Did anyone watch the documentary on Marriage Fraud last night on CBC news?

[Baloo]

I have been thinking about this quite a bit, I have already said I think a temporary visa is a good idea, after some thought, I have to say - maybe.
Marriage fraud exists in at least two main forms 1) both partners planning the fraud and 2) one partner planning the fraud on the other.
Of course some people incorrectly label marriage breakup as marriage fraud, it is not; It happens in everyday life, not just with immigration cases. But it can still have the same sort of financial impact on the sponsor.

Limiting the first type of marriage fraud is all about the Government having enough resources to check properly, a temporary visa will not impact this at all because both parties will lie and produce fraudulent information.
In the second type of case a lot of media attention is focussed on Canadians being used by the foreign applicant to gain PR. Limiting the instances of this second case could use temporary visas, but there are a few things to consider...
Setting the time for a temporary visa at two or three years should let the partners "see" if things will work.
We read reports of foreign applicants who walk away from their spouse at the airport and threaten the sponsor with "you have to support me for three years (it was ten years), you signed the sponsorship form". But what happens if the sponsor is abusive when the applicant arrives in Canada? The threat would be "if you don't do as I tell you, I can get you deported". I know this already happens to some people who do not understand the law in Canada, but changing the rules so that people can be deported if a marriage breaks down will not help this type of case, it will give the abusers a real weapon.

The big problems at the moment are that the government not only issues full PR as soon as the applicant lands, but they also allow multiple appeals if the applicant is found to have committed fraud.
My first thought would be, do not allow appeals, but maybe one appeal would be a better solution, it would be more Canadian
I would also suggest that if someone has been found (in a court) to have committed fraud, the sponsor should no longer be on the hook for payments. This would leave a whole pile of costs for the government (tax payers), that obviously wont be allowed, so why not remove the access to welfare from the applicant when they are found guilty?

Canada already appears to be developing a feeling against visible immigrants. It is not right, but with all the media attention on immigrants what would we expect.

This is a big issue with no easy answers.

 

[lemony_20]

I think CIC should not even consider applications if a relationship is less than 3 years, that will cut back the scammers..... and people that are in REAL marriages (relationship) are willing to do anything for each other, INCLUDING waiting.....look at the statistics of relationships people.....sad but true...look at some of the stories on here just from yesterday....

I'm not sure if this is a good way to approach the matter! I've known my husband for almost 4 years now, but we've only been married since July...I am lucky to be in Canada and can't wait until I'm a landed permenant resident, but I wouldn't want to be automatically denied if I had only known my husband for a year or two...

As someone else said maybe a year would be more conventional maybe. I would most definitely agree to some kind of temporary visa to prove that my marriage is 100% honest. My main concern is being here and living with my husband and also being able to work and seek medical care in emergencies. Other than that, I could wait a year or two for my immigration process to be settled completely. But I think most are right, it just makes more time that scammers will have to devote to becoming a permenant resident in Canada.

 

[Alabaman]

But what happens if the sponsor is abusive when the applicant arrives in Canada? The threat would be "if you don't do as I tell you, I can get you deported". I know this already happens to some people who do not understand the law in Canada, but changing the rules so that people can be deported if a marriage breaks down will not help this type of case, it will give the abusers a real weapon.

If the sponsor is abusive, why do you need to deport? The abused partner will have no reason to stay in Canada again. He or she will be more than willing to leave. Right?

 

[ditta]

Again, I support the idea of a temporary/conditional visa for 1/2 years before applying for PR for new couples. If it allows partners to work and have medical coverage while living with their future sponsors during this trial period, it could be beneficial for both sides and the government too. First Canadians would not see marriage as the only option to get their partners in the country. It would give time for them to live together and see how it works, for the foreigner partner to see how she/he can adjust. People take a huge risk when they date abroad, marry abroad then take their other half here if the other have never been in Canada before. To base a relationship that serious on causal meetings, mini vacations, skype-chats is like a 50/50 chance.
For those who have a long marriage, enough evidence PR could be still automatic. I might be naive but don`t think someone stay 10/over years in a marriage just to be able to immigrate once.

