apply for renewal. It's not a problem if your PR card expires, but after it expires you MUST remain in Canada and not leave for any reason. You would not be able to return with the expired PR card (you can't board any flights or get a travel doc), or you would be reported for sure if you tried to drive into Canada.

Scenario 2: If I get reported, how will I know, whether they will inform me at the airport? or will a letter come to my registered address? And how do I respond, via email or in person at CIC office? And I read on this forum that employment or education cannot be the reason for RO not to be met. So what reasons can be given. I was on an employment project & then due to family reasons as well.
Yes CBSA would inform you at the airport if they decide to report you. Then you would get a letter, and have to attend a meeting with CIC.

Your only reason to not meet RO is if there was an extreme H&C consideration (like a serious health issue of you or your family) you were dealing with to cause you not to reside in Canada. You would need to show lots of proofs of any such claim. If you just chose to stay out of Canada for employment and to be with your family, then you would not win any appeal and your PR card would be revoked.

Also, now that I have an year old baby born during my stay outside canada, so how do i bring my baby to canada? can I sponsor him?
You should only begin sponsorship process after you satisfy the RO and renew your PR card. Before then, any attempt at sponsorship could result in you losing your PR status instead.

In the meantime you can apply for TRV for your family to visit Canada, but if it's refused there's nothing you can do and you'll need to plan to be apart from them and not see them for at least 2-3 years.
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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I concur in the observations offered by Rob_TO

But I would further note:

If you have not been in Canada since the fall of 2011, it is virtually certain a 44(1) Report will be issued at the airport POE AND also at that time a Removal Order. The reason for this is the absence from Canada for more than 1095 days. No complex computations are necessary to identify that a PR who has been abroad for 1095 consecutive days is in breach of the PR residency obligation.

If you have any potential H&C arguments, be prepared to make those at the POE upon your arrival. Odds are better of persuading POE officers to give the H&C pass than the odds of winning an appeal once a Removal Order is issued. Be sure to have all supporting documentation (for the H&C argument) in your hands, not in checked baggage.

In the past, it appears CBSA was at least a little more lenient, if not generous, toward PRs who were still within the first five years of landing and who were at least close to being able to meet the PR residency obligation (counting all past days present in Canada plus days potentially present up to the fifth year anniversary of landing, which is not the date the PR card expires but the date exactly five years after the day of landing). The sooner you come to Canada the better.

Unless you have some very good H&C arguments, April 2015 is probably too late. At that point you will be pushing being short by around 300 days or so (and outside Canada for nearly four years), and that is relying on counting every day as present in Canada between then and the anniversary of your landing in April 2016.
 

GRV

Star Member
May 5, 2009
119
1
Thanks a lot Dpenabill & Rob, that really answers it all.

I know i'm in a risky situation of loosing PR. Also one more thing, My wife & I both have the PR but our child doesn't as he was not born in Canada.
So what would be the likely way to plan things, as we were thinking I would go alone, initially, for couple of months get things settled & then call them up. But how can we get TRV i.e. process & maximum time of stay it can be issued. Cz we both wont be able to leave Canada for atleast 2 years (at a stretch) but how does that put our child's visa scenario.

Can you guys pls advise the best possible way to go about it.

Regarding the reason I could not come back to Canada was:
1. I left Canada cz I was sick (visited the hospital in Canada as well in the last week before flying back) - kidney stones. In India got the treatment done wherein i took ard 6 months to recuperate.
2. Due to that my company put me on Indian project & side by side we planned a baby and just couldnt plan for Canada.
3. Now we are trying to get things in place again n hoping for the best to see if things can work for us in Canada. So analyzing every scenarios so as to be prepared in advance.

Will wait for your responses & advise.

Once again thanks guys & appreciate for all the help you guys are doing.

Thanks
GRV
 

scylla

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It's impossible for any of us to say if your child will be granted a TRV. The TRV may be approved or it may not. If the TRV is refused then you can try applying for a TRP. Again, this TRP may be approved or it may not.

