Does anyone feel the same way I do?

[Nov 06- 2014]

Finally, my wife and I have completed our response to the RQs we received. It was such a nasty time collecting all the supporting documents from different parties. During that stressful time I have had few thoughts and I would like to share it with you. To be able to complete the forms I thankfully got a lot of advices from this forum and in my opinion this forum is tons of time more helpful than CIC agents who seemed to me very neutral in their response to questions. ‘Useless answers’ I believe is the very accurate description. I don’t want to be offensive here, but my feelings and thoughts and experiences I have gone though so far pushed me to write this.

- Since my move to Canada, I have always considered myself as a lucky person since I got the job in a well reputable company. I have filed all my taxes during the three years. My kids are full time students and I have taken few courses here. All of this didn’t help at all in avoiding the RQ.
- Having said that, I strongly believe that RQ is such a full waste of time. It is waste of time for me, my family, for everyone helped in proving me the letters, records and documents. And of course it is waste of time for CIC as well.
- It is such a waste of money. I had to spend a lot of money to get the documents such as travel records from home country, translations, records from doctors, etc.
- When I moved to Canada, I was advised by many friends to ensure availability of supporting documents of our physical presence. Of course the easiest way (especially for homemaker mums) is to show up at family doctors. I’m one of many new comers who listened to the advices and agreed with my wife to keep visiting family doctors for no reason except obtaining this sort of record when needed. Don’t you think this is causing a burden on the health system and cost tax payers here?
- One of the things which made me laugh. Why does CIC rely on other countries passports stamps and travel records? Do they really need to do that? I believe Canada has one of the best worldwide immigration systems. Why don’t they find a better and more efficient, realistic and cost effective system to track your movement in/from the country?

I just think that all this time and expenses should have been saved and spent on more productive efforts to build this country. Honestly speaking, I felt so bad, simply because I know that every day I claimed of my physical presence was true. I always asked myself a question;

Why doesn’t Canada have a better system at all boarders and records every single entry and exit of every individual? Don’t you think that could be the magic solution for everyone? Doesn’t this save all efforts and make the process fair for everyone?

I really hope one day, they will relook at this more seriously and try to find better solutions and make the life easier for newcomers who are already going through a lot of tough time in settling, finding jobs and locate themselves in this community.

These are just thoughts I want to say loudly and share with you.

 

[boltz]

Finally, my wife and I have completed our response to the RQs we received. It was such a nasty time collecting all the supporting documents from different parties. During that stressful time I have had few thoughts and I would like to share it with you. To be able to complete the forms I thankfully got a lot of advices from this forum and in my opinion this forum is tons of time more helpful than CIC agents who seemed to me very neutral in their response to questions. ‘Useless answers' I believe is the very accurate description. I don't want to be offensive here, but my feelings and thoughts and experiences I have gone though so far pushed me to write this.

- Since my move to Canada, I have always considered myself as a lucky person since I got the job in a well reputable company. I have filed all my taxes during the three years. My kids are full time students and I have taken few courses here. All of this didn't help at all in avoiding the RQ.
- Having said that, I strongly believe that RQ is such a full waste of time. It is waste of time for me, my family, for everyone helped in proving me the letters, records and documents. And of course it is waste of time for CIC as well.
- It is such a waste of money. I had to spend a lot of money to get the documents such as travel records from home country, translations, records from doctors, etc.
- When I moved to Canada, I was advised by many friends to ensure availability of supporting documents of our physical presence. Of course the easiest way (especially for homemaker mums) is to show up at family doctors. I'm one of many new comers who listened to the advices and agreed with my wife to keep visiting family doctors for no reason except obtaining this sort of record when needed. Don't you think this is causing a burden on the health system and cost tax payers here?
- One of the things which made me laugh. Why does CIC rely on other countries passports stamps and travel records? Do they really need to do that? I believe Canada has one of the best worldwide immigration systems. Why don't they find a better and more efficient, realistic and cost effective system to track your movement in/from the country?

I just think that all this time and expenses should have been saved and spent on more productive efforts to build this country. Honestly speaking, I felt so bad, simply because I know that every day I claimed of my physical presence was true. I always asked myself a question;

Why doesn't Canada have a better system at all boarders and records every single entry and exit of every individual? Don't you think that could be the magic solution for everyone? Doesn't this save all efforts and make the process fair for everyone?

I really hope one day, they will relook at this more seriously and try to find better solutions and make the life easier for newcomers who are already going through a lot of tough time in settling, finding jobs and locate themselves in this community.

