BCguy
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- Jul 26, 2008
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- 16-03-1976
Escaping from Africa.
- Thread starter KGB
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I think we have driffted away from the main topic. Did the whites occupy the African land?
Did they treat non whites as their slaves? Were they in possession of African wealth for several decades? Were the blacks deprived of their wealth for generations?
All these questions have terrible answers. Both whites & blacks have now agreed to live in peace and harmony. Those who were in power for centuries now feel deprived at the hands of those who were once untouchables. There are bitter questions and bitter answers , but at the end there is no way out than to recognise the facts and respect one another.
All the killings must stop.Who will do it? not the out siders but the people of that land.whatrver the colour they have, white, black, brown or yellow all are human being created by the same God. Loss of human life is tragidic, but champions of human rights kill the fellow humen in the name of "Human Rights". Can we forgive & forget ? Lets help those who need it , without prejudice,discrimination or being judgemental. Lets help those in pain, you will have a better retun from the creator.
Did they treat non whites as their slaves? Were they in possession of African wealth for several decades? Were the blacks deprived of their wealth for generations?
All these questions have terrible answers. Both whites & blacks have now agreed to live in peace and harmony. Those who were in power for centuries now feel deprived at the hands of those who were once untouchables. There are bitter questions and bitter answers , but at the end there is no way out than to recognise the facts and respect one another.
All the killings must stop.Who will do it? not the out siders but the people of that land.whatrver the colour they have, white, black, brown or yellow all are human being created by the same God. Loss of human life is tragidic, but champions of human rights kill the fellow humen in the name of "Human Rights". Can we forgive & forget ? Lets help those who need it , without prejudice,discrimination or being judgemental. Lets help those in pain, you will have a better retun from the creator.
KGB you've lost this one.
As to your initial question I am one South African on my way out, although I'm unsure as to how the new changes to the immigration regulations in Canada might affect my application, but as many we wait in anticipation.
As to your various comments I think your referral to "genocide" is quite a way off. I served proudly in the South African Police for 12 years having resigned 6 years ago, and believe me I have seen the brutality of what people are capable of, be it black against white, white on white, or what ever. The fact remains that crime affects everyone.
As to your initial question I am one South African on my way out, although I'm unsure as to how the new changes to the immigration regulations in Canada might affect my application, but as many we wait in anticipation.
As to your various comments I think your referral to "genocide" is quite a way off. I served proudly in the South African Police for 12 years having resigned 6 years ago, and believe me I have seen the brutality of what people are capable of, be it black against white, white on white, or what ever. The fact remains that crime affects everyone.
"I phoned up an economist friend who is a professor at my university (one of the top economics department in the world) specializing in sub-saharan Africa. I showed him your posting and his reply was "There is a reason why I work here and those 4 are there".
(I take it that "there" refers to africa.)
“It seems your economics lecturer does not have a very high regard for Africa”
So he specializes in sub-saharan Africa, and he thinks the lecturers here are backwards. (interesting)
Let me simplify my argument.
-If you have one man cutting the lawn he can cut the entire lawn slowly. Point A
-If you have two men cutting the lawn they can cut the entire lawn faster. Point B
-If you have 5 men working in one garden:
-If 5 lawnmowers are operated on one lawn at the same time they will keep on cutting each others electrical cables this will result in a drop in productivity. Point C
Do you see how the total productivity per worker drops.
Remember my argument is not that black people were not oppressed.
My argument is that 30000000 uneducated people are not as valuable to 4 000 000 educated people as you might think.
(I take it that "there" refers to africa.)
“It seems your economics lecturer does not have a very high regard for Africa”
So he specializes in sub-saharan Africa, and he thinks the lecturers here are backwards. (interesting)
Let me simplify my argument.
-If you have one man cutting the lawn he can cut the entire lawn slowly. Point A
-If you have two men cutting the lawn they can cut the entire lawn faster. Point B
-If you have 5 men working in one garden:
-If 5 lawnmowers are operated on one lawn at the same time they will keep on cutting each others electrical cables this will result in a drop in productivity. Point C
Do you see how the total productivity per worker drops.
Remember my argument is not that black people were not oppressed.