If nothing is approved then one of you (let's assume your wife), will have to remain in your home country with your child when you return to Canada and live there for two years to meet the residency obligation and renew your PR card. Once your PR card is renewed, you will then have to apply to sponsor both your wife and your child.

If the TRV or TRP is approved, then you will be able to bring your child with you to Canada and apply once the two years have passed and both you and your wife meet the residency obligation.

If you do not want to be parted from your family, then I would apply for your child's TRV first. If it's approved, you can then travel to Canada together. If not, then you will have to decide whether you go alone or if you decide to give up your future in Canada.

Note that your illness could be used as an H&C reason for failing to meet the residency obligation - however this only kep you in your home country for six months. Your employment and baby will not be accepted as H&C reasons for failing to meet the residency obligation.
 

GRV

Star Member
May 5, 2009
119
1
Appreciate your reply Scylla. Thanks

Now this gives rise to another set of questions ???, I searched regarding TRV & TRP on net. Based on which, following are my doubts:

For TRV: Length of stay can range from a month to max. 1 year. Now is it possible to apply for the extension of TRV from within Canada? Cz in my case if my baby gets a TRV for say max year, then someone would have to come back to my home country accompanying him (say my wife). then my wife wont be able to enter Canada on PR as RO is not met so might get reported or revoked or we would have already crossed the PR expiry date. So is it possible to apply for TRV extension from within Canada cz I would need the length of stay to be ard 2 years or so.

For TRP: "A Temporary Resident Permit (TRP) may be issued, at the discretion of Canadian Immigration Authorities, to individuals who would otherwise be inadmissible to Canada because of health or criminality issues, permitting them to enter or stay in Canada, where justified by compelling circumstances. "
Now, what does this mean? I hope my baby can apply for TRP based on my wife & I already a PR?

"A Temporary Resident Permit may be issued for a period not to exceed three years and may be extended from inside Canada." This seems fine.

Also, Pls advise whether I should apply for TRV first or TRP? and when I apply can this bring forward the fact that I have not met with RO to the concerned authorities.

Regarding providing the H&C reasons- What all proofs are required to make your case strong in terms of illness ?

Thanks
GRV
 

Rob_TO

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GRV said:
Now this gives rise to another set of questions ???, I searched regarding TRV & TRP on net. Based on which, following are my doubts:
You need to apply for a TRV for him.

Regarding providing the H&C reasons- What all proofs are required to make your case strong in terms of illness ?
Doctor, hospital and medication notes and records during entire time.

As was mentioned though, this will only explain 6 months of your time away. The other 2.5+ years is your personal decision due to your work/family, and these are NOT counted as H&C considerations when you fail to meet RO, not matter what proof you may have.
 

GRV

Star Member
May 5, 2009
119
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Hey thanks Rob.
What about the TRV extension, can it be applied from within Canada?
Cz I wanna plan accordingly on the length of stay for my child.
 

canuck_in_uk

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dpenabill said:
If you have not been in Canada since the fall of 2011, it is virtually certain a 44(1) Report will be issued at the airport POE AND also at that time a Removal Order. The reason for this is the absence from Canada for more than 1095 days. No complex computations are necessary to identify that a PR who has been abroad for 1095 consecutive days is in breach of the PR residency obligation.
It is not virtually certain. As per the experiences of this forum, it is actually fairly rare that people are reported at POE for not meeting the RO. The majority of the time, CBSA just gives them a warning.


GRV said:
What about the TRV extension, can it be applied from within Canada?
Understand that there is a difference between a TRV, which is an entry visa that allows a person into Canada, and visitor status, which allows them to stay in Canada. You would need to extend their visitor status; this can easily be done online http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/visit/extend/visa.asp.
 