These are just thoughts I want to say loudly and share with you.

That's right - canada border recs mgmt - is certainly one size fits all. They should do it.

 

[scylla]

- When I moved to Canada, I was advised by many friends to ensure availability of supporting documents of our physical presence. Of course the easiest way (especially for homemaker mums) is to show up at family doctors. I'm one of many new comers who listened to the advices and agreed with my wife to keep visiting family doctors for no reason except obtaining this sort of record when needed. Don't you think this is causing a burden on the health system and cost tax payers here?

The easiest way to prove that you are in Canada is to obtain a credit card as soon as you arrive and use it for all of your daily purchases (even the small ones - like a cup of coffee). My husband received RQ and our biggest piece of supporting evidence were his credit card statements from the last four years.

Adding exit controls at all airports and land boarder crossings would cost Canada hundreds of millions of dollars to set up and then tens of millions to run each year. So this solution would actually end up costing tax payers far more than the currnet set up.

 

[CanV]

The easiest way to prove that you are in Canada is to obtain a credit card as soon as you arrive and use it for all of your daily purchases (even the small ones - like a cup of coffee). My husband received RQ and our biggest piece of supporting evidence were his credit card statements from the last four years.

Adding exit controls at all airports and land boarder crossings would cost Canada hundreds of millions of dollars to set up and then tens of millions to run each year. So this solution would actually end up costing tax payers far more than the currnet set up.

I agree exit control is not the solution due to cost but I am sure they could come up with a cost efficient way to record exit if they want to, they dont.

 

[Nov 06- 2014]

I’m not sure the credit card is the answer if not accompanied by other evidences. Keep in mind that anyone can use the credit card on somebody’s behalf. Other evidences I believe such as health record is far more solid proof. In my case I submitted the statements which also shows every transactions such as rental payment, utilities, etc.

In regards to the cost due to the implementation of boarder system, I ‘m not sure it is the case. My home country is a small one. When I asked for a travel record, with a very simple click, I got a print out of all my entries and exits to the country. If that small country ( with no resources) can make it easily, why Canada can’t do it? I’m sure that so many other countries do that. There must be other reasons.

 

[eileenf]

There have been some well known scams where services would create a false paper trail of residency for PRs living abroad, primarily by using their credit and debit cards daily or weekly. Credit cards are not enough. And neither are border records. RQ depends on more individualizes portraits of lives lived in Canada. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

I agree that it's a pain and often a huge waste of everyone's time though.

 

[capt_ahmed]

I totally agree with you. Any country should have a decent access control on its border; access control should mean in and out and not only in! That's something essential for national security purposes.
I can't believe that adding passport control would need huge cost. There is a reason why all countries now must issue smart passports; simply swipe you passport before boarding the plane then let the technology does the job.
If there was a reliable border control, then the Citizenship application would be completed in one visit to CIC local office where they can access CBSA records and see your travel history as consecutive in/out movements.

Please send your thoughts to your local MP, it may make a difference!

 

[Nov 06- 2014]

There have been some well known scams where services would create a false paper trail of residency for PRs living abroad, primarily by using their credit and debit cards daily or weekly. Credit cards are not enough. And neither are border records. RQ depends on more individualizes portraits of lives lived in Canada. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

I agree that it's a pain and often a huge waste of everyone's time though.

With my full respect to Eileenf point of view, I wonder why would CIC bother about individualized portrait of citizenship applicants. What does the living details of any individual add to them if the security check of the individual is clear and accurate entry and exits give a clear evidence of presence in Canada. I still think that this is a useless process that keeps a lot of individual and organization busy working on supporting documents.

 

[Nov 06- 2014]

I totally agree with you. Any country should have a decent access control on its border; access control should mean in and out and not only in! That's something essential for national security purposes.
I can't believe that adding passport control would need huge cost. There is a reason why all countries now must issue smart passports; simply swipe you passport before boarding the plane then let the technology does the job.
If there was a reliable border control, then the Citizenship application would be completed in one visit to CIC local office where they can access CBSA records and see your travel history as consecutive in/out movements.

Please send your thoughts to your local MP, it may make a difference!

capt_ahmed, what you have just mentioned looks like a dream. Completing the Citizenship application in one visit to local CIC office!!!!! Trust me my friend, if there is a real intention to make the process easier, there will be tons of ‘cost effective and efficient’ ways to do that without compromising the security and public safety aspects.

