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Effective date of Bill C24

MUFC

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The CIC call centre is not reliable source of information about the cut off date. I came also to that conclusion long time ago.

The best we can do from now on is just wait for the official confirmation, because before that everything is just guessing looking at the crystal ball.
 
Mar 13, 2015
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For those who yet might believe that the precise date is known by some high level governmental functionaries, there is no evidence (known by anyone here) to suggest that such is true.

In his role in this matter the Governor in Council is largely symbolic. Only technically could he defy the high level decision to set the date of implementation of C-24. I strongly disagree with the intimation that Prime Minister Harper might have chosen a date, without due deference to the logistical considerations of CIC Minister Alexander.

Although it may be said that there exist political implications, attendant to the passage of C-24, it is absurd to think that sole factor of its IMPLEMENTATION, as well, is politically motivated. (Remember, the subject at hand is the date of IMPLEMENTATION). It would serve to resist the temptation to conflate any political purpose of C-24, with the date of its implementation, a constraint largely dependent upon the CIC’s readiness to accommodate applications under the new law.

As for the credibility of Call Centre representatives, the majority of whom are well-intentioned, even kind individuals, the mere fact that there is no consensus of opinion, even among supervisors, tends to speak for itself. On one occasion I had quoted a critical and highly germane official CIC communication, in response to which the representative stated “the Office of the Minister of the CIC does not always know how case files are managed, and often gives out inaccurate information”.

Representations made by Call Centre representatives are unofficial hearsay, and even if proven, cannot bind the CIC to any specific course of action. Read the disclaimers!

Unto all good faith applicants (you know who you are, even if the CIC hasn’t quite figured it out yet!), I hope that you receive your citizenship, without undue, or even due delay.

In closing, I quote the great American philosopher, Mark Twain (even he would have received an RQ, because that wasn’t his real name!)

Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't.
 

bkara

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I don`t understand how a notice of the implication date of the new residency obligations might impact the number of votes the conservative government will get.

you don`t change your political view with a change in law :S

what difference it will make if CIC says okay July 20th,2015 is the date?

it is totally nonsense to not having an implication date,if they do not,now in April 2015 since they said it would be law "within a year".I hope they do not make these decisions before they go to bed :))
 

asaif

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bkara said:
I don`t understand how a notice of the implication date of the new residency obligations might impact the number of votes the conservative government will get.

you don`t change your political view with a change in law :S

what difference it will make if CIC says okay July 20th,2015 is the date?

it is totally nonsense to not having an implication date,if they do not,now in April 2015 since they said it would be law "within a year"
I think its due to a wide-spread fallacy that the newly naturalized Canadian will be so grateful to the government that granted them citizenship quickly so they will vote to keep it :) For me (and for most people, I believe), it doesn't make any difference. Once I become Canadian, my voting decision will be based on totally different issues.
 

MUFC

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bkara,

The official notice is "... These provisions will come into force in approximately a year."

This statement leaves room for manoeuvre +- some amount of time.

If the statement was like you said "within a year" it would have been much more clearer that there is a deadline.

But from the official statement there is no clarification because there is no deadline.

Different people have different understandings about the timeframe as a scope from "Approximately".

They will push that to be effective before the elections because they will have a campaign before the elections in which they will definitely use that law as one of their positive accomplishments from their mandate, hence positive impression for their voters in order to attract more votes on their side.
 

us2yow

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However, In the end, the spin doctors can only do so much. People by now - and after all these years - know the hard way what is right from what is not.

Hopefully as the song goes... "They (I) can see clearly now..........."
 

dpenabill

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Apr 2, 2010
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Some observations and historical context:

While the Conservatives will undoubtedly refer to the various pieces of legislation they have adopted as accomplishments, including the SCCA, there are many other higher priority issues looming in the coming election campaign which totally overshadow the changes to the Citizenship Act, which by the way, even though not yet fully in effect, so far as public perception goes is a done deal, as in that was 2014.

From the Duffy duffiness trial and ongoing Senate scandalese in bad taste, like chilled camembert and crumbling crackers one might say, to the dark economic clouds rising from the collapse of oil prices, from budget wars and woes to overreaching security measures, from Cabinet members in flight to a suddenly and uncharacteristically gaffe plagued Defense Minister (Kenney, one of only a few Harper insiders still in the inner circle), lingering problems with Canada's rail system deeply mired in serious safety issues and declining infrastructure, with other immigration issues (the temporary workers looming largest) overshadowing fading memories of the claims there was widespread if not pervasive fraud in grants of citizenship (yesterday's problem one might say), not to mention the simmering resentment of many in the media, especially at CBC, due to limited access to information and axe-like cutting of budgets . . . there is a lot brewing in this election pot, and so far as I have seen, even Canada's most perspicuous pundits are hesitant to predict what the key issues will be, except that changes to the Citizenship Act are not on the radar.

