Does passport Canada call the guarantor and the references?
- Thread starter FAAMS
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Some of the comments were just nonsense, in other words; doesn't bother me what they're intended to do.
I actually have no strong opinion on the relative validity of this system compared to some other. You've presented at least straightforward reasons you dislike the current one - fair enough. Personally I don't see the requirement as that burdensome (to get citizenship, one must be in Canada three years; for those who really don't know anyone after three years, there's a back-up procedure), but I respect those who think it's antiquated (and I'm not in a position to nor do I intend to argue for the system - no background in this area).
Small warning: I've had to deal with the passport systems of other countries; their relative efficiency and/or perceived humanity can also leave quite a bit to be desired (I'm referring to the rare cases where there's some problem). It may not be magically better.
That said, I'm not invested in the current system, by all means advocate for changing it; but we can do without the silly nonsense about it that's just not true.
This sounds like blaming victims for the wrongs done to them. How is it " flaming anti Canada sentiments", if Canada is the one that violates charter right of naturalized citizens to move freely, and we merely state the facts?
Yup.
People were discussing the topic without looking up the passport Canada website even once. Not a single one of them...
If any one of them had googled "passport Canada no guarantor", they would have read the first page References and guarantors for Canadian travel document which has a very clear sub-title "If you can’t find a guarantor"...
And yes, asking for guarantor for a passport is a pretty common practice (Australia, New Zealand, UK all have this in place). This is nothing specific to Canada.
While I am not thrilled that this system is in place, its okay. Its fine. It is not the end of the world. Have a friend or a colleague be your guarantor and be on your way. People complain about these things like this is somehow a HUGE barrier to apply for passports.
Also, this is only for first-time passport applicants. AFAIK, when you renew your passport, you don't need a guarantor (You will still need 2 references though - these 2 people can by anyone living anywhere in the world. ).
People were discussing the topic without looking up the passport Canada website even once. Not a single one of them...
If any one of them had googled "passport Canada no guarantor", they would have read the first page References and guarantors for Canadian travel document which has a very clear sub-title "If you can’t find a guarantor"...
And yes, asking for guarantor for a passport is a pretty common practice (Australia, New Zealand, UK all have this in place). This is nothing specific to Canada.
While I am not thrilled that this system is in place, its okay. Its fine. It is not the end of the world. Have a friend or a colleague be your guarantor and be on your way. People complain about these things like this is somehow a HUGE barrier to apply for passports.
Also, this is only for first-time passport applicants. AFAIK, when you renew your passport, you don't need a guarantor (You will still need 2 references though - these 2 people can by anyone living anywhere in the world. ).
Guarantor is not the only thing you need to get a passport. You also need two references. is there a page where it says "what to do if you don't have a guarantor and references"?
It doesn't matter how many countries have this as a common practice. The fact is that a citizen in Canada, if such individual doesn't have or can't produce references, can be denied a passport. Such individual for all practical purposes would be locked in Canada, unable to exit it and/or return to it after the exit.
That's violation of Article 13 of the Universal Human Rights charter.
References can be anyone and anywhere in the world. I edited my previous post. Can't a person find 2 people that have known them for at least 2 years living anywhere in the world?
Like I said, having this system in place isn't very exciting but what I'm saying is it is NOT the end of the world. Its not like I want the government mandating that someone has to vouch for me, I'm not thrilled either but it isn't causing any major inconvenience.
If there was an actual case where Passport Canada refused to issue a passport because an applicant wasn't able to find at least 2 people as references, that would have been in the news. I searched and I couldn't find anything related to this online (news). It is extremely uncommon for an applicant in Canada applying for a passport with the intent of going abroad to not know 2 other human beings on this planet who can manage to speak some basic English. This is a (very) edge case, an outlier and IMO, very unlikely to happen.
Until this matter is taken up by a court and the court rules that asking for references and/or guarantor is in violation of Article 13 of the Universal Human Rights Charter, I don't think the argument you made above is viable.
Peace!
Why are you answering my question by asking me a question, whether a person can or can not find references? I can't answer for ALL people who ever apply for Canadian passport. Suppose someone can't, then what? He can't get a passport? Can you answer ?
It's not about excitement. The right to exit and return to one's country is part of Universal Human Rights charter, you should read Article 13, section 2, I quoted it and posted a link to it (it's on UN page). You don't have to go to court to read and comprehend it (it's written in plain English).
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If they can't find a guarantor, they go to Service Canada to get a form, they complete the form, and they go swear an oath before a notary/justice of the peace/commissioner of oaths.
So yes, if they can't find a guarantor, they can get a passport.
"If" suppose someone can't! That's a big "If". Like I said, if this happened, there would be a trace - a news article, a blog post, something.
Given that there isn't one piece of evidence that this has happened before (that is, people weren't able to find references for passport OR people were refused a passport for the aforementioned reason), there is no use of continuing the "Suppose someone can't...." discussion in your post; A moot point.
If this actually happened, then it should be taken to court and the court will render a decision on whether this practice is constitutional or not.
I hope that answered your question.
Whatever you speculate is irrelevant. There is no ifs and buts about it. I am not even discussing absurdity and redundancy of requirement for naturalized citizen (does Canada imply that it is not sure who it granted Canadian citizenship to, so it asks the individual to prove, once again, who they are?). Again, redundancy of request set aside, it simply violates Article 13 of Universal Human Rights charter, which says one has a right to leave and return to their country (which requires possession of a passport). Right is not a privilege, benefit or commodity that someone in control can withhold or condition grant of. Right is something that you are entitled to without conditions. That right is being violated by placing a condition that at least some people may not be able to meet.
Yeah. There is an exception to every rule.
Article 13 says that a person can freely enter their own country or exit any country. However, there are a bunch of other rules that act as an exception to it. For example, if someone has committed a crime, their passport can be confiscated thereby not allowing them to travel and that wouldn't be in contradiction to Article 13, would it? There were a couple of people in Canada who were refused passport on grounds of National security and that wasn't in violation of Article 13.
Similarly, Article 8 of the United Nations Convention on the Reduction of Statelessness states that a country cannot reprieve a person of citizenship if it'll make the said person stateless BUT there is an exception to this rule where the country will NOT be in violation of this article if the citizenship was obtained by misrepresentation or fraud.
That is why I maintain that court is the decider if something is constitutional or not. That is the reason why I have said (at least a couple of times now) that if someone finds Passport Canada asking for references is unconstitutional OR it violates the Universal Human Rights Charter, they should take it to court and the court will decide if it ACTUALLY violates the said charter. It isn't black and white. You can derive a meaning from what's provided there but the constitutionality of it comes via a court decision.
That is not "exception to the rule". It is not a "rule" it's a universal human right. If you have a right, there no exception to it.
As to criminals, they loose certain rights when they are arrested / detained / incarcerated. This is a payment for what they have done wrong, If you are imprisoned you don't have a right to move freely (which is obvious, otherwise no one would stay in prison). If you are under active investigation you may loose a right to move freely. Someone who simply has no references is not a criminal , he hasn't done anything wrong and as a result can not be deprived of his right to move freely. Therefore your analogy is moot and invalid in this instance.
Okay I am tried of going back and forth with you. If you have a problem, courts are at your disposal. If you don't want to do that, follow whatever rules apply. Simple as that.
@armoured and I have provided enough talking points here and it would be an absolute waste of time discussing this non-issue that isn't going to lead us anywhere.
I'm out.
@armoured and I have provided enough talking points here and it would be an absolute waste of time discussing this non-issue that isn't going to lead us anywhere.
I'm out.