My argument is that 30000000 uneducated people are not as valuable to 4 000 000 educated people as you might think.
KGB
Come on KGB. The are more than one variable or equation to look at. You base your theory on an assumption without collecting any data to prove your theory. You are a university student. Use your common sense as well. Are you basing everything on just productivity of low skilled workers. Employers did not employ more than what was required. Sufficient amount of low skilled workers were employed and the rest of the low skilled people did not have jobs and had to go back to the farms or hang around and look for other jobs.
YOU make 2 points that are not justified.
1)I quote “The point is that white people were not helped by the large number of “low skilled workers”. There were NO advantages for white people resulting from the suppression of black people as many people think. [We are not in ancient Egypt any more everyone (society as a whole) benefits from educating the population]”.
2)I quote “The only advantage according to most people might be that South Africa was one of the safest countries in the world (in white areas) before black people were allowed to integrate into white areas. (I would not know about this since I was very young in 1994“.
Black Schools Vs White Schools. This is advantage 1 to whites.
White houses Vs Black Houses. This is advantage 2 to whites. (Ratio in population of total number of poor whites/total whites Vs total number of poor blacks/total blacks)
White transportation Vs Black Transportation. This is advantage 3 to whites. More Blacks have to use public transportation which as you know is very dangerous and a hard life.
I can go on and on about White peoples advantages. You are very intelligent without a doubt however you are letting crime cloud your mind from common sense and history.
I moved from South Africa due to crime and I’m not white and I’m not the only one who was affected. My car was stolen and my shoes were stolen while I was jogging, yes this is true, 2 men with knives came for my shoes and I was lucky as cars were driving by and stopped. My sibling had a near death experience during a car hijacking incident.
My spouse applied for a job in her field and got a work permit before we left South Africa. It will take about a year to do everything from verifing university degrees to LMO to Medicals to work permit. Try and get a job which will make it an easier route to Canada.
Come on KGB. The are more than one variable or equation to look at. You base your theory on an assumption without collecting any data to prove your theory. You are a university student. Use your common sense as well. Are you basing everything on just productivity of low skilled workers. Employers did not employ more than what was required. Sufficient amount of low skilled workers were employed and the rest of the low skilled people did not have jobs and had to go back to the farms or hang around and look for other jobs.
YOU make 2 points that are not justified.
1)I quote “The point is that white people were not helped by the large number of “low skilled workers”. There were NO advantages for white people resulting from the suppression of black people as many people think. [We are not in ancient Egypt any more everyone (society as a whole) benefits from educating the population]”.
2)I quote “The only advantage according to most people might be that South Africa was one of the safest countries in the world (in white areas) before black people were allowed to integrate into white areas. (I would not know about this since I was very young in 1994“.
Black Schools Vs White Schools. This is advantage 1 to whites.
White houses Vs Black Houses. This is advantage 2 to whites. (Ratio in population of total number of poor whites/total whites Vs total number of poor blacks/total blacks)
White transportation Vs Black Transportation. This is advantage 3 to whites. More Blacks have to use public transportation which as you know is very dangerous and a hard life.
I can go on and on about White peoples advantages. You are very intelligent without a doubt however you are letting crime cloud your mind from common sense and history.
I moved from South Africa due to crime and I’m not white and I’m not the only one who was affected. My car was stolen and my shoes were stolen while I was jogging, yes this is true, 2 men with knives came for my shoes and I was lucky as cars were driving by and stopped. My sibling had a near death experience during a car hijacking incident.
My spouse applied for a job in her field and got a work permit before we left South Africa. It will take about a year to do everything from verifing university degrees to LMO to Medicals to work permit. Try and get a job which will make it an easier route to Canada.
To “Rupeshhari”:
-First of all, (to your friend) nice word “meritocracy”=”government by persons selected for merit” [I had to look it up]. (I think I will use it if future.)
-“You know, killing the Jews did not benefit Germans too, but this does not make Holocaust any less bad.”
I agree!!!
-“you should agree that oppression did benefit one section of the society (perhaps not OPTIMALLY)”
Lets agree on non optimal benefit if extensive unemployment is used (like your friend and KSN mentioned).
