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Email from CIC that PR card renewal needs secondary review

dpenabill

VIP Member
Apr 2, 2010
6,436
3,183
Expedited or urgent processing:

Expedited or "urgent" processing is always discretionary.

The IRCC representative's statement that PRs in SR are not eligible for urgent processing is probably a practical observation more than a fixed rule. I say this because we have seen at least some reports from PRs whose application was in SR apply for urgent processing and soon get issued a new PR card (albeit they were apparently in the later stages of SR, perhaps about to be issued a PR card anyway). Rather than being a fixed rule, for the PR whose application is in SR, as a practical matter it is probably the case that IRCC will ordinarily decline to exercise its discretion to provide expedited processing precisely because IRCC has already decided that additional inquiry or investigation is warranted before issuing a new PR card. That sort of inquiry or investigation is not the sort of thing done in an expedited manner.

This makes sense. When the case is referred to SR that means IRCC has identified a reason to suspect the applicant is NOT entitled to a PR card. Why would a bureaucracy suddenly agree, just because the individual says he or she needs it, to urgently issue a PR card to someone who the bureaucracy has already decided needs to be investigated before they should be issued a PR card?

I understand that many of those who are subject to SR strongly believe there is not a good reason for the SR. That, in effect, SR is unfair. I cannot comment on the why and how of any particular individual's case, but it is fairly easy to recognize that generally, usually, perhaps the vast majority of the time, there is a factual reason why IRCC decided more inquiry or investigation was warranted. Argument to the contrary lacks credibility and comes (mostly even though not entirely) from a self-interested perspective. And in the meantime, if and when IRCC resolves its concerns, as indicated in reports from many who have gone through the SR process, IRCC will issue and deliver the new PR card.



No PR is trapped in Canada because of SR:


tonymiz said:
This is ridiculous!!! So basically you will be trapped here just because they are very slow!! If they are not sure about my residency, why didn't they ask immediately? I can give them tons of paperwork to prove it!! This doesn't add up frankly!

I also paid already for my tickets and I am travelling in November..
They will only respond if this goes to the media.. I am very disappointed in the liberals who promised to reduce the backlog, it seems it is getting worse!
I never thought I will ever vote for Cons, but it looks like that is what I do when I get my Citizienship!!
No PR is trapped in Canada by how IRCC handles a PR card application. A PR card is not a Travel Document which facilitates a PR's travel abroad. Most countries, if not nearly all, do not recognize the PR card as a Travel Document. Typically a PR needs a passport or some other kind of Travel Document to travel abroad . . . and if the PR has a valid passport or other Travel Document, not having a PR card in no way restricts the PR's travel.

Not having a PR card will, however, impose at least some inconvenience when trying to travel to Canada from abroad. But again, not having a PR card in no way restrains a PR from traveling abroad. And, the PR who can prove status and compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is entitled to obtain a PR Travel Document for the return to Canada. This can be inconvenient, very inconvenient, but the difficulty of doing so is often greatly exaggerated. For those who want to make a relatively short trip abroad, the timeline is perhaps the bigger inconvenience.

While some media attention might be attracted, it is not likely to have much if any impact since, really, PRs are not trapped, their travel abroad not restricted, because the PR card is not sooner renewed.

Even if the practical impact of making it more difficult to return to Canada is considered to in some way restrict a PR's capacity to travel abroad, that does not compromise or restrict any Charter right. The Charter only protects a PR's mobility within Canada (only citizens have a protected Charter right relative to international travel, which is simply the right to leave and the right to enter Canada, since Canada cannot dictate or control whether another country will allow a Canadian to travel to that country).


What recourse is there if the SR is unfounded, unfair?

Perhaps Mandamus. But even in regards to eligibility for a writ of Mandamus, it comes back to the fact that a PR is not actually restricted or limited in the exercise of any benefit, entitlement, or privilege due to a delay in issuing a PR card because there is a referral to SR. One would have to successfully argue that the inconvenience is so severe as to amount to being deprived of the statutory entitlement to enter Canada. But even this argument is flawed, because the PR is entitled to enter Canada whether the PR has a PR card or not, so long as the PR can establish identity and PR status (which an expired card or CoPR will do, unless PR status has in fact been terminated). The problem is typically getting to Canada. Once at a PoE, the PR is entitled to entry even without a PR card.

I have, however, seen cases in which Mandamus was granted, and an order to actually deliver a PR card was made by the Federal Court. The circumstances of such cases, it warrants cautioning, are very specific and the outcome perhaps unique or at least rare.