 

[djoli]

Since when has it become a crime for one to go back home on vacation while you are a PR? Since when has it become a crime for one to go the U.S numerous times while you are a PR? the whole system is just so stupid. Why not get rid of this stupid 1095 days of physical presence and stamps in passports and rely more some inovative technologies to determine whether people live here or not. Why are they suspecting people for not living here? it is very simple: GIVE THEM JOBS. I suspect most people would stay here after becoming citizens if they had decent jobs, the lack opportunity is a major factor in people deciding to leave Canada right after becoming citizens.

 

[boltz]

There have been some well known scams where services would create a false paper trail of residency for PRs living abroad, primarily by using their credit and debit cards daily or weekly. Credit cards are not enough. And neither are border records. RQ depends on more individualizes portraits of lives lived in Canada. There is no one-size-fits-all solution.

I agree that it's a pain and often a huge waste of everyone's time though.

Why would "border records" not be a comprehensive solution (keeping costs out of discussion, I am trying to understand the validity of the solution itself)?

 

[eileenf]

With my full respect to Eileenf point of view, I wonder why would CIC bother about individualized portrait of citizenship applicants. What does the living details of any individual add to them if the security check of the individual is clear and accurate entry and exits give a clear evidence of presence in Canada. I still think that this is a useless process that keeps a lot of individual and organization busy working on supporting documents.

I mention it because CBSA records are notoriously flawed. As are many records. Also, just speaking personally, I don't trust "failsafe" technological solutions because computers fail just as often as humans (power's out at the border, generator's down, software bug, hardware crash, etc.) There is always failure in this world, so it's important that the system acknowledge failure and have a back up. Currently, the back up is the 10 kilos of records us RQ recipients are requested to submit.

The reason for the RQ was that until the recent passage of the new citizenship bill "residency" was not defined. Until a couple years ago, anyone with 900 days or more of physical presence would get a pass. Some people with far less days of physical presence got approved for citizenship because they had close ties to Canada (property, family, good intentions, maple leaf and Timbits tattoos, etc.)

Now that residency has been defined as physical presence, you're right that border records will hold more weight. But given how often border records are incomplete, and one could sneak across the US border by foot or canoe or moto-neige if you really wanted to, there's always going to be a place for more qualitative information (like I submitted my diaper service delivery receipts for the period when I was a on mat leave.) Everyone's life here is different and everyone's proof of their life here will be different.

That said, there is a big part of the RQ that is punitive. The language used. The CIC's deliberate choice not to make an RQ guide. The lack of consistent information. The typos that used to be on the RQ and cover letter (thankfully fixed now after 2 years). The high stakes "you lowly immigrant scammer" vibe. The overwhelming pile of information that they ask for. This is the same sort of information that Senators were unable to furnish when the housing reimbursement scandal happened. No one has all those documents unless they are an archivist or their own private investigator. The RQ definitely suggests that anyone who doesn't have a full set of rent receipts and every other piece of paper known to mankind is a liar and a cheat who doesn't deserve Canada.

And that sucks. It speaks to Canada's inferiority complex, its latent (and sometimes less so) xenophobia and an unfortunate mean-spiritedness.

I spoke with a CIC employee who worked on the creation of the "new" (2011) RQ. She said that they were told that it was for "the worst of the worst". She said she was surprised by how widely it was used, given that they designed it for the very few applications which appeared to be obviously fraudulent. This is the tone that comes through in the RQ.

People are right to feel frustrated, intimidated and insulted. The RQ was designed to intimidate and the insults are inherent.

 

[Nov 06- 2014]

I mention it because CBSA records are notoriously flawed. As are many records. Also, just speaking personally, I don't trust "failsafe" technological solutions because computers fail just as often as humans (power's out at the border, generator's down, software bug, hardware crash, etc.) There is always failure in this world, so it's important that the system acknowledge failure and have a back up. Currently, the back up is the 10 kilos of records us RQ recipients are requested to submit.

The reason for the RQ was that until the recent passage of the new citizenship bill "residency" was not defined. Until a couple years ago, anyone with 900 days or more of physical presence would get a pass. Some people with far less days of physical presence got approved for citizenship because they had close ties to Canada (property, family, good intentions, maple leaf and Timbits tattoos, etc.)

Now that residency has been defined as physical presence, you're right that border records will hold more weight. But given how often border records are incomplete, and one could sneak across the US border by foot or canoe or moto-neige if you really wanted to, there's always going to be a place for more qualitative information (like I submitted my diaper service delivery receipts for the period when I was a on mat leave.) Everyone's life here is different and everyone's proof of their life here will be different.

