Father is being detained and we're being deported!

[Flori]

Ohh, I know, "I have an idea too, after we deport all the illegal immigrants" let's find what race commits the most crime, and lets put them all in jail before they commit any crime, that way we would be saving thousands of lives, and reducing criminality to zero. Ohh wait, I think they have done similar things in the past haven't they?? Maybe the Nazis, or the KKK??? It's that the path you wanna follow??.

You are forgetting that the illegal immigrants already broke the law.  That is why they call them illegal, you know.

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed,  or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

Remember the fact those are the current laws, doesn't mean they are right. In some places its illegal for women to drive a car, and vote, or prostitution its legal, while in some other it isn't.
200 years ago slavery was permitted, and it was illegal for afroamericans to be in certain places, that doesn't mean that is right. Maybe in 10 years we'd realize how screwed up the system is, and things change.

 

[frolic]

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed, or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

You're just arguing semantics now. Breaking a law is a crime, therefore they are a criminal. Although I guess your point is that it is a less serious crime than say a murder or assault. Here in Canada you could go to jail for up to 2 years and/or receive a fine of $50,000. I would say this differs in magnitude than say a speeding ticket of $120, wouldn't you?

 

[Flori]

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed,  or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

You're just arguing semantics now.  Breaking a law is a crime, therefore they are a criminal.  Although I guess your point is that it is a less serious crime than say a murder or assault.  Here in Canada you could go to jail for up to 2 years and/or receive a fine of $50,000.  I would say this differs in magnitude than say a speeding ticket of $120, wouldn't you? 

Yes, BUT ACCORDING TO YOU, BREAKING THE LAW IS A CRIME, AND SPEEDING IS A CRIME, SO A CRIMINAL IS A CRIMINAL, THERE'S NOT SEMANTICS IN THAT. JUST PLAIN OLD COMMON SENSE.

 

[Leon]

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed, or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

Just because you don't agree with the law doesn't mean you are allowed to break them. If you want to change the law, you can protest them in other ways.

And yes, if I ever smoke a joint, feel perfectly free to call me a criminal too.

 

[Flori]

You are forgetting they broke an IMMIGRATION law, thats why they are shouldn't be call criminals. You break the law when you speed,  or when you make a illegal U turn, or when you download a song without paying on the internet. Or when you smoke a joint, SHOULD WE CALL YOU CRIMINAL TOO?

Just because you don't agree with the law doesn't mean you are allowed to break them.  If you want to change the law, you can protest them in other ways.
You are tottaly right, haven't you notticed I've never argued that point?
And yes, if I ever smoke a joint, feel perfectly free to call me a criminal too.
OK This is what I mean, Leon, then if WE ARE ALL CRIMINALS or at least 99% of the global population, if WE ALL HAVE COMMITED CRIMES CONSTANTLY OR AT SOME POINT OF OUR LIVES, why are we picking up on the illegal workers? Why do we judge them like if we got any right to do so??If you are a criminal too, I'm a criminal, frolic is a criminal, why all the fuzz and why does it upset you so much the illegal workers in particular? Ohh yeah, they "skipped" the queue of immigration, or they came in when they were allowed to do so, hey but why should frolic speed then, why should he had the advange of putting other people's life in risk just to merely get sooner to his destination, or why if it its illegal to smoke weed do you have the privilege of doing in it just to merely have fun or satisface your desires, and now I quote something somebody here said about illegals "not obeying the rules because it doesn't suit their needs". We all do that to be honest, I'm not saying they aren't breaking any rules, but WE are, in no way different than them.
You have a right to demand that you keep your job over somebody who is not allowed to work, but other than that, I don't think there's much to recriminate them for. NOW IMAGINE A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE SOCIETY CALLING YOU CRIMINAL, WOULDN'T YOU FEEL DISCRIMINATED?? JUST LIKE HOMOSXUALS, AND BLACK PEOPLE AND JEWS FELT??