The practical reality is that PR's in SR have little choice but to either go ahead and travel, and rely on obtaining a PR TD for the return to Canada trip, or to wait. The choice is the PR's.

A PR whose application is in SR but who is otherwise very confident of his or her proof of status and PR RO compliance, probably should go ahead and travel and apply for and obtain the PR TD while abroad. Even if it is denied, so long as the PR TD application was made within a year of the last date the PR was in Canada, at the least the PR will be entitled to a special PR TD allowing the PR to return to Canada pending an appeal of the denied PR TD. And again, if the PR is confident in his or her proof, this is one way to get it adjudicated.

Additionally, there have even been some reports of multiple-entry PR TDs being issued.
 

tonymiz

Star Member
Jul 2, 2016
148
7
dpenabill said:
Expedited or urgent processing:

Expedited or "urgent" processing is always discretionary.

The IRCC representative's statement that PRs in SR are not eligible for urgent processing is probably a practical observation more than a fixed rule. I say this because we have seen at least some reports from PRs whose application was in SR apply for urgent processing and soon get issued a new PR card (albeit they were apparently in the later stages of SR, perhaps about to be issued a PR card anyway). Rather than being a fixed rule, for the PR whose application is in SR, as a practical matter it is probably the case that IRCC will ordinarily decline to exercise its discretion to provide expedited processing precisely because IRCC has already decided that additional inquiry or investigation is warranted before issuing a new PR card. That sort of inquiry or investigation is not the sort of thing done in an expedited manner.

This makes sense. When the case is referred to SR that means IRCC has identified a reason to suspect the applicant is NOT entitled to a PR card. Why would a bureaucracy suddenly agree, just because the individual says he or she needs it, to urgently issue a PR card to someone who the bureaucracy has already decided needs to be investigated before they should be issued a PR card?

I understand that many of those who are subject to SR strongly believe there is not a good reason for the SR. That, in effect, SR is unfair. I cannot comment on the why and how of any particular individual's case, but it is fairly easy to recognize that generally, usually, perhaps the vast majority of the time, there is a factual reason why IRCC decided more inquiry or investigation was warranted. Argument to the contrary lacks credibility and comes (mostly even though not entirely) from a self-interested perspective. And in the meantime, if and when IRCC resolves its concerns, as indicated in reports from many who have gone through the SR process, IRCC will issue and deliver the new PR card.



No PR is trapped in Canada because of SR:


No PR is trapped in Canada by how IRCC handles a PR card application. A PR card is not a Travel Document which facilitates a PR's travel abroad. Most countries, if not nearly all, do not recognize the PR card as a Travel Document. Typically a PR needs a passport or some other kind of Travel Document to travel abroad . . . and if the PR has a valid passport or other Travel Document, not having a PR card in no way restricts the PR's travel.

Not having a PR card will, however, impose at least some inconvenience when trying to travel to Canada from abroad. But again, not having a PR card in no way restrains a PR from traveling abroad. And, the PR who can prove status and compliance with the PR Residency Obligation is entitled to obtain a PR Travel Document for the return to Canada. This can be inconvenient, very inconvenient, but the difficulty of doing so is often greatly exaggerated. For those who want to make a relatively short trip abroad, the timeline is perhaps the bigger inconvenience.

While some media attention might be attracted, it is not likely to have much if any impact since, really, PRs are not trapped, their travel abroad not restricted, because the PR card is not sooner renewed.

Even if the practical impact of making it more difficult to return to Canada is considered to in some way restrict a PR's capacity to travel abroad, that does not compromise or restrict any Charter right. The Charter only protects a PR's mobility within Canada (only citizens have a protected Charter right relative to international travel, which is simply the right to leave and the right to enter Canada, since Canada cannot dictate or control whether another country will allow a Canadian to travel to that country).


What recourse is there if the SR is unfounded, unfair?

Perhaps Mandamus. But even in regards to eligibility for a writ of Mandamus, it comes back to the fact that a PR is not actually restricted or limited in the exercise of any benefit, entitlement, or privilege due to a delay in issuing a PR card because there is a referral to SR. One would have to successfully argue that the inconvenience is so severe as to amount to being deprived of the statutory entitlement to enter Canada. But even this argument is flawed, because the PR is entitled to enter Canada whether the PR has a PR card or not, so long as the PR can establish identity and PR status (which an expired card or CoPR will do, unless PR status has in fact been terminated). The problem is typically getting to Canada. Once at a PoE, the PR is entitled to entry even without a PR card.

