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Denied PGWP extension due to conditional discharge

forevermore76

Hero Member
May 19, 2024
596
177
I had asked my immigration consultant to help me with the criminal record check as it is a long process since I am not in Canada now and they advised me to wait for the GCMS notes first and to confirm the reason first. Also, I'm a bit confused on why I should create an Express Entry profile? Anyways the submission for the PGWP extension is via paper and not online.
That's exactly the reason you should apply now for criminal record check, it could take 2-3 months or more who knows.

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/where-do-get-a-criminal-record-check

Your application has to be very thorough and all information be readily available for a favourable decision.

The last cut-off lowest score was 410 for invitation. Based on profile information you have posted you should have 400+ points on CRS. It won't hurt to apply and be in the pool if you actually do meet the requirements.

I hope it's not the same consultant who applied for your PGWP extension online. It was never supposed to be applied online.
 

Samvar

Member
May 21, 2024
18
0
That's exactly the reason you should apply now for criminal record check, it could take 2-3 months or more who knows.

https://www.rcmp-grc.gc.ca/en/where-do-get-a-criminal-record-check

Your application has to be very thorough and all information be readily available for a favourable decision.

The last cut-off lowest score was 410 for invitation. Based on profile information you have posted you should have 400+ points on CRS. It won't hurt to apply and be in the pool if you actually do meet the requirements.

I hope it's not the same consultant who applied for your PGWP extension online. It was never supposed to be applied online.
I am unable to fill the PGWP extension form being outside Canada as it does not accept my country of residence. I had downloaded the form IMM5710 (https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/study-canada/work/after-graduation/apply/alternate-format.html) and in the section of current residence, the 'country' part is pre-filled as Canada and cannot be changed. Canada is pre-filled in all the places in the form where current country of residence is asked for. I guess they do not expect us to leave Canada and then apply for PGWP extension. Can you help me with this? What is the best work around for this?

P.S. I am not sure this information will help but I have a TRV until 2032. It expires on October 2032. Can I travel to Canada without a work visa and only TRV?
 
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forevermore76

Hero Member
May 19, 2024
596
177
I am unable to fill the PGWP extension form being outside Canada as it does not accept my country of residence. I had downloaded the form IMM5710 (https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/study-canada/work/after-graduation/apply/alternate-format.html) and in the section of current residence, the 'country' part is pre-filled as Canada and cannot be changed. Canada is pre-filled in all the places in the form where current country of residence is asked for. I guess they do not expect us to leave Canada and then apply for PGWP extension. Can you help me with this? What is the best work around for this?

P.S. I am not sure this information will help but I have a TRV until 2032. It expires on October 2032. Can I travel to Canada without a work visa and only TRV?
You need IMM1295. Choose open work permit and put extension of PGWP.

You shouldn't have any issue boarding a flight but CBSA is probably gonna pull you for questioning. You need to prepare for the interview and have solid reason for visiting Canada as you are not really a tourist. Hasn't your PGWP expired already, the initial one?
 

Samvar

Member
May 21, 2024
18
0
You need IMM1295. Choose open work permit and put extension of PGWP.

You shouldn't have any issue boarding a flight but CBSA is probably gonna pull you for questioning. You need to prepare for the interview and have solid reason for visiting Canada as you are not really a tourist. Hasn't your PGWP expired already, the initial one?

My PGWP extension expired on July 2023. My PGWP renewal application got rejected on November 2023. I just checked out the form IMM1295 and I do not see an area to mention, 'extension of PGWP' but I guess I'll just put it under the employer details. Once I complete this form, do you know where should I mail it to, physically? like the address?
 

forevermore76

Hero Member
May 19, 2024
596
177
My PGWP extension expired on July 2023. My PGWP renewal application got rejected on November 2023. I just checked out the form IMM1295 and I do not see an area to mention, 'extension of PGWP' but I guess I'll just put it under the employer details. Once I complete this form, do you know where should I mail it to, physically? like the address?
Applying for a post-graduation work permit from outside Canada
If you graduated from a Canadian post-secondary institution and are applying for a post-graduation work permit from outside Canada, you must indicate this on your Application form for a work permit made from outside Canada (IMM 1295) (PDF, 581 KB):
In the section “Details of intended work in Canada”:
  • Question 1: Choose “Open Work Permit”
  • Question 2a (Name of employer): Write “Post Graduate Work Permit”

What country are you in? I'll not recommend submitting application before you get your GCMS notes.
 

