Does time as a visitor count towards Citizenship time
- Thread starter chikloo
- Start date
Yes - each day spent in Canada before PR counts as half a day towards citizenship provided you are applying under the current rules - and provided these six months fall within the four year period before she applies.
This will change once the new residency rules kick in. Time spent in Canada before becoming a PR doesn't count towards citizenship under the new rules.
This will change once the new residency rules kick in. Time spent in Canada before becoming a PR doesn't count towards citizenship under the new rules.
Thank You Scylla. It is within the four year period and she will qualify by Apr 2015 but I'm planning to add one month and send the paper by last week of May. I may extend it a but if CIC gives a firm date on which they implement 4/6.scylla said:
Waiting one month or more after you reach 1095 days will not make any difference as long as you are sure about the time spent in Canada and no trips are missed. I applied 1 or 2 days after I reached 1095. but I was suuuuuuure about all my entry/exits to Canada.chikloo said:
screech339
VIP Member
- Apr 2, 2013
- 552
- Category........
- Visa Office......
- Vegreville
- Job Offer........
- Pre-Assessed..
- App. Filed.......
- 14-08-2012
- AOR Received.
- 20-11-2012
- Med's Done....
- 18-07-2012
- Interview........
- 17-06-2013
- LANDED..........
- 17-06-2013
Time in Canada before PR counts towards citizenship under the old 3/4 rule. Once the new 4/6 kick in, Pre-PR days will no longer count.alexdive said:
Although not an "official" source, the CANADAVISA FAQ has this:
"Citizenship and Immigration Canada recognizes time spent legally in Canada prior to becoming a Canadian Permanent Resident towards the calculation of the 1095 days required to qualify for Canadian Citizenship. Within the four years prior to applying for Canadian Citizenship, each day spent in Canada as a non-Immigrant (i.e. as a visitor, international student, temporary worker) is counted as half a day, up to a maximum total credit of one year. Each day spent in Canada as a Permanent Resident is counted as one whole day."
"Citizenship and Immigration Canada recognizes time spent legally in Canada prior to becoming a Canadian Permanent Resident towards the calculation of the 1095 days required to qualify for Canadian Citizenship. Within the four years prior to applying for Canadian Citizenship, each day spent in Canada as a non-Immigrant (i.e. as a visitor, international student, temporary worker) is counted as half a day, up to a maximum total credit of one year. Each day spent in Canada as a Permanent Resident is counted as one whole day."
Caution: applicants relying on credit for time present in Canada prior to landing are often required to document the entry and status, by submitting a copy of the visa, visitor's record, or passport stamp for the entry, and for any subsequent entry into Canada prior to becoming a PR. Applicants without such documentation (such as someone who was visa-exempt and was waived through with no formal documenting the entry) can have difficulty proving entry with status.chikloo said:
In particular, while the applicable statutory provision does not specify status, there appears to be no doubt that the time in Canada must be with lawful status. The burden of proof is on the applicant, so if CIC questions the period of time, it may be incumbent on the applicant to prove not just presence but entry with status.
Were you able to count the days before permanent resident status (i.e. on a visitor visa) on you citizenship application?
We had submiited an application and included 1/2 time for 75 days on a visitor visa (within the four year period) prior to becoming a permanent resident. However, CIC told us at the interview that the visitor visa time does not count and has asked for copies of passport etc...maybe they need to look at entry exit stamps. We may have to see a citizenship judge but don't think this will help - Not sure what we should do now.
Would you be any chance have a copy of the citizenship application instruction guide from January 2015? I remember there was specifically nothing mentioned about not counting the visitor visa time on the instruction guide. Would like to quote this info back to CIC.
CIC has updated the instruction guide based on new rules in July 2015 and I do not have my copy from January 2015.
Would great appreciate if you can send it please. My email address is maxm2383@yahoo.ca
Many thanks
We had submiited an application and included 1/2 time for 75 days on a visitor visa (within the four year period) prior to becoming a permanent resident. However, CIC told us at the interview that the visitor visa time does not count and has asked for copies of passport etc...maybe they need to look at entry exit stamps. We may have to see a citizenship judge but don't think this will help - Not sure what we should do now.