I have, however, seen cases in which Mandamus was granted, and an order to actually deliver a PR card was made by the Federal Court. The circumstances of such cases, it warrants cautioning, are very specific and the outcome perhaps unique or at least rare.

The practical reality is that PR's in SR have little choice but to either go ahead and travel, and rely on obtaining a PR TD for the return to Canada trip, or to wait. The choice is the PR's.

A PR whose application is in SR but who is otherwise very confident of his or her proof of status and PR RO compliance, probably should go ahead and travel and apply for and obtain the PR TD while abroad. Even if it is denied, so long as the PR TD application was made within a year of the last date the PR was in Canada, at the least the PR will be entitled to a special PR TD allowing the PR to return to Canada pending an appeal of the denied PR TD. And again, if the PR is confident in his or her proof, this is one way to get it adjudicated.

Additionally, there have even been some reports of multiple-entry PR TDs being issued.
Thank you dpenabill for your input, but PRTD is not convenient at all... Most of people here get 2 weeks off for the whole year.. So we cannot have 1 month vacation waiting for the PRTD. If you look here, many visa offices are taking more than 4 weeks to issue a PRTD. I cannot risk leaving the country and rely on the visa office to issue a PRTD in 2 weeks. Why not give us a travel authorization before we leave canada? I am not saying that SR are unnecssary, I know there are a lot of fraud cases, but I do not think IRCC needs one year to figure this out.. If they need proof, we would very gladly provide all proof they want.. Why waste their time and ours?

Anyway, i still have couple of minths so I am hoping this will come to an end soon.. I might get my citizenship before my PR card :) .. Which is a ridiculous too!! It seems PR and citizenship are completely handled independently!!
Enough nagging for today but people here are losing patience!
 

rbrar14

Star Member
Jul 21, 2016
103
0
tonymiz said:
Thank you dpenabill for your input, but PRTD is not convenient at all... Most of people here get 2 weeks off for the whole year.. So we cannot have 1 month vacation waiting for the PRTD. If you look here, many visa offices are taking more than 4 weeks to issue a PRTD. I cannot risk leaving the country and rely on the visa office to issue a PRTD in 2 weeks. Why not give us a travel authorization before we leave canada? I am not saying that SR are unnecssary, I know there are a lot of fraud cases, but I do not think IRCC needs one year to figure this out.. If they need proof, we would very gladly provide all proof they want.. Why waste their time and ours?

Anyway, i still have couple of minths so I am hoping this will come to an end soon.. I might get my citizenship before my PR card :) .. Which is a ridiculous too!! It seems PR and citizenship are completely handled independently!!
Enough nagging for today but people here are losing patience!
I totally agree with the fact that if there are fraudulent cases and IRCC judt wants to verify our info, we will happily provide it. But why take years to process one application is extrmely frustrationg and ridicliously insane.!!!!!!
 

elliesun

Member
Sep 29, 2015
12
0
Hello Guys,
I'm back for some updates but no good news.
Here is my timeline on the cic website:
We received your application for a permanent resident card on April 20, 2015.
We started processing your application on July 15, 2015.
We sent you correspondence on July 15, 2015. If you have not yet provided the information or the requested documents, please do so as soon as possible. Please wait until you receive the correspondence before sending us additional information, as the correspondence will outline all information that is required.
We sent you a letter on July 15, 2015. Please consider delays in mail delivery before contacting us.

From other member shared timeline, I guess the estimated processing time for SR is about 14--15months. But seems mine case is not moving at all. I sent the urgent process request on May with my air ticket and got the email confirmation that my urgent process request has been received. I also submitted the ATIP early August it takes 30days, so no update for ATIP yet. But I called the CIC Call Center last week, the call center agent told me that my SR is not start to process yet, even they received my urgent process already but they can not process the case in urgent because it's under SR and also there are no estimate time for me. I guess I need continue to wait and wait.

I also checked with 2 lawyers about my case, they told me last year from May to July lots of people got SR and if I hired them to helps me work on my PR card they will using the same steps as I listed above. So I don't recommend to hire lawyer to waste money and got same results as yourself does.

I helped my father renewed his PR card on January 2016 and he only lived in Canada 6days extra than the renew requirement but he got his PR card on April with office review. So I guess I picked the wrong time to sent the application and really unlucky. But anyway, I need leave Canada on Sep. 9th I don't think I will get my new PR card before I leave. Good Luck with everyone and have a nice long weekend.
 

tonymiz

Star Member
Jul 2, 2016
148
7
Good luck Elliesun,

I have a feeling that it has something to do with summer vacations and also they were under pressure to bring down processing time from 180+days last year .. If you check now, new applications is taking only 80 days.. Last year it was 180 days during same period of time.. So maybe they put the effort to reduce timelines and did not care about SR because SRs do not impact the timeline on their website.. I am hoping now that after processing time is down to 80, and summer is over, they will start looking at our applications..
Good lick everyone!!
 