You people have a hypocratic sense of love for the laws, where you said you despise immigrants because they are breaking the laws, but you break them all the time too, and that's OK for you right? So I guess your whole argument is IT'S OKAY FOR A LEGAL RESIDENT TO BREAK THE LAWS BECAUSE HE CAME HERE LEGALLY, BUT ITS NOT OK FOR A FOREIGNER TO BREAK THEM.
WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S OKAY FOR NEITHER ONE OF THOSE. IF THEY GET CAUGHT, THEY SHOULD BE DEPORTED. IF YOU GOT CAUGHT BREAKING THE LAW YOU SHOULD BE PUNISHED. END OF THE HISTORY, BUT NOBODY SHOULD BE MISSTREATED FOR THAT.
In response to this Frolic
" Do you agree that people should break a law to improve their way of life?"
In my opinion, LAWS should have more MERCY for an illegal immigrant who broke the law to better him/herself and give them a chance to their family future, and who didn't hurt or threat anybody, than for somebody who steal, and kidnap, or commit fraud. But any case should be analized individually by the COMPETENT AUTHORITIES, not by you, or me.
Now think more about what a guy here said I think it sheed us some light and we never even mention it.
Whatever the history, at this moment, right here right now my humanity comes forward not some abstract
concept of citizenship (which will be real when all mouths have been fed and rested, which is not the case here).I DIN'T SAY IT BEFORE BUT THANK YOU SUBATOMIC. THAT WAS A GREAT THOUGHT. I believe if more people act and think like you, this world would be definetly better.

 

[Mel2904]

Funny how you never mention anything in your posts about your criminal fellow citizens who hire those criminal illegal immigrants. Isn't that strange...
Or they are maybe not criminals according to you?
Oh poor frolic, do you have a selective memory all of the sudden. Did you not have your coffee yet, poor guy?

I'll tell you why you forget. It's not a selective memory, there is no memory at all. How many times did you read in the newspapers that employer gets charged for hiring illegal immigrants. NONE. It's always the illegal getting caught, detained and deported. Even if you did, the ratio of employers being actually convicted to illegals being deported is probably 1:100,000. IT'S ALWAYS THE ILLEGALS WHO ARE PRESENTED AS BEING THE BAD GUYS AND CRUSHING SOMEONE'S COUNTRY ECONOMY, and they never or rarely penalize the employer. Do you know why?
You know why very well, you just don't wanna admit it because you're too much of a hypocrite. Because the prosecution of those would cost way too much and not even close enough to cover the "damage" (mumbojumbo that you persistently write about) illegals caused. Plus they know that cash never left the country. IT STAYS IN.
Sooner or later, the guy who is hiring illegals for five bucks an hour will eventually cash out that money for something in HIS country, be assured he's not gonna go to Mexico. Let's say it's a downpayment for a new house. He has to pay property tax to Uncle Sam and at the end, it all pours into one big fat piggy jar that the U.S. collects.

The reason you are not mentioning all this is probably of a personal nature, I sense somewhat envy in your posts toward illegals. Probably because you've experienced some excessive hardship when you were doing it the proper way, but at the same time THINK, and only think, that they have it the easy way. Oh boy, can you be more wrong.

 

[frolic]

Funny how you never mention anything in your posts about your criminal fellow citizens who hire those criminal illegal immigrants. Isn't that strange...
Or they are maybe not criminals according to you?
Oh poor frolic, do you have a selective memory all of the sudden. Did you not have your coffee yet, poor guy?

Must I accuse YOU of not reading either? From my above post my feelings about them are quite evident as well...

working under the table for an unscrupulous employer

The employer is also at fault too.

Since this is a discussion about illegals working and what punishments they deserve I only brushed by it but yes you are right, they are commiting a crime and more enforcement there should be done as well.
So since you missed that you proceeded to make a bunch of assumptions and claim things that don't seem to be based on any proof or thought.