Would you be any chance have a copy of the citizenship application instruction guide from January 2015? I remember there was specifically nothing mentioned about not counting the visitor visa time on the instruction guide. Would like to quote this info back to CIC.
CIC has updated the instruction guide based on new rules in July 2015 and I do not have my copy from January 2015.
Would great appreciate if you can send it please. My email address is maxm2383@yahoo.ca
Many thanks
screech339
VIP Member
- Apr 2, 2013
- 552
- Category........
- Visa Office......
- Vegreville
- Job Offer........
- Pre-Assessed..
- App. Filed.......
- 14-08-2012
- AOR Received.
- 20-11-2012
- Med's Done....
- 18-07-2012
- Interview........
- 17-06-2013
- LANDED..........
- 17-06-2013
If you submitted your citizenship application before the new 4/6 year rule kicked in, then your days as a visitor does count towards citizenship qualification. If you have submitted your application on or after June 12, 2015, then you will not be able to claim any visitor's days toward citizenship qualification.maxm said:
If you did submit your application before June 12, 2015, then the CIC agent is wrong by all counts to claim that visitor days does not count.
Thanks for your response.
Our application was submitted in March 2015 - when we went for our citizenship interview in mid-Sep 2015, the lady at the CIC counter in Edmonton counted the days in Canada, however did not give us credit for the time spent on visitor visa prior to becoming a permanent resident. She says the visitor visa time cannot be counted.
She has asked us to fill out form CIC form CIT 0171 (07-2014) E and provide copies of passports. Once they receive these documents, they will decide and and give us the option to either withdraw the application or see a citizenship judge. Not sure where this will lead to and looking on ideas for next steps.
Many Thanks
Our application was submitted in March 2015 - when we went for our citizenship interview in mid-Sep 2015, the lady at the CIC counter in Edmonton counted the days in Canada, however did not give us credit for the time spent on visitor visa prior to becoming a permanent resident. She says the visitor visa time cannot be counted.
She has asked us to fill out form CIC form CIT 0171 (07-2014) E and provide copies of passports. Once they receive these documents, they will decide and and give us the option to either withdraw the application or see a citizenship judge. Not sure where this will lead to and looking on ideas for next steps.
Many Thanks
This discussion is about the old requirements, the 3/4 residency requirement and does not apply to applications made after June 11, 2015:
Mostly, see the Jahanara Begum Khan decision.
CIC's position is that time visiting Canada prior to establishing an actual residence in Canada does NOT count.
In fact, CIC takes the position that this applies even after becoming a PR, let alone prior to becoming a PR. That is, that time in Canada after landing and becoming a PR does not begin to count unless and until the date the PR established residence . . . time visiting Canada prior to that, even as a PR, does NOT count.
At least some Federal Court justices agree. In particular, just last week Justice Locke specifically agreed in the Jahanara Begum Khan decision. (In the Jahanara Begum Khan case, Justice Locke deducted 18 days from the residency calculation, 18 days spent in Canada approximately a year after she landed, but concluded that she still had enough days after the implicit date actual residence was established.)
A longer but still incomplete response:
I do not have time to fully respond to the queries posted by maxm; I will attempt to do so later.
But there is an overriding issue which many, many are not aware of regarding which days get counted under the old law (pre-June-11-2015-requirements). Just this issue alone, however, demands a fairly long explanation.
This issue is highlighted in the response by screech339 to the following:
The interviewer was, thus, correct in so far as that is indeed CIC's position.
This applies even for those who landed and are a PR. CIC's position is that there is no credit for time in Canada before actual residence is established in Canada.
Thus, for PRs who do not settle in Canada right away after landing, CIC's position is that time the PR is in practice just visiting Canada as a PR will NOT count toward meeting the residency requirement.
And SOME Federal Court justices agree!
In fact this is explicitly stated in this very recent case, in the Jahanara Begum Khan decision, in which Justice Locke clearly articulates that time spent visiting Canada (even while a PR let alone prior to landing) prior to in fact establishing a residence in Canada does not count (this is in regards to the old law; the new law is strictly based on physical presence, not residency).