Someone mentioned to use children as a free ticket for this purpose. Honestly, this is the most disgusting thing. I had my son before I sent my application and I was having this tought. What if they think we had a child to make it easier? I would never ever consider to have children for this reason- I had him because we wanted children and because after being told I have almost zero chance to have a baby,it happened and I cannot be more thankful for him. Immigration is max. 2 years, children are a lifetime responsibility.

Everyone who were in the documentary deserves my sympathy, so those who were abused by their Canadian sponsors. Do not critisize them for having younger boyfriends, everyone is looking for love- age, race, nationality are only factors.

 

[aerogurl87]

Again, I support the idea of a temporary/conditional visa for 1/2 years before applying for PR for new couples. If it allows partners to work and have medical coverage while living with their future sponsors during this trial period, it could be beneficial for both sides and the government too. First Canadians would not see marriage as the only option to get their partners in the country. It would give time for them to live together and see how it works, for the foreigner partner to see how she/he can adjust. People take a huge risk when they date abroad, marry abroad then take their other half here if the other have never been in Canada before. To base a relationship that serious on causal meetings, mini vacations, skype-chats is like a 50/50 chance.
For those who have a long marriage, enough evidence PR could be still automatic. I might be naive but don`t think someone stay 10/over years in a marriage just to be able to immigrate once.

Someone mentioned to use children as a free ticket for this purpose. Honestly, this is the most disgusting thing. I had my son before I sent my application and I was having this tought. What if they think we had a child to make it easier? I would never ever consider to have children for this reason- I had him because we wanted children and because after being told I have almost zero chance to have a baby,it happened and I cannot be more thankful for him. Immigration is max. 2 years, children are a lifetime responsibility.

Everyone who were in the documentary deserves my sympathy, so those who were abused by their Canadian sponsors. Do not critisize them for having younger boyfriends, everyone is looking for love- age, race, nationality are only factors.

Ditta that sounds like a good system as well. As for the baby thing, that's different than what some people do (and it's very prevalent here in the US). They get pregnant and plan to have a child in another country to gain entry into that country, and sometimes the pregnancy is done for this reason and this reason alone. Yes it is sickening, but some people will resort to really low measures in the hope they can make a better life for themselves.

 

[ditta]

I do believe those people will never succeed and have such a great life in the country they want to be so desperately. Look at the guy as an example in the documentary- they want to life on welfare or from the pocket of their spouses...

 

[BlueDragon17846]

I know there's lots of talk about conditional visas and "trial periods" and whatnot. I see what everyone is getting at, but I'm not sure its the best solution. I mean, let's face it, the amount of time you spend married or even living together doesn't mean anything. I've heard of plenty of people who've broken up after 1 year, 5 years. I've known people who've lived together for 6 years, got married, been married for 11 years, and then divorced. I've also known people who have been married for 30 years or more and got divorced.

Someone on here has even made the point that fraudsters are patient. They will wait 2, 3, perhaps even 4 years, if it means getting a free ticket to Canada. So then, what does the conditional visa offer then, other than a longer, more drawn out anxiety-ridden process for the rest of us?

I think we need to remember that this documentary, like all media, has bias. The show definitely focused on marriage fraudsters, not on genuine marriages, and in doing so, lead one to believe that the percentage of marriage fraud cases is actually higher than it really is. That being said, while I certainly feel for the people involved in these cases, do their actual numbers (whatever they may truly be), really call for such a drastic change in the system? I mean, we're talking massive time, effort and taxpayer dollars here. Is it really worth it?

I think that what is needed is more education (for the sponsors in particular, but also the applicant) in terms of knowing exactly what sponsors are up against when they sign these forms. The sponsor should know that, when he/she signs that form, they need to provide for the applicant for 3 years no matter what. That means that if you are a sponsor and you sign that form, you are responsible--even if your husband you thought was all legit suddenly reveals he has a polygamy of wives and a tribe of children back home. I'm sorry. The country is not responsible because you failed to do your homework.