Even if you did, the ratio of employers being actually convicted to illegals being deported is probably 1:100,000.

100,000 to one...well maybe since there are 300,000 illegals in Canada that could be the case just because of the numbers of illegals to the numbers of companies... but would be nice if you could show that stat somewhere more reputable than just your say so.

Sooner or later, the guy who is hiring illegals for five bucks an hour will eventually cash out that money for something in HIS country, be assured he's not gonna go to Mexico.

He might go to Mexico on vacation you know. I've been, it's quite nice with wonderful people. I highly recommend it.

The reason you are not mentioning all this is probably of a personal nature, I sense somewhat envy in your posts toward illegals. Probably because you've experienced some excessive hardship when you were doing it the proper way, but at the same time THINK, and only think, that they have it the easy way. Oh boy, can you be more wrong.

Now you are just trying to put words in my mouth. I am a Canadian citizen and have gone through the legal process already and my wife and stepson are here and it only took 4 months. For me to be envious of people who chose not to do things the proper way would be silly.

Really everyone has choices..

Follow the rules like I did, it is hard work I know, maybe impossible even, apply to immigrate, and become a welcome, appreciated, part of your adopted country.

Break the rules, become illegal, feel hunted all your life, be an outcast to most of the rest of society, and live making a few extra dollars but be unable to participate and take advantage of many of the benefits that a country provides because you are not really part of it.

Or accept your lot in life and make where you live a better place by applying hard work and good judgement.

Illegals have chosen their way, they don't aim for the best outcome, they take the middle road...they have made their bed and now they must lie in it.

 

[Mel2904]

Legislators should come up with a more "selective" law about ilegals because I know a couple who are good people, wouldn't hurt a fly. Just don't have any other choice, as you may think that everybody does, they're trying to make their way in Canada. Hopefully things are gonna change, I for one am certainly gonna vote for that.

The reason I get agitated with your posts is that you are coming down a lil' bit too harsh and too judgemental on ilegal immigrants when you probably don't know any in person. Not that you need to know. Example is that you labeled Canadian employers as unscrupulous but illegal immigrants as criminals (you didn't even notice it), and just now you corrected yourself.

But hey, everybody's entitled to an opinion so let's just leave it there...

 

[frolic]

Legislators should come up with a more "selective" law about ilegals because I know a couple who are good people, wouldn't hurt a fly.

This I agree with...if someone makes one poor choice and comes to live in Canada illegally but can show they are productive, otherwise law abiding, tax paying, responsible people, with no health or older criminal issues then I have no problem with them being examined and allowed to convert themselves into a legal immigrant.

Example is that you labeled Canadian employers as unscrupulous but illegal immigrants as criminals (you didn't even notice it), and just now you corrected yourself.

Actually I would say that you are just making assumptions. Just because I gloss over the employers and thier criminality and fail to even mention murderers and rapists and speeders and war criminals does NOT imply I think they are not criminals. You chose to make that leap of thought yourself. So stop trying to put words into my mouth and work on staying on topic.

 

[Mel2904]

Not trying to put words in your mouth. I just think that since this is, like you say, "a discussion about immigrants and punishment they deserve" then you should also be objective and look at it from the immigrants perspective and what's even more important, about the causes of illegal immigration in general. And the truth is, if there weren't unscrupulous employers there wouldn't be criminal immigrants. They're the ones luring them back with cash jobs. And hey, who doesn't wanna get paid cash? If they stopped doing it there wouldn't be anything the guy would come back for. Don't you think? You keep feeding the dog, he will always come back.

"We have met the enemy and he is us"-Walt Kelly

 

[frolic]

I just think that since this is, like you say, "a discussion about immigrants and punishment they deserve"

Actually what I said was illegals...as in illegal aliens. Giving them the title immigrant would portray them with a certain sense of legality that they do NOT deserve. And in fact would be an insult and demeaning to many immigrants who came here legally, the proper way, and without breaking any laws. What about their perspective eh?