MarioYYZ

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Mar 2, 2014
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If you have not been in Canada since the fall of 2011, it is virtually certain a 44(1) Report will be issued at the airport POE AND also at that time a Removal Order.
Apologies for going off-topic, but I was wondering how accurate the above info is: I always thought that a removal order was issued only after an inadmissibility hearing has been conducted, and then by referral from the minister. CBSA issues these orders at a POE nowadays ?? I thought CBSA only enforced them, meaning after an appeal has been lost they issue a departure certificate on the passenger's way out...
 

dpenabill

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Re: extent to which POE officers are likely to issue 44(1) reports followed by the issuance of a Removal Order:

MarioYYZ said:
Apologies for going off-topic, but I was wondering how accurate the above info is: I always thought that a removal order was issued only after an inadmissibility hearing has been conducted, and then by referral from the minister. CBSA issues these orders at a POE nowadays ?? I thought CBSA only enforced them, meaning after an appeal has been lost they issue a departure certificate on the passenger's way out...
I address the procedure pursuant to which the Removal Order is issued toward the end of this long post.

This is hardly off-topic, but really goes to the core of how the PR Residency Obligation is enforced. There are, after all, only a few scenarios in which a PR's compliance with the PR Residency Obligation typically arises:

-- PR abroad without a currently valid PR card applies for a PR Travel Document

-- PR applies for a replacement/renewal PR card

-- PR makes some other application to CIC which might trigger an assessment of the PR's status; example: application to sponsor a family member for a family class PR visa

-- and when a PR is at a POE seeking re-entry into Canada

A PR in breach of the Residency Obligation but who is in Canada can readily avoid a residency examination by not leaving Canada and not making any applications to CIC for a new card or to sponsor a family member or such.

But if a PR in breach of the residency obligation is abroad, the PR has little choice: apply for a PR Travel Document if the PR does not have a currently valid PR card, or approach a Canadian POE seeking entry with a currently valid PR card. Not every returning PR is scrutinized for residency obligation compliance. The vast majority probably are not. But if there is an apparent breach, the risk of questions about residency are elevated, and the more obvious the breach, the greater the risk of a residency inquiry, and the greater the risk of being issued a 44(1) report.

You might notice that in my post I distinguished past practices. There were, as canuck_in_uk alludes to, many reports in the past of PRs returning to Canada and not issued the 44(1) report at the POE despite being in breach of the PR Residency Obligation.

But not all breaches of the PR Residency Obligation are created equal.

In particular, I strongly disagree with the statement itself, by canuck_in_uk, however, in multiple respects, but especially as it relates to someone who has been outside Canada for more than three consecutive years.

canuck_in_uk said:
It is not virtually certain. As per the experiences of this forum, it is actually fairly rare that people are reported at POE for not meeting the RO. The majority of the time, CBSA just gives them a warning.
In addition to and apart from the trend of CBSA (and CIC) to increase scrutiny and enforcement relative to the PR residency obligation, and the expanded utilization of enhanced technology at the POE, in conjunction with more thoroughly scanning travel documents into the system, which serves to identify suspected instances of PR RO breaches, my statement about the virtual certainty of a 44(1) report being issued was explicitly predicated on the situation posed here by the OP: where it has been more than three years since the last time the PR was in Canada.

A breach of the PR RO is obvious on its face if a PR approaches the POE and in response to the question "when was the last time you were in Canada?" (or another variation thereof, such as "how long have you been out of Canada?" among other similar ways of asking the same thing), gives an answer that is in effect more than three years ago.

Many PRs in breach of the RO have traveled to and from Canada occasionally over the course of time. They may not even be asked questions related to compliance with the PR residency obligation. My sense is that the risk goes up the longer the last absence, but because all we see in this forum (and other forums) are sporadic reporting, compared to the many, many thousands of PRs who come and go, many of whom are in breach or close to being in breach, it is impossible to really know just what the odds for any particular individual are.