- “We will trivialize the Holocaust if we start discussing why it did not benefit the Germans and it was just as bad for Germans”
I do not mean to trivialize the German Holocaust, if you find my discussion topic unsympathetic I apologize. Law and B-com law might have desensitized me to the moral impediment of the topic. (In my view I see it as a case study)
- Why don't you PM with your arguments so we don't subject other fellow immigrants to our rants.
I rarely ever get emotional about a subject so I am very unlikely to rant?
To “KSN”:
-“You base your theory on an assumption without collecting any data to prove your theory”.
Actually I base my theory on “other peoples theory” without collecting any data to prove my theory.
“Are you basing everything on just productivity of low skilled workers? Employers did not employ more than what was required. Sufficient amount of low skilled workers were employed and the rest of the low skilled people did not have jobs and had to go back to the farms or hang around and look for other jobs.”
-Your comment on “use of unemployment” to counter an extensive slump in productivity is very well taken.
-No, I do not base” everything on productivity of low skilled workers” but it would take a very long time to draw a EDGARWORTH-BOX and set my theory out in terms of “omsydigheids-krommes” (Indifference curves), Production possibility curves and a resulting budget line.
Black Schools Vs White Schools. This is advantage 1 to whites.
White houses Vs Black Houses. This is advantage 2 to whites. (Ratio in population of total number of poor whites/total whites Vs total number of poor blacks/total blacks)
White transportation Vs Black Transportation. This is advantage 3 to whites. More Blacks have to use public transportation which as you know is very dangerous and a hard life.
-I would of curse contend that these advantages were not gained as result of suppression.
-I do however agree that the black disadvantage was caused by the suppression.
I moved from South Africa due to crime and I'm not white and I'm not the only one who was affected. My car was stolen and my shoes were stolen while I was jogging, yes this is true, 2 men with knives came for my shoes and I was lucky as cars were driving by and stopped. My sibling had a near death experience during a car hijacking incident.
-Sorry to hear that. I was also mugged by two men after teaching Chess at an underprivileged school, and they have broken into my house so many times I have stopped counting. Lastly my debating partner was shot to death 8 months ago while sleeping in his own bed.
-Crime may be starting to affect my judgment, but I hope to rectify the situation by immigrating to British Columbia.
Thanx for your advice on the work permit.
-First of all, (to your friend) nice word “meritocracy”=”government by persons selected for merit” [I had to look it up]. (I think I will use it if future.)
-“You know, killing the Jews did not benefit Germans too, but this does not make Holocaust any less bad.”
I agree!!!
-“you should agree that oppression did benefit one section of the society (perhaps not OPTIMALLY)”
Lets agree on non optimal benefit if extensive unemployment is used (like your friend and KSN mentioned).
- “We will trivialize the Holocaust if we start discussing why it did not benefit the Germans and it was just as bad for Germans”
I do not mean to trivialize the German Holocaust, if you find my discussion topic unsympathetic I apologize. Law and B-com law might have desensitized me to the moral impediment of the topic. (In my view I see it as a case study)
- Why don't you PM with your arguments so we don't subject other fellow immigrants to our rants.
I rarely ever get emotional about a subject so I am very unlikely to rant?
To “KSN”:
-“You base your theory on an assumption without collecting any data to prove your theory”.
Actually I base my theory on “other peoples theory” without collecting any data to prove my theory.
“Are you basing everything on just productivity of low skilled workers? Employers did not employ more than what was required. Sufficient amount of low skilled workers were employed and the rest of the low skilled people did not have jobs and had to go back to the farms or hang around and look for other jobs.”
-Your comment on “use of unemployment” to counter an extensive slump in productivity is very well taken.
-No, I do not base” everything on productivity of low skilled workers” but it would take a very long time to draw a EDGARWORTH-BOX and set my theory out in terms of “omsydigheids-krommes” (Indifference curves), Production possibility curves and a resulting budget line.
Black Schools Vs White Schools. This is advantage 1 to whites.
White houses Vs Black Houses. This is advantage 2 to whites. (Ratio in population of total number of poor whites/total whites Vs total number of poor blacks/total blacks)
White transportation Vs Black Transportation. This is advantage 3 to whites. More Blacks have to use public transportation which as you know is very dangerous and a hard life.