AnvarKurbanov

Member
Aug 31, 2016
14
1
rbrar14 said:
This is my timeline. No response from them till the december 11. But WHATS fishy to me is the 2nd line and 4th line starting appearing like 5 weeks ago. it did not appear when I got my email or correspondence for passport coloured copy. Does this mean anything to anyone here ????????????????????????????? I had to leave canada on july 28, 2015 because of family problem back home. so im stuck waiting outside canada to have my card mailed to canadian address. will cic know im outside country ? wont they mail me card because of this?



1. We received your application for a permanent resident card on July 2, 2015.
2. We sent you correspondence acknowledging receipt of your application(s) on January 11, 2016.
3. We started processing your application on January 11, 2016.
4. We sent you correspondence on December 11, 2015. If you have not yet provided the information or the requested documents, please do so as soon as possible. Please wait until you receive the correspondence before sending us additional information, as the correspondence will outline all information that is required.
The second sentence is probably added by a Processing center who deals with your SR.
If you are outside of the country you better start applying for TD, because there is a chance that if you are approved for PR you can be selected for a personal pick-up
 

rbrar14

Star Member
Jul 21, 2016
103
0
AnvarKurbanov said:
The second sentence is probably added by a Processing center who deals with your SR.
If you are outside of the country you better start applying for TD, because there is a chance that if you are approved for PR you can be selected for a personal pick-up
Thanks for taking the time to reply to my post @anvar kurbanov. Yes, my PR TD document situation is little complicated. Yes I will apply but I dont know when will they send in letter for pick up. My situation is explained on this post about Pr Td and current situation http://www.canadavisa.com/canada-immigration-discussion-board/will-cic-not-mail-in-pr-card-to-ur-address-if-they-know-you-have-left-canada-t448461.15.html#lastPost
 

heeradeepak

Hero Member
Jun 1, 2014
398
11
tonymiz said:
Good luck Elliesun,

I have a feeling that it has something to do with summer vacations and also they were under pressure to bring down processing time from 180+days last year .. If you check now, new applications is taking only 80 days.. Last year it was 180 days during same period of time.. So maybe they put the effort to reduce timelines and did not care about SR because SRs do not impact the timeline on their website.. I am hoping now that after processing time is down to 80, and summer is over, they will start looking at our applications..
Good lick everyone!!
Nothing impact due to summer vacations only one solution CIC need major overhaul they have to remove lazy officers.
 

vop

Star Member
Apr 9, 2016
90
4
heeradeepak said:
Nothing impact due to summer vacations only one solution CIC need major overhaul they have to remove lazy officers.
heeradeepak, we could try with a petition to the minister. There is a thread 'Secondary Review Petition' where we are trying to get as many people to provide some basic info to send a letter to the minister to make him aware so if you'd like to provide your data to AJK, he is collecting our names to send a letter to the Minister but we need more people to provide their info. Because otherwise, they will assume its an isolated problem. The department is falsely posting fake timelines because secondary reviews have none and the information is posted nowhere so they can tell the public that PR card renewals are 80 days so as to not create an uproar. They are also falsely telling the press that people who want their cards processed urgently can request for urgent processing. The minister doesnt get into the nitty gritty with the numerous problems at the department and in his most recent meetings with constituents in Surrey and Brampton, nobody brought up the issue of PR card renewal delays. That was a lost opportunity because he sees the timelines posted by the department and he literally thinks its 80 days. I know its a moot point now but if any of you live in ridings such as Surrey, or Brampton where you have access to more local media outlets, please try to reach out to the local reporters/MPs and ask them to inform you when the Minister visits so that at least you can show up or at a bare minimum, ask them to ask.
They keep saying that they are going to bring an overhaul to the system but they have been saying it for months and if its anything like Phoenix payroll, I wouldnt hold my breath. So even if they implement a new system, the old system has to function on the side or else, it will be an even bigger mess. I work in IT and I'm sure most of you do too and unless there is significant contingency planning, such roll outs lead to even more issues because I just dont think u can depend on the expertise of this department on any new system. A PR card renewal is one of the simplest cases to process so its a shame to put it mildly. A department that can supposedly process 25,000 people with no documents, then, giving the excuses that they have for PR card renewals is deplorable. Then again, I wanted a NDP government not a Liberal one but in the end, it was anything but the incompetent conservatives. Its just that the liberals are focused on family class, international students, as that was in their campaign commitment. Its a shame because most new immigrants who were put through the wringer by the conservatives by making many to wait up to 6 years to get their citizenship ended up voting for the liberals as they were so pissed off with the conservatives and instead of rewarding them and focusing on those who are here, automating the system, taking electronic applications for citizenships and PR card renewals, their focus is elsewhere.