Many PRs who are working abroad are aware of this and will deliberately make periodic trips to Canada, knowing that the more recent the last entry is the less likely a POE officer will even make a referral to secondary, let alone having an officer in secondary pursue a residency compliance examination.

Many of the PRs who are given an admonition, rather than issued a 44(1) report, are only a little in breach of the obligation, and will usually have a fairly understandable and sympathetic reason. Moreover, as I also alluded to in my previous post, at least in the past CBSA POE officers seemed to be somewhat lenient, if not outright generous toward PRs still within the first five years of being a PR, and who are finally coming to Canada to settle in Canada albeit a bit late.

None of those appear to apply to the OP's query here, it already being more than three years since the last time the OP was in Canada, and anticipated return to Canada is still many months off.

To be clear: being absent from Canada for a total of more than three years during the five years that count (for new PRs that is the five years from date of landing to date of the fifth year anniversary of landing; for everyone else it is five years going backwards from the date of the residency examination) is a breach of the PR residency obligation. To what extent this amount of absences is apparent to POE officers varies. For many it may not be even apparent the PR is close to, let alone already exceeding the limit of absences, and even when it is apparent the PR might be in breach, unless it is obvious, if the PR appears to be returning to Canada to actually live in Canada, the scales tend to tip favourably on the PR.

But the PR who was last in Canada more than three years previous, well, there is no question about that being in breach unless the PR has persuasive H&C grounds (or one of the exceptions applies, such as accompanying a Canadian citizen abroad).

But to also be clear, in the past many PRs in breach of the obligation deliberately made misrepresentations to POE officers about how long they were outside Canada, and got away with this easily. Many traveled to and from Canada via the U.S., if they could, because it was easier to avoid the higher degree of scrutiny typically part of airline travel. This is a significant part of what recent initiatives with the U.S. are intended to address; in particular, at some point (perhaps already), all PR's exits to the U.S., by whatever means, are supposed to be (1) collected by the U.S. border officers, and (2) CBSA will have direct access to that information. In other words, Canada has recently taken steps to move toward capturing both exits and entries (and the U.S. likewise is given access to all of Canada's entry data). That is, going forward, record of U.S. entries are accessible and, for CBSA purposes, are a record of exits from Canada.

The crux of it is that CBSA has a mandate to screen and enforce Canada's immigration laws including, specifically, screening the admissibility of returning PRs. The vast, vast majority of PRs going through a POE have no hint of an admissibility issue. For those that do, I don't think there is any doubt, the border is getting tougher, and is likely to continue to get tougher for the near future anyway. (If the Conservatives do not continue to constitute the government after next year's election, the trend may change or at least soften some.)

I recognize that generally a PR in possession of a currently valid PR card is far less likely to encounter difficult questioning at a POE than one whose card is expired. While technically the date the card expires is not at all relevant to an admissibility issue, the apparent practice at the border is to presume a PR in possession of a currently valid PR card is admissible. But again, the PR who has been abroad for more than three consecutive years is so blatantly in breach, the odds of getting a pass at the POE go down dramatically . . . again, unless there are persuasive H&C grounds.


Procedure for issuance of Removal Order:

You are correct that if a POE CBSA immigration officer finds cause to issue a 44(1) inadmissibility report based on a breach of the PR Residency Obligation, that does not constitute a conclusive determination. It is, indeed, just a report. The report is then given to the Minister's delegate who is the one deciding whether or not to issue a Removal Order.

My understanding is that who is a "Minister's delegate" for this purpose is extremely broad, if not loose. There have been cases in which the same officer who issued the 44(1) report attempted to issue the Removal Order. This was, of course, ruled to be invalid (for obvious reasons, the main one being that the procedure itself clearly calls for the exercise of judgment and discretion by someone other than the officer initiating the report). But it illustrates the level of officers ostensibly wearing the mantle of the "Minister's delegate."