As a sponsor, you should be educated to the point where you look at the applicant, and the thought of marriage fraud (outside of these conversations) never even crosses your mind. I mean, of course we're all human and anything could be plausible, and we can never really know 100% if someone is scamming us. But if you are looking at that person and wondering if it might be possible....hmmm Is that really a smart risk to take? If you think it is, and down the road, if they turned out to be a scammer, don't go crying to the government, because, after all, it even crossed your mind. You need to fess up to your poor decision and deal with the consequences.

 

[Alabaman]

I know there's lots of talk about conditional visas and "trial periods" and whatnot. I see what everyone is getting at, but I'm not sure its the best solution. I mean, let's face it, the amount of time you spend married or even living together doesn't mean anything. I've heard of plenty of people who've broken up after 1 year, 5 years. I've known people who've lived together for 6 years, got married, been married for 11 years, and then divorced. I've also known people who have been married for 30 years or more and got divorced.

Someone on here has even made the point that fraudsters are patient. They will wait 2, 3, perhaps even 4 years, if it means getting a free ticket to Canada. So then, what does the conditional visa offer then, other than a longer, more drawn out anxiety-ridden process for the rest of us?

I think we need to remember that this documentary, like all media, has bias. The show definitely focused on marriage fraudsters, not on genuine marriages, and in doing so, lead one to believe that the percentage of marriage fraud cases is actually higher than it really is. That being said, while I certainly feel for the people involved in these cases, do their actual numbers (whatever they may truly be), really call for such a drastic change in the system? I mean, we're talking massive time, effort and taxpayer dollars here. Is it really worth it?

I think that what is needed is more education (for the sponsors in particular, but also the applicant) in terms of knowing exactly what sponsors are up against when they sign these forms. The sponsor should know that, when he/she signs that form, they need to provide for the applicant for 3 years no matter what. That means that if you are a sponsor and you sign that form, you are responsible--even if your husband you thought was all legit suddenly reveals he has a polygamy of wives and a tribe of children back home. I'm sorry. The country is not responsible because you failed to do your homework.

As a sponsor, you should be educated to the point where you look at the applicant, and the thought of marriage fraud (outside of these conversations) never even crosses your mind. I mean, of course we're all human and anything could be plausible, and we can never really know 100% if someone is scamming us. But if you are looking at that person and wondering if it might be possible....hmmm Is that really a smart risk to take? If you think it is, and down the road, if they turned out to be a scammer, don't go crying to the government, because, after all, it even crossed your mind. You need to fess up to your poor decision and deal with the consequences.

Like I said in my earlier post... the govt has a blame in this. They will not allow fiancées visit Canada. They will say they will not return to their home country. That is one thing that needs to be changed. In the documentary, a lady visited Marrakesh 8 times within 2 years I think. I am sure the guy was never allowed to visit Canada. Maybe the woman would have been able to see signs that the relationship was fake if the guy was allowed to visit Canada.

 

[aerogurl87]

Bluedragon makes some valid points also. Sometimes it's not the government's fault with it's policies, sometimes it's the sponsor or applicant's fault for not doing their homework. For example in the video that one lady who married the other Moroccan man (the one who was thinking of converting to Islam), her husband wasn't as informed about her life as one probably should be about their spouse. He couldn't remember her father's name and he said he doesn't know much about her family, her job, or her neighbourhood. I think those are things someone really should know about someone before hopping into marriage or even sponsoring someone, although as many have mentioned that's hard to do when some people can't visit their boyfriend or girlfriend in Canada without getting married.

But still people need to do their homework and make sure to the best of their ability that the person they are marrying and sponsoring is legit or in the applicant's case that their sponsor is legit.

 

[Baloo]

Like I said in my earlier post... the govt has a blame in this. They will not allow fiancées visit Canada. They will say they will not return to their home country. That is one thing that needs to be changed. In the documentary, a lady visited Marrakesh 8 times within 2 years I think. I am sure the guy was never allowed to visit Canada. Maybe the woman would have been able to see signs that the relationship was fake if the guy was allowed to visit Canada.

But maybe as CIC suspect, fiancées will overstay - where will that leave things?