What causes it? How about this? The main cause of illegal aliens is people who do not follow the 10th commandment, "thou shall not covet". Since they are all guilty of wanting their neighbors wealth and prosperity and take action on it by sneaking into their neighbors country to get a piece of that wealth for themselves.


And yes I put that in as a reply to you specifically since you already used some religious quotes in this discussion.

 

[Mel2904]

Actually what I said was illegals...as in illegal aliens. Giving them the title immigrant would portray them with a certain sense of legality that they do NOT deserve. And in fact would be an insult and demeaning to many immigrants who came here legally, the proper way, and without breaking any laws. What about their perspective eh?

what about their perspective? You're the only one bitching here about how you should be more praised and respected then someone illegal, when the reality is that you probably had much much better chances and oportunities (education) back home in your country for succesfully applying and obtaining the citizenship opposed to some illegals who didn't have that chance at all. Sometimes you can't just "create" those chances no matter how hard you try.

What causes it? How about this? The main cause of illegal aliens is people who do not follow the 10th commandment, "thou shall not covet". Since they are all guilty of wanting their neighbors wealth and prosperity and take action on it by sneaking into their neighbors country to get a piece of that wealth for themselves.

Did it ever cross your mind they don't want to "covet" but rather have to? And do they really literally take food from your or your child's mouth at the end of the day? Don't think so. If it got out of hand like that then guvernment would already take more serious approach to this whole issue and get rid of them, don't you think Mr. "blowing it out of proportions"?

Here's another one for you I bet you didn't know: Live and let live!

 

[links18]

The Canadian immigration system is going to take some hits over the recent court decision that declared the guy (an immigrant) who beheaded someone on the Greyhound bus in Manitoba last summer not criminally responsible. The family of the victim is raising questions about the immigration system in the media. Just be glad you are not in the US, where an openly anti-immigrant demagogue hosts a nightly television "news" show and spares no opportunity to insinuate the country is being invaded. Of course, that show is also available in Canada on most major cable and satellite providers.

Of course he's not criminally responsible. The guy was a normal average joe doing a normal average job and all of a sudden he flips and boards a bus and chops somebody's head off. Obviously he had some kind of psychotic break.

The immigration system has really nothing to do with it unless he was known in his homeland previously for hacking ppl's heads off and CIC missed it and let him immigrate. Nobody knows beforehand who will get a psychotic break and do something crazy. There might be some warning signs shortly before it happens but not years before. It's just as likely that it might happen to a Canadian as an immigrant.

I agree with you. Unfortunately, the victim's family does not see it that way and have been criticizing CIC for letting the guy in. I am actually surprised that the news story seems to have mostly died out now. That probably wouldn't have happened in the US, where it would have been on Lou Dobbs for weeks.

 

[frolic]

what about their perspective? You're the only one bitching here about how you should be more praised and respected then someone illegal, when the reality is that you probably had much much better chances and oportunities (education) back home in your country for succesfully applying and obtaining the citizenship opposed to some illegals who didn't have that chance at all. Sometimes you can't just "create" those chances no matter how hard you try.

Sure I did not create all my chances myself. Some of them were earned by my father or grandfather along the way of my families history. And you know what...they did it all without breaking a law to do it. Seems you have no respect for the laws and no respect for those around you who do things properly all due to sympathy for someones plight.

So in your eyes it is ok to break these laws and rationalize it because of some justification. Maybe that bank robber needed the money for his starving child at home?

I could tell them the same...live and let live...as in live your life and don't break the laws of my life.

 

[Mel2904]

...they did it all without breaking a law to do it.

You don't know that.

Maybe that bank robber needed the money for his starving child at home?

With no other options, perfectly good justification. Most people would. I would. You wouldn't. That's what makes us different.

..live your life and don't break the laws of my life.

Finally we agree on something.
Over & Out!