Thus it is highly unlikely that election year politics are driving decision-making relative to the timing of fully implementing the amendments adopted into law in 2014.

Harper appears to want the election to be about who will keep Canada safe from threats of terrorism. The office pools are buzzing with bets about how Harper approaches the economy-related issues. And of course personalities themselves, especially Conservative efforts to paint Justin Trudeau as insubstantial if not immature, loom large. Among the other potential issues.

Details about qualifying for naturalized citizenship is out of range.



Top-down Harper government and more historical context:

Make no mistake about how top-driven this government is. The "Governor in Council" is really the Prime Minister's Office in consultation with some (not anywhere near all) Cabinet members. The decision as to the coming-into-force date is or will be made at the very top. These are decisions Stephen Harper either makes himself or delegates to a very small circle of close advisers.

Most indications are that even the implementation of OB 407 in 2012, which was a major overhaul of how citizenship applications are administratively processed, entirely an internal CIC function, was conceived, designed, engineered, and adopted down to the minute details from within a very small group of close advisers to the PM in the PMO (many think that it was almost entirely the work of Benjamin Perrin, PMO lawyer and one of Harper's most trusted and influential insiders until 2013; and while Bill C-24 did not get tabled until February 2014, there are suggestions that Perrin had a lot of input in the initial design of what would become the SCCA), and then in effect dumped on a CIC totally unprepared for the dramatic revision of processing implemented by the procedures prescribed in OB 407. Result was a disaster, largely due to the near total lack of any real or practical consultation with those in CIC who actually do the work.

Anyone who has watched video of Minister Chris Alexander talking about the SCCA should readily recognize he hardly even knows what the Act says let alone what its more complicated provisions mean or are intended to accomplish. That is because, like most of what Stephen Harper's government has done, Bill C-24 was probably written in the PMO, not by those working in CIC, and probably with minimal consultation with CIC.

For those of us following this story back in 2011, when Harper was rewarded for being the first sitting PM to be found in contempt of Parliament (Harper made the vote a "confidence" vote, thereby triggering the 2011 elections when the vote was against him) by winning a majority government in the election, and part of the platform was a promise to fix the Citizenship Act, scores of us were following that just as anxiously as many are now following the news about what the coming-into-force date will be. At that time I was among those potentially affected. The forums were rife with unsubstantiated reports and unfounded speculation, some saying that any day the government was going to put a pause on new citizenship applications while it adopted draconian new requirements, some saying they would be as severe as requiring five out of six years physical presence, or six out of eight years, among a wide range of other proposals, including a large number of posts asserting that it was certain the new requirements would be retroactive, applying to not just those who were already PRs but even those who had applications already in process.

The speculation continued right up to February 2014 when Bill C-24 was finally tabled. Despite the years of promises, statements, questions, and speculation, right up to the day before Bill C-24 was tabled very, very few had much of a clue, let alone any real knowledge, about what its provisions would be. I'd bet that Chris Alexander himself, Minister of CIC, barely got a glimpse of the proposed legislation until weeks before it was tabled. Nothing against Chris Alexander, but that is just how Harper has always done the government's business, very deep in-house.

After the 2011 election, despite Jason Kenney's repeated promises that a Bill to fix the Citizenship Act was coming soon, the years went by and Chris Alexander became the Minister of CIC and he too was making similar promises. In the spring of 2013, for example, just before Alexander became Minister of CIC, Kenney gave a talk to a group of immigration and citizenship lawyers, promising big changes before the end of the year, and the lawyers asked some very detailed questions about things like how many years of residence would the new law require. Kenney was extremely vague. None-the-less, articles in the media at the time parsed every vague insinuation, some commentators confidently reporting their version of what the new law would be, and nearly all of them confident the legislation was about to be tabled and would be law by the fall of 2013.

In retrospect, going back to the statements Kenney was making in the spring of 2013, which were soon echoed by Chris Alexander after he became Minister (July 2013), it appears less that Alexander was holding-his-cards-close-to-the-vest and more that he really did not know much more than what he was saying, largely parroting what Kenney had said previously. Alexander knew the PMO had some proposed version of what would become Bill C-24 in development, but probably knew virtually nothing of it in detail.

And this pattern has persisted throughout Harper's administration, from budgets which even most Conservative MPs had little clue about their content until the formal budget was tabled, to legislation like Bill C-23 last year, the legislation which amended the Elections Act which was rushed through the legislative process even more so than Bill C-24.


All that said, the answer is coming soon. Will not be long now, no more than ten or twelve weeks probably, at the most, and we will know.
 

MUFC

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Hmmm... dpenabill

When I read your observations about the past performance of this cabinet and keeping in mind that all these proposed regulations http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2015/2015-02-28/html/reg1-eng.php are still at the beginning stage, there is a sense that there is a little note of procrastination.