Ironically, because of the Jahanara Begum Khan decision, I have been drafting an update regarding recent developments including especially this issue. It is complicated stuff. I may or may not share that in this forum, assuming I complete it.
While only some Federal Court justices have agreed with this, it is almost universally accepted that if there is a shortfall (less than 1095 days APP), the beginning date for calculating days that count is the first date on which the applicant established a residence in Canada. So, for any applicant relying on a qualitative residency test, like Koo, days visiting in Canada prior to establishing residency definitely will not count.
The principle that mere arrival in Canada, the landing, does not necessarily show that the PR/applicant has established residence in Canada, goes back to at least the Wan Lau decision in 1999.
More particularly, many Federal Court decisions have said that the residency calculation does not begin until the date that in-fact residence has been established, going back to the Alexei Goudimenko decision and
the Ahmed decision, where the court stated (in both cases):
" . . . a two stage inquiry exists with respect to the residence requirements of paragraph 5(1)(c) of the Act. At the first stage, the threshold determination is made as to whether or not, and when, residence in Canada has been established. If residence has not been established, the matter ends there. If the threshold has been met, the second stage of the inquiry requires a determination of whether or not the particular applicant's residency satisfied the required total days of residence . . . "
This two stage inquiry, with the first stage being the threshold determination as to the date actual residence is established, has been affirmatively cited in numerous Federal Court decisions by many different justices. The difference comes in whether it applies to an applicant who was physically present in Canada for 1095+ days or only to those relying on a qualitative test. Justice Locke and a few others agree with CIC, that this is a threshold question for all applicants.
To a significant extent, this appears to fly in the face of many reports over time.
The reality is that CIC is selective in who it subjects to elevated scrutiny and, in effect, a more strict approach for assessing residency. Many, many applicants fly under the radar, so to say, and never encounter a strict application of technicalities in the calculation of their residency.
In the last six years or more I have seen many reports suggesting that for purposes of calculating physical presence, all that mattered was actual presence in Canada. Days present in Canada counted. Days present prior to becoming a PR, but still within four years, counted. All that mattered was that the applicant had legal status and could document the days present. What that status was in particular did not matter.
That said, there were periodic discussions in multiple forums about whether time in Canada as a visitor prior to landing would get the half-day credit. There never was any definitive answer (which has not stopped some from posting, wrongly, that there is a definitive answer).
And even Justice Locke's ruling in the Jahanara Begum Khan decision is not a definitive answer since the Federal Court's decisions are not binding and other Federal Court justices have said that this threshold question (date actual residence is established) only applies when using a qualitative test to assess residency.
But the Jahanara Begum Khan decision conclusively reflects what CIC's position is: time visiting Canada (even for a PR) prior to establishing residency in Canada does NOT count.
Moreover, CIC's position is inconsistent with how the online Residency Calculator worked.
So long as the time in Canada was within four years of the date of applying, the online calculator gave credit for any time present in Canada after landing. In fact, the online calculator did not allow applicants to put in a date later than the date of landing for the date they came to Canada to live. The calculator essentially forced the applicant to include this time.
In contrast, CIC has long argued that only time after actually establishing residence should count.
My Take-Aways
If this is a shortfall application, the odds of a successful outcome are dismal, perhaps virtually zero. Probably not worth pursuing.
Beyond that it is difficult to forecast. Obviously, if this time reduces the APP calculation to less than 1095, then it is a big issue. Whether or not one could successfully argue that given 1095 days of actual presence, it should count, may depend on the CJ.
I would note, for example, that in the Jahanara Begum Khan case, CIC had many larger concerns about the extent to which the applicant was residing in Canada. This goes back to the observation that in reality CIC is selective in who it subjects to elevated scrutiny and, in effect, a more strict approach for assessing residency. How strict CIC approaches this . . . how vehemently it urges a CJ to deny approval for example, or whether CIC will appeal a CJ's approval as it did in the Jahanara Begum Khan case, probably depends on the overall strength of the case and CIC's impressions.