Samvar

Member
May 21, 2024
18
0
Applying for a post-graduation work permit from outside Canada
If you graduated from a Canadian post-secondary institution and are applying for a post-graduation work permit from outside Canada, you must indicate this on your Application form for a work permit made from outside Canada (IMM 1295) (PDF, 581 KB):
In the section “Details of intended work in Canada”:
  • Question 1: Choose “Open Work Permit”
  • Question 2a (Name of employer): Write “Post Graduate Work Permit”

What country are you in? I'll not recommend submitting application before you get your GCMS notes.
No. I will not be applying for it yet. Currently my plan of actions are:

1. Wait for GCMS notes to identify the reasons for rejection.
2. Apply for Criminal record check. It's a big process but I was informed that I will get the record in 2-3 weeks once applied.
3. Once I have evaluated everything, go through the documents check list, and get the necessary documents and mail it to IRCC

To answer your question, currently I am in India. Another concern I have is, how will IRCC let me know the verdict of my application since I am applying by paper and mailing it to them? Will I get the verdict by mail at the residential address mentioned in the form?
 

forevermore76

Hero Member
May 19, 2024
596
177
No. I will not be applying for it yet. Currently my plan of actions are:

1. Wait for GCMS notes to identify the reasons for rejection.
2. Apply for Criminal record check. It's a big process but I was informed that I will get the record in 2-3 weeks once applied.
3. Once I have evaluated everything, go through the documents check list, and get the necessary documents and mail it to IRCC

To answer your question, currently I am in India. Another concern I have is, how will IRCC let me know the verdict of my application since I am applying by paper and mailing it to them? Will I get the verdict by mail at the residential address mentioned in the form?
So from what it appears, you will have to apply through VAC in India. I'm not sure if they'll even understand what you are trying to achieve though...

What type of TRV do you have? I'm guessing it's a V-1 since you have such long validity? I'm thinking maybe, maybe you can apply at POE. Need to weigh the pros and cons but it might give you a better shot at explaining everything. You will need to prepare everything for this though and think through every scenario. What's your finances like? It can be expensive as you will buy tickets and the worst case scenario is denied entry.

I can't successfully conclude yet but this is what it could look like.

Boarding to Landing.

- You are allowed boarding based on V-1. I can't remember if they ask for your purpose of travel so other members can comment please.
- You land at a POE in Canada.
- Present yourself to BSO at PIL and announce your intent.
- The BSO at primary refers you to a BSO at immigration secondary.
- You have your application ready along with every additional piece of document from criminal record check to foreign pccs and previous refusals and whatnot(this checklist would have to be established in the full scope). Consider this a pre-req to boarding.

At Immigration Secondary.

Scope, responsibility, etc.
- R200 clearly establishes that BSO has the authority to examine and issue Work Permit at POE.

Responsibilities of BSO at Immigration Secondary as laid out by IRCC in ENF4.

 examining persons seeking entry to Canada to determine admissibility;
 facilitating the entry of Canadians, PRs and persons registered under the Indian Act;
 confirming identity and biometrics verification;
 collecting biometrics when FNs makes a claim, application or request;
 authorizing FNs to enter Canada as temporary or PRs and issuing documents where
appropriate;
 receiving refugee claims and determining eligibility to make such claims;
 reporting persons who are inadmissible;
 reviewing inadmissibility reports;
 issuing removal orders, where appropriate, to inadmissible persons;
 referring cases to the Immigration Division, where appropriate, for an admissibility
hearing;
 authorizing inadmissible persons to enter Canada on a TRP;
 denying entry to inadmissible persons, arranging for their removal and confirming
their departure;
 allowing persons who have indicated that they want to withdraw their application to
enter Canada to do so and leave Canada; and
 arresting and/or detaining persons if applicable grounds exist.

This pretty much says the BSO has access to everything they need to make a decision but doesn't mean they have to make a decision. They have options like asking you to return next day, etc if the examination becomes exhaustive.


What could happen?
- A lengthy examination.
- BSO issues a PGWP extension(Best Outcome).
- BSO issues a removal order based on criminal inadmissibility (Worst outcome). Provides opportunity for appeal?
- BSO issues a TRP. Allows you to enter Canada and make your application.
- BSO decides to detain/arrest(very unlikely but could happen).

If detained/arrested, you get the right to counsel. Deghnani v Canada established that you can't have counsel during examination and unless detained. However, if you are accompanied by an attorney at POE, they can sit with you through the examination but the BSO reserves the right to ask them to leave.


This is just a preliminary evaluation of things and you would obviously need a more detailed plan. The whole outcome will depend on how BSO looks at 36(1) and chooses to apply it or not. But at POE, you have the opportunity to explain that it does not apply in your case and make you criminally inadmissible.

You also need to think about the financial commitment required and the mental toll this will have on you.

What's the nature of offence? Probation order? You can DM me with that if you want me to take a look but I am certain a criminal case resulting in discharge does not create a criminal record for the offense as there is no conviction. IRPA 36 is entirely based on "conviction" and there's no other mention of criminal inadmissibility for conditional discharge specifically anywhere in the IRPA.
 
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Samvar

Member
May 21, 2024
18
0
So from what it appears, you will have to apply through VAC in India. I'm not sure if they'll even understand what you are trying to achieve though...

What type of TRV do you have? I'm guessing it's a V-1 since you have such long validity? I'm thinking maybe, maybe you can apply at POE. Need to weigh the pros and cons but