-I would of curse contend that these advantages were not gained as result of suppression.
-I do however agree that the black disadvantage was caused by the suppression.
I moved from South Africa due to crime and I'm not white and I'm not the only one who was affected. My car was stolen and my shoes were stolen while I was jogging, yes this is true, 2 men with knives came for my shoes and I was lucky as cars were driving by and stopped. My sibling had a near death experience during a car hijacking incident.
-Sorry to hear that. I was also mugged by two men after teaching Chess at an underprivileged school, and they have broken into my house so many times I have stopped counting. Lastly my debating partner was shot to death 8 months ago while sleeping in his own bed.
-Crime may be starting to affect my judgment, but I hope to rectify the situation by immigrating to British Columbia.
Thanx for your advice on the work permit.
kbg y dont you apply uk skilled worker immigration visa? its faster and i think you r qualified enuf for it...
{You know, killing the Jews did not benefit Germans }
Killing of Jews,Christians,Muslims are follower of any religion doesnot benefit any one, Germans, British,Dutch or Americans.
{We will trivialize the Holocaust if we start discussing why it did not benefit the Germans and it was just as bad }.
Was there a Holocaust at all ? it is questionable. If it was actually experianced by the jews they wouldn't have behaved the way they they are with Palistinens.
{you should agree that oppression did benefit one section of the society }
Oppression doesnot benefit the oppressors who so ever they may be, British, Dutch, German or American.
Killing of Jews,Christians,Muslims are follower of any religion doesnot benefit any one, Germans, British,Dutch or Americans.
{We will trivialize the Holocaust if we start discussing why it did not benefit the Germans and it was just as bad }.
Was there a Holocaust at all ? it is questionable. If it was actually experianced by the jews they wouldn't have behaved the way they they are with Palistinens.
{you should agree that oppression did benefit one section of the society }
Oppression doesnot benefit the oppressors who so ever they may be, British, Dutch, German or American.
Thank you for your suggestion “Sonia”. I will definitely look into the United Kingdom or the Netherlands if my parents do not qualify to emigrate under the “NEW LIST” as teachers.
I enjoy studying and I think I will try to get a few more degrees, so immigrating to Canada (for example as an international student) will not be a problem for me since I can leave immediately to go study at the University of British Columbia and then immigrate under the “Canadian Experience Class”.
My parents might have a problem if they are not on the “new list” of Foreign skilled workers.
Can you recommend the United Kingdom as a good place to live? (I have never been there.)
I enjoy studying and I think I will try to get a few more degrees, so immigrating to Canada (for example as an international student) will not be a problem for me since I can leave immediately to go study at the University of British Columbia and then immigrate under the “Canadian Experience Class”.
My parents might have a problem if they are not on the “new list” of Foreign skilled workers.
Can you recommend the United Kingdom as a good place to live? (I have never been there.)
If I agree with your logic.would you like answering second part ?
If it was actually experianced by the jews they wouldn't have behaved the way they are with Palistinens.
If it was actually experianced by the jews they wouldn't have behaved the way they are with Palistinens.
yes kgb i think if you want to leave africa soon then uk is best choice for you n i think youll b able to take your parents too http://www.ukvisas.gov.uk/en/
try the assessment of tier 1 (highly skilled workers) i hope you'll qualify for it
try the assessment of tier 1 (highly skilled workers) i hope you'll qualify for it
Defiant Like you I would rather avoid unnecessary discussion on this topic. oppressed at the end are oppressed and oppressors remain oppressors. Lets find a solution for KGB,rather than distracting from the main point.
sonia, Leon , BCguy and my self suggested that KGB if really feels threatened in South Africa , he should seek refuge in a foreign country or apply for immigration to UK, Canada, Australia etc.
I suggesteted that he should also consider moving to his ancestereal home country where he may have inherant rights. we now leave it to his judgement to act as he deems fit. Good luck to him & his family.
sonia, Leon , BCguy and my self suggested that KGB if really feels threatened in South Africa , he should seek refuge in a foreign country or apply for immigration to UK, Canada, Australia etc.
I suggesteted that he should also consider moving to his ancestereal home country where he may have inherant rights. we now leave it to his judgement to act as he deems fit. Good luck to him & his family.
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