In any event, the typical practice (as best I understand it) is for a supervising CBSA officer at the POE to act as the Minister's delegate, and the "hearing" is conducted there at the POE soon following the initial officer's decision to issue the 44(1) report. Some cases in the IAD decisions reflect situation in which the "Minister's delegate" is at another location, another POE, and the hearing is conducted by telephone.

End result is that the typical process involves the determination, by the initial interviewing CBSA immigration officer, that the PR is inadmissible due to a breach of the PR Residency Obligation, and issues the 44(1) report, followed by the referral then and there to the "Minister's delegate," that being just another CBSA officer, usually a superior one. If the Minister's delegate agrees with the officer issuing the report, a Removal Order is issued and delivered there to the PR.

The Removal Order is NOT then immediately enforceable. The PR should be then allowed to proceed into Canada, and the PR has a specified period of time in which to file an appeal. If no appeal is filed, the Removal Order becomes enforceable, thus in effect a departure order. If an appeal is filed, the Removal Order is not enforceable unless and until the appeal is decided against the PR.

The CBSA POE officer does have other options. As already mentioned, the office may issue a caution or admonition. This is probably accompanied by the entry of a notation in FOSS for the PR. A flag. The officer may do that and also send a referral to the local CIC office, which may or may not trigger an inquiry at the local CIC office, which could lead to the PR being called in for a residency examination. The officer may hold off on preparing and issuing the 44(1) report, prepare and issue it later, in which case it will be sent to the PR and I do not know what the process is then relative to a Minister's delegate making a determination as to whether or not a Removal Order will issue. I believe that whatever that process is, the PR has an opportunity to submit proof of compliance or make submissions regarding H&C grounds excusing the breach.

But, again, for the returning PR who has been abroad for more than three consecutive years, particularly if significantly more than three years, the breach is obvious, blatant, and the outcome is, I think, very predictable. (Allowing, again, either some successful deception as to how long the PR has been abroad, or the presentation of persuasive H&C grounds.)
 

canuck_in_uk

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dpenabill said:
In particular, I strongly disagree with the statement itself, by canuck_in_uk, however, in multiple respects, but especially as it relates to someone who has been outside Canada for more than three consecutive years.
You can disagree as much as you want. That doesn't change the fact that what I said is true. Even those who have been out of Canada for more than 3 consecutive years are usually able to enter Canada without being reported. Try reading some actual cases here on the forum instead of simply quoting legalese, most of which nobody probably bothers to read. You should really try to be a bit more succinct in your posts.
 

GRV

Star Member
May 5, 2009
119
1
Thanks all of you for your help, I got most of the answers I was looking for, as I said earlier all of those helping here are doing a fantastic work, really appreciate that.
Will get back here if i get stuck, though will look for the visitor visa/status extension thing as of now. still not clear on the length of stay & apply for extension within Canada.
But no worries will search more on the same.

Thanks
GRV
 

scylla

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canuck_in_uk said:
You can disagree as much as you want. That doesn't change the fact that what I said is true. Even those who have been out of Canada for more than 3 consecutive years are usually able to enter Canada without being reported. Try reading some actual cases here on the forum instead of simply quoting legalese, most of which nobody probably bothers to read. You should really try to be a bit more succinct in your posts.
100% agree. Regardless of what the rules actually say - the reality is that people who have been outside of Canada for more than 3 years seem to be able to re-enter most of the time without issue. Lots and lots of evidence of this on this forum...
 

PMM

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Jun 30, 2005
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Hi

scylla said:
100% agree. Regardless of what the rules actually say - the reality is that people who have been outside of Canada for more than 3 years seem to be able to re-enter most of the time without issue. Lots and lots of evidence of this on this forum...
Ah but that may change somewhat in the new year, when the ETA kicks in. If a PR who hasn't met their Residency decides to fly to Canada as a visitor, they have to apply for an ETA online. When this happens, the fact that they are/were a PR is going to pop up, which probably will lead to questions by CBSA as to their status.