It seems that they still have a lot of work that needs to be done. All these business channels for sharing information between CIC, CRA, The border agency and so on... most probably involve creating secured computer networks. I remember one guy here have mentioned that he have had experience with similar software network development and implementation on a federal level projects and basically he said be ready for slightly delays, because there are always problems emerging with the software at the beginning.

It is a common sense from them to be sure that all the technical issues are solved and running smoothly before the cut off date. Meanwhile all the proposed regulations have to be done also before the cut off date.

At the same time like you said now they have more problems emerging so the focus might not be really on that citizenship issue.

It will be definitely interesting if they could be done in the next 3 months with all that work, moreover now they have complicated situation with the other problems in the country.

It will be interesting from now on, no doubt.
 

CanadianCountry

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Any procrastination in implementation is definitely welcome, but considering how Conservatives rushed the BillC24 through the House and got it into law, i have doubts that they will delay now.

MUFC said:
Hmmm... dpenabill

When I read your observations about the past performance of this cabinet and keeping in mind that all these proposed regulations http://www.gazette.gc.ca/rp-pr/p1/2015/2015-02-28/html/reg1-eng.php are still at the beginning stage, there is a sense that there is a little note of procrastination.

It seems that they still have a lot of work that needs to be done. All these business channels for sharing information between CIC, CRA, The border agency and so on... most probably involve creating secured computer networks. I remember one guy here have mentioned that he have had experience with similar software network development and implementation on a federal level projects and basically he said be ready for slightly delays, because there are always problems emerging with the software at the beginning.

It is a common sense from them to be sure that all the technical issues are solved and running smoothly before the cut off date. Meanwhile all the proposed regulations have to be done also before the cut off date.

At the same time like you said now they have more problems emerging so the focus might not be really on that citizenship issue.

It will be definitely interesting if they could be done in the next 3 months with all that work, moreover now they have complicated situation with the other problems in the country.

It will be interesting from now on, no doubt.
 

na123

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Dec 28, 2014
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dpenabill I really enjoy your posts and I don't know what you do, but you would definitely do well as a journalist, certainly much better than whatever is there nowadays. I remember people who wanted to apply in April2014-April2015 were all freaking out that they won't be able to apply yet here we are and all of them managed to apply. I will be applying by the end of May 2015 and I hope that I will be lucky enough to be able to do it, after all no matter what day the coming into force happens, some people will have to miss the deadline.
 

na123

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Dec 28, 2014
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CanadianCountry said:
Any procrastination in implementation is definitely welcome, but considering how Conservatives rushed the BillC24 through the House and got it into law, i have doubts that they will delay now.
I know there are websites that track "website" updates and changes, because when they will have the news release for the coming into force on the CIC website, the developers will have to test the functionality and the fonts of the release a couple of days before the release because it will be a lot of changes to the database. I am not a developer but the funny thing is that for people who watch and follow the NBA that exact same thing happened and people where able to correctly predict that Lebrom James will return to Cleveland about a month or two before the announcement.
 

CanadianCountry

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Dont know how it applies to BillC24 implementation.

na123 said:
I know there are websites that track "website" updates and changes, because when they will have the news release for the coming into force on the CIC website, the developers will have to test the functionality and the fonts of the release a couple of days before the release because it will be a lot of changes to the database. I am not a developer but the funny thing is that for people who watch and follow the NBA that exact same thing happened and people where able to correctly predict that Lebrom James will return to Cleveland about a month or two before the announcement.
 

MUFC

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That's the thing, now the ball is not only in the hands of the cabinet, now we have the technical factor in place, because it needs to run smoothly , hence tested some weeks before the cut off date and we have proposed regulations which according to me have started too late.
On top of that we have also more problems on the internal scale.

All those factors for me leads for little procrastination to be expected.
 

CanadianCountry

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To me the opinion that its going to take more time is only wishful thinking. The CIC had plenty of time since June 19, 2014 to work on these changes. There is high possibility that all the internal work is ALL done but the public notification phase has just started. Its highly probable that all work is already done and completely ready for implementation.

MUFC said:
That's the thing, now the ball is not only in the hands of the cabinet, now we have the technical factor in place, because it needs to run smoothly , hence tested some weeks before the cut off date and we have proposed regulations which according to me have started too late.
On top of that we have also more problems on the internal scale.

All those factors for me leads for little procrastination to be expected.
 

MUFC

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Yes that is also very possible scenario, we know that there is no transparency from them. All the background work might be already done and set/ready.

But I definitely have a feeling that the cut off date is still moving around the calendar and one day we just gonna see it done and implemented like the one from 1st of Aug last year, hence I don't expect any notice in advance from them anymore. That is just their style.