Personally, depending on what I could afford of course, this is a case I would take to a lawyer.
In any event, there is no doubt that CIC will take the position that those days in Canada prior to landing, as a visitor, do NOT count. But I believe it will still be up to a CJ to decide (although this is not necessarily guaranteed under the new process).
Mostly, see the Jahanara Begum Khan decision.
CIC's position is that time visiting Canada prior to establishing an actual residence in Canada does NOT count.
In fact, CIC takes the position that this applies even after becoming a PR, let alone prior to becoming a PR. That is, that time in Canada after landing and becoming a PR does not begin to count unless and until the date the PR established residence . . . time visiting Canada prior to that, even as a PR, does NOT count.
At least some Federal Court justices agree. In particular, just last week Justice Locke specifically agreed in the Jahanara Begum Khan decision. (In the Jahanara Begum Khan case, Justice Locke deducted 18 days from the residency calculation, 18 days spent in Canada approximately a year after she landed, but concluded that she still had enough days after the implicit date actual residence was established.)
A longer but still incomplete response:
I do not have time to fully respond to the queries posted by maxm; I will attempt to do so later.
But there is an overriding issue which many, many are not aware of regarding which days get counted under the old law (pre-June-11-2015-requirements). Just this issue alone, however, demands a fairly long explanation.
This issue is highlighted in the response by screech339 to the following:
maxm said:
CIC absolutely takes the position that: no time in Canada counts until the applicant has established a residence in Canada.screech339 said:
The interviewer was, thus, correct in so far as that is indeed CIC's position.
This applies even for those who landed and are a PR. CIC's position is that there is no credit for time in Canada before actual residence is established in Canada.
Thus, for PRs who do not settle in Canada right away after landing, CIC's position is that time the PR is in practice just visiting Canada as a PR will NOT count toward meeting the residency requirement.
And SOME Federal Court justices agree!
In fact this is explicitly stated in this very recent case, in the Jahanara Begum Khan decision, in which Justice Locke clearly articulates that time spent visiting Canada (even while a PR let alone prior to landing) prior to in fact establishing a residence in Canada does not count (this is in regards to the old law; the new law is strictly based on physical presence, not residency).
Ironically, because of the Jahanara Begum Khan decision, I have been drafting an update regarding recent developments including especially this issue. It is complicated stuff. I may or may not share that in this forum, assuming I complete it.
While only some Federal Court justices have agreed with this, it is almost universally accepted that if there is a shortfall (less than 1095 days APP), the beginning date for calculating days that count is the first date on which the applicant established a residence in Canada. So, for any applicant relying on a qualitative residency test, like Koo, days visiting in Canada prior to establishing residency definitely will not count.
The principle that mere arrival in Canada, the landing, does not necessarily show that the PR/applicant has established residence in Canada, goes back to at least the Wan Lau decision in 1999.
More particularly, many Federal Court decisions have said that the residency calculation does not begin until the date that in-fact residence has been established, going back to the Alexei Goudimenko decision and
the Ahmed decision, where the court stated (in both cases):
" . . . a two stage inquiry exists with respect to the residence requirements of paragraph 5(1)(c) of the Act. At the first stage, the threshold determination is made as to whether or not, and when, residence in Canada has been established. If residence has not been established, the matter ends there. If the threshold has been met, the second stage of the inquiry requires a determination of whether or not the particular applicant's residency satisfied the required total days of residence . . . "
This two stage inquiry, with the first stage being the threshold determination as to the date actual residence is established, has been affirmatively cited in numerous Federal Court decisions by many different justices. The difference comes in whether it applies to an applicant who was physically present in Canada for 1095+ days or only to those relying on a qualitative test. Justice Locke and a few others agree with CIC, that this is a threshold question for all applicants.
To a significant extent, this appears to fly in the face of many reports over time.
The reality is that CIC is selective in who it subjects to elevated scrutiny and, in effect, a more strict approach for assessing residency. Many, many applicants fly under the radar, so to say, and never encounter a strict application of technicalities in the calculation of their residency.