That said, there is a big part of the RQ that is punitive. The language used. The CIC's deliberate choice not to make an RQ guide. The lack of consistent information. The typos that used to be on the RQ and cover letter (thankfully fixed now after 2 years). The high stakes "you lowly immigrant scammer" vibe. The overwhelming pile of information that they ask for. This is the same sort of information that Senators were unable to furnish when the housing reimbursement scandal happened. No one has all those documents unless they are an archivist or their own private investigator. The RQ definitely suggests that anyone who doesn't have a full set of rent receipts and every other piece of paper known to mankind is a liar and a cheat who doesn't deserve Canada.

And that sucks. It speaks to Canada's inferiority complex, its latent (and sometimes less so) xenophobia and an unfortunate mean-spiritedness.

I spoke with a CIC employee who worked on the creation of the "new" (2011) RQ. She said that they were told that it was for "the worst of the worst". She said she was surprised by how widely it was used, given that they designed it for the very few applications which appeared to be obviously fraudulent. This is the tone that comes through in the RQ.

People are right to feel frustrated, intimidated and insulted. The RQ was designed to intimidate and the insults are inherent.

Eileenf , I agree with the most part, however, keep in mind that if someone has such an intention to cheat or sneak will still do it either ways.

Having received an RQ, it proves to me the failure of the system to detect the fraudulent applications. Name it whatever you want, but I will call it ‘ Failure’. Because I heard a lot about the RQ, I was worried about getting it at the beginning and I expressed that to some friends. They all said ‘no way you get it’ as you have been full time working since I came. Kids at school, courses, etc. I still get an RQ. My question here, Is the RQ designed to capture a case like mine??? Because I know that my case is 100% clear and every single day I lived here is true, I strongly believe that the RQ fails to target the fraudulent cases ( which I’m sure many of them passed without receiving RQs). What do you call this?

Now, from your experience, what is the percentage of the cases that pass the RQ and eventually gets approved? I’m sure the majority will do that sooner or later. That also raise another question mark.

If RQ will still be used, then it has to be smart enough, streamlined and better controlled to only find the fraudulent cases. That would make it fair. Otherwise it is better to find other solutions.

 

[eileenf]

Now, from your experience, what is the percentage of the cases that pass the RQ and eventually gets approved? I'm sure the majority will do that sooner or later. That also raise another question mark.

CIC would be the only source for dependable statistics on this and I have never heard of it being released. It would be hard to calculate because of the variation in processing times.

But, anecdotal, yes, the vast majority of RQ recipients from 2011-early 2013 are eventually approved. During this period, the RQ rate fluctuated between 15-40% of all applicants, meaning that the CIC cast a very wide net. I also believe that they were purposefully trying to slow down citizenship and create a larger backlog in order to justify the "streamlining" of the citizenship process and increased powers for the Minister with the new citizenship Act.

After mid-2013, the RQ triggers were significantly revised and the RQ rates are not nearly so high. That doesn't mean that it's not a blunt instrument though that questions many qualified applicants. But it's important to remember that an RQ is not a final decision. It sucks, yes. But it's not a conclusion by the CIC on your qualifications or your personal value and potential as a citizen. It just means that your case tripped a trigger. We don't know exactly what the triggers are, so it's hard to comment on them with much confidence.

Good luck.

 

[Nov 06- 2014]

CIC would be the only source for dependable statistics on this and I have never heard of it being released. It would be hard to calculate because of the variation in processing times.

But, anecdotal, yes, the vast majority of RQ recipients from 2011-early 2013 are eventually approved. During this period, the RQ rate fluctuated between 15-40% of all applicants, meaning that the CIC cast a very wide net. I also believe that they were purposefully trying to slow down citizenship and create a larger backlog in order to justify the "streamlining" of the citizenship process and increased powers for the Minister with the new citizenship Act.

After mid-2013, the RQ triggers were significantly revised and the RQ rates are not nearly so high. That doesn't mean that it's not a blunt instrument though that questions many qualified applicants. But it's important to remember that an RQ is not a final decision. It sucks, yes. But it's not a conclusion by the CIC on your qualifications or your personal value and potential as a citizen. It just means that your case tripped a trigger. We don't know exactly what the triggers are, so it's hard to comment on them with much confidence.

Good luck.

Thanks Eileenf for this informative response. It seems you have a lot of knowledge about the RQ process. All what I hope is that RQ cases that are straightforward and supported by sufficient evidence of physical presence will be processed fast along with other applications that doesn't get RQ. That will make it a bit fair for those applicants.