 

[shawngt2]

All I can say about this is those two couples with men that were almost 20 years younger than them....WOW... And when they talked about the other leaving them once in Canada, they didn't seem 100% certain The relationships didn't seem so genuine too me, but I could be wrong. It's one thing for two people to be very similar to each other, age, beliefs, things that make it more believable... But they wouldn't even look like a couple walking down the street in say Toronto. I'm sorry, maybe that's cold, but it's true. Those guys can get girls their own age whom are much more attractive.

Concerning my wife whom I met in Russia. I know 100% it's genuine and there is not ONE concern about her leaving me. Anyone who has had experience in life and knows the REAL feeling of love, just knows 100%. Love doesn't blind us all "even though they say that". For instance, there are people in this world who get suckered into those pyramid schemes, some people just know right away. It's natural that some people are more susceptible than others, but they both seemed doubtful too me.... It is possible that they will live the rest of their lives together happy once they are together in Canada, but to me they don't seem like a 'couple' at all..

That's just my opinionated 2c.

 

[ditta]

Thing is I would not judge anyone whether their relationship is genuine or not based on what I`ve seen in 10 min. on a footage...It might seem odd to many people to choose a younger husband based on dating a couple of times but that`s ok. We are different...What is dangerous when someone is entering into a marriage without the full knowledge of their partner`s life. I can`t imagine to say yes, I marry you, you are from the other side of the world, I`ve never been there, I`ve never met your family, friends, I don`t know where you live, what are you doing for living, how does one of your day look like, I don`t really know what am I going to do there, but let`s do it.

You stated you felt real love, how do you know these women didn`t? Every relationship has it`s risk- that`s why it would be great if Canada would let the fiancees in to live with their partners- like a test run to see how they can lead life together. May I ask you whether you had lived with your wife before you got married? Or do you sponsor her inland while she lives with you?

 

[shawngt2]

Thing is I would not judge anyone whether their relationship is genuine or not based on what I`ve seen in 10 min. on a footage...It might seem odd to many people to choose a younger husband based on dating a couple of times but that`s ok. We are different...What is dangerous when someone is entering into a marriage without the full knowledge of their partner`s life. I can`t imagine to say yes, I marry you, you are from the other side of the world, I`ve never been there, I`ve never met your family, friends, I don`t know where you live, what are you doing for living, how does one of your day look like, I don`t really know what am I going to do there, but let`s do it.

You stated you felt real love, how do you know these women didn`t? Every relationship has it`s risk- that`s why it would be great if Canada would let the fiancees in to live with their partners- like a test run to see how they can lead life together. May I ask you whether you had lived with your wife before you got married? Or do you sponsor her inland while she lives with you?

Yes, we had lived together for 6 months in Russia while I was there 1.5 years for work. She lives in a resort city now with her family and has a very nice life there, career, educated, lived abroad in 3 other countries during work/study programs (US, AUS and NZ). No reasons to want to leave her life and live in Canada for a better life. We thought about living in Russia also, but I don't speak fluently in the language and we concluded it was much easier for us to start our life in Canada. I continue to learn Russian and one day I would be excited at the opportunity to live in another country and we are both open to this in our future.

I think there are obviously countries like Africa, India, etc. for instance where more marriage fraud could occur. It is unlikely that someone from the US, London, Austraila would use someone to gain access into Canada....

 

[bobshynoswife]

All I can say about this is those two couples with men that were almost 20 years younger than them....WOW... And when they talked about the other leaving them once in Canada, they didn't seem 100% certain The relationships didn't seem so genuine too me, but I could be wrong. It's one thing for two people to be very similar to each other, age, beliefs, things that make it more believable... But they wouldn't even look like a couple walking down the street in say Toronto. I'm sorry, maybe that's cold, but it's true. Those guys can get girls their own age whom are much more attractive.

Concerning my wife whom I met in Russia. I know 100% it's genuine and there is not ONE concern about her leaving me. Anyone who has had experience in life and knows the REAL feeling of love, just knows 100%. Love doesn't blind us all "even though they say that". For instance, there are people in this world who get suckered into those pyramid schemes, some people just know right away. It's natural that some people are more susceptible than others, but they both seemed doubtful too me.... It is possible that they will live the rest of their lives together happy once they are together in Canada, but to me they don't seem like a 'couple' at all..