So kindly asking those affected to provide their info so that we can send a petition to the minister.
 

marahmarah

Newbie
Sep 4, 2016
9
0
vop said:
heeradeepak, we could try with a petition to the minister. There is a thread 'Secondary Review Petition' where we are trying to get as many people to provide some basic info to send a letter to the minister to make him aware so if you'd like to provide your data to AJK, he is collecting our names to send a letter to the Minister but we need more people to provide their info. Because otherwise, they will assume its an isolated problem. The department is falsely posting fake timelines because secondary reviews have none and the information is posted nowhere so they can tell the public that PR card renewals are 80 days so as to not create an uproar. They are also falsely telling the press that people who want their cards processed urgently can request for urgent processing. The minister doesnt get into the nitty gritty with the numerous problems at the department and in his most recent meetings with constituents in Surrey and Brampton, nobody brought up the issue of PR card renewal delays. That was a lost opportunity because he sees the timelines posted by the department and he literally thinks its 80 days. I know its a moot point now but if any of you live in ridings such as Surrey, or Brampton where you have access to more local media outlets, please try to reach out to the local reporters/MPs and ask them to inform you when the Minister visits so that at least you can show up or at a bare minimum, ask them to ask.
They keep saying that they are going to bring an overhaul to the system but they have been saying it for months and if its anything like Phoenix payroll, I wouldnt hold my breath. So even if they implement a new system, the old system has to function on the side or else, it will be an even bigger mess. I work in IT and I'm sure most of you do too and unless there is significant contingency planning, such roll outs lead to even more issues because I just dont think u can depend on the expertise of this department on any new system. A PR card renewal is one of the simplest cases to process so its a shame to put it mildly. A department that can supposedly process 25,000 people with no documents, then, giving the excuses that they have for PR card renewals is deplorable. Then again, I wanted a NDP government not a Liberal one but in the end, it was anything but the incompetent conservatives. Its just that the liberals are focused on family class, international students, as that was in their campaign commitment. Its a shame because most new immigrants who were put through the wringer by the conservatives by making many to wait up to 6 years to get their citizenship ended up voting for the liberals as they were so pissed off with the conservatives and instead of rewarding them and focusing on those who are here, automating the system, taking electronic applications for citizenships and PR card renewals, their focus is elsewhere.
So kindly asking those affected to provide their info so that we can send a petition to the minister.



my timeline:
Application received 29/05/2015
Started processing 20/10/2015
Secondary review 21/10/2015

No news afterwords. Called few times only they answer waiting to verify with no timeline. It is now more than 15 months and waiting. My wife and 4 children are all canadian citizens.I met my RO 835 days.
 

AnvarKurbanov

Member
Aug 31, 2016
14
1
"vop" thanks for letting know about the petition. it was high time to unite the efforts. I zillion times called the call center, three letters to prime minister, MP was involved, three letters to the minister - zilch, so the petition and possibly venting our frustration out to the press, I would say, should be high on the agenda. let's start with the petition.
The TD they keep on referring to isn't an alternative when, as it was already mentioned in this topic earlier, most of people have only 2-week long vacation.
 

heeradeepak

Hero Member
Jun 1, 2014
398
11
AnvarKurbanov said:
"vop" thanks for letting know about the petition. it was high time to unite the efforts. I zillion times called the call center, three letters to prime minister, MP was involved, three letters to the minister - zilch, so the petition and possibly venting our frustration out to the press, I would say, should be high on the agenda. let's start with the petition.
The TD they keep on referring to isn't an alternative when, as it was already mentioned in this topic earlier, most of people have only 2-week long vacation.
If anyone can approach mainstream media and make them understand that how peoples are suffering from secondary review that sure be useful but for petition difficult to get required signatures.
 

AnvarKurbanov

Member
Aug 31, 2016
14
1
The petition, as I understood, is probably going out without initial 100 mark, so whoever interested, especially those who are already in, please provide AJK with your first and family name and last digits of your PR card