In the last six years or more I have seen many reports suggesting that for purposes of calculating physical presence, all that mattered was actual presence in Canada. Days present in Canada counted. Days present prior to becoming a PR, but still within four years, counted. All that mattered was that the applicant had legal status and could document the days present. What that status was in particular did not matter.
That said, there were periodic discussions in multiple forums about whether time in Canada as a visitor prior to landing would get the half-day credit. There never was any definitive answer (which has not stopped some from posting, wrongly, that there is a definitive answer).
And even Justice Locke's ruling in the Jahanara Begum Khan decision is not a definitive answer since the Federal Court's decisions are not binding and other Federal Court justices have said that this threshold question (date actual residence is established) only applies when using a qualitative test to assess residency.
But the Jahanara Begum Khan decision conclusively reflects what CIC's position is: time visiting Canada (even for a PR) prior to establishing residency in Canada does NOT count.
Moreover, CIC's position is inconsistent with how the online Residency Calculator worked.
So long as the time in Canada was within four years of the date of applying, the online calculator gave credit for any time present in Canada after landing. In fact, the online calculator did not allow applicants to put in a date later than the date of landing for the date they came to Canada to live. The calculator essentially forced the applicant to include this time.
In contrast, CIC has long argued that only time after actually establishing residence should count.
My Take-Aways
If this is a shortfall application, the odds of a successful outcome are dismal, perhaps virtually zero. Probably not worth pursuing.
Beyond that it is difficult to forecast. Obviously, if this time reduces the APP calculation to less than 1095, then it is a big issue. Whether or not one could successfully argue that given 1095 days of actual presence, it should count, may depend on the CJ.
I would note, for example, that in the Jahanara Begum Khan case, CIC had many larger concerns about the extent to which the applicant was residing in Canada. This goes back to the observation that in reality CIC is selective in who it subjects to elevated scrutiny and, in effect, a more strict approach for assessing residency. How strict CIC approaches this . . . how vehemently it urges a CJ to deny approval for example, or whether CIC will appeal a CJ's approval as it did in the Jahanara Begum Khan case, probably depends on the overall strength of the case and CIC's impressions.
Personally, depending on what I could afford of course, this is a case I would take to a lawyer.
In any event, there is no doubt that CIC will take the position that those days in Canada prior to landing, as a visitor, do NOT count. But I believe it will still be up to a CJ to decide (although this is not necessarily guaranteed under the new process).
I have some experience with this, because I helped a friend prepare his citizenship application. The only way he qualified was if days were counted before he became a PR, and while he was living here with his Canadian spouse, essentially as a visitor. As I mentioned in a different thread, he is an American living in Windsor, and he simply crossed the border by car numerous times during this period, each time receiving verbal permission to enter Canada as a visitor (presumably for up to 6 months per entry).maxm said:
When I researched this issue, I could not find much information, but I did find this:
The instructions for the residency calculator stated:
"How residence is calculated
Each day of residence in Canada after lawful admission for permanent residence counts as one day. Each day before lawful admission counts as one-half day.
The calculation of residence cannot go beyond the four-year period before the date of application.
Example:
A citizenship applicant entered Canada April 12, 2000; was lawfully admitted to Canada for permanent residence April 12, 2004, and made the application April 12, 2006.
The four year period begins April 12, 2002; no period before that date is applicable to the calculation of residence."
AND
The CANADAVISA FAQ used to read:
"Citizenship and Immigration Canada recognizes time spent legally in Canada prior to becoming a Canadian Permanent Resident towards the calculation of the 1095 days required to qualify for Canadian Citizenship. Within the four years prior to applying for Canadian Citizenship, each day spent in Canada as a non-Immigrant (i.e. as a visitor, international student, temporary worker) is counted as half a day, up to a maximum total credit of one year. Each day spent in Canada as a Permanent Resident is counted as one whole day."
The result for my friend was that his calculation was not questioned at all and he was approved for citizenship and took the oath. His relative ease and speed (6 months) in obtaining citizenship could have been due to any of several factors (or maybe none of them): 1) American, 2) retired, 3) local office located in a city where cross-border travel is commonplace, 4) friendly officer.
Other applicants may not have the same outcome.