That's just my opinionated 2c.

I know where you're coming from, but it's hard to read that. We have a very prominent forum member here who was on that documentary and married the younger Moroccan man (although I'm sure she isn't 20 years older, maybe 10?) and they have a legitimate relationship. What I found interesting was when the women talked about how it might not work out, it might be a scam...I didn't know if that was truly them talking or they were prompted by producers.

My husband and I dated long distance for 2 years, me in Alberta, him in London. (Nigerian citizen in UK on a temporary visa, who didn't like UK, so very well might have been someone wanting to scam his way to Canada) I would say that I was convinced he was absolutely genuine after about 2 months. The man had no life! He would call/text/im me in every waking minute. He would call when he woke up in the morning at 5am (10pm my time) and talk to me for over an hour on his way to work. After a few months, he didn't want to hang up when he got to work, so I would hear the men in the yard jeering him and whistling when he walked it, knowing he was on the phone with his girlfriend. He would talk until the very last minute. He introduced me to his family, had his nieces and nephews call me "Aunty Laura" - his sister told me she had never met on of his girlfriend before. He paid for half my flights to see him, and paid for hotels when we went on trips, even though he could barely afford it. He would ALWAYS ask me about my children, and 'knew' them before he'd ever met them. He knew more about me than I ever knew about him because he listened and understood me so well.

My point is, I knew...without even a tiny bit of doubt that he wasn't scamming me, and that we would live together happily for the rest of our lives. It's only been a bit over 2 months since he arrived, but so far everything is perfect and i couldn't be happier.

 

[Love_Young]

I am not that educated on what it takes for other people to stay in other countries but if people wanted to live together, even for a short period, couldn't the Canadian spouse/partner stay a while in the other persons country? I know it isn't easy but just a suggestion. Don't blame Canada for something you have control over in your relationship. Just because they may not be able to visit Canada, doesn't mean you can't visit them in their country. I know it isn't exactly the same and only temporary but if it helps why not give it a try. And I am not directing this to any group of people in particular but just a suggestion to those who are saying they want a conditional visa to "try" out the relationship. Immigration isn't intended for people to "try" out their relationship. If you are wanting to live together before marriage for a few years then do it. Immigration isn't stopping you from doing that. Even if it is difficult or takes time, you will find a way to do it and make it work for the both of you.

Also, I do not feel sorry for the sponsors. I understand they are hurt but they can not blame this country for their own faults. Now in this documentary I understand they are trying to get immigration to enforce their current laws more appropriately and I do agree that once they are found out of misrepresentation they should have to go home. However, I don't think it is right for some sponsors to complain about their responsibilities. They legally signed a document agreeing to be responsible for them even after separation. I think that should still hold true. Sponsors do need to be more educated about things then if this is what it is coming down to because some obviously don't know their obligations. Take it as a lesson and learn to read the fine print before signing anything. I was taught this growing up, wasn't everyone else? I just think immigration is focusing a bit too much on the low percentage of marriage fraud out there and doing less for the genuine marriages out there. Can't they do more to serve those of us doing the right thing better instead of continually torturing us? I mean we already have limited knowledge of what stage our application is at and maybe if we knew that then we wouldn't be calling so much to the call centre to find out.

I mean I notice that US applicants are notified from day one everytime their application is touched, looked at, etc. Can't we do the same? In my opinion that would save us a lot of stress and worry and also in turn saving the call centre line for more urgent requests. I mean if they are wanting to stem from other immigration processes, couldn't they do it more to help us rather than hurt us. I mean what good is increasing the wait time going to do. They will probably lose more and more workers because the wait is already too long as it is and only result in longer waits. Why waste the funds on a whole new immigration process instead of using the funds we do have to improve the immigration system we already have? Maybe I am not thinking in their terms correctly but that would just seem the better option for Canada, the IO's, and the applicants. However, this is all just my 2 cents. What all do I know? I am just an applicant waiting to be able to rightfully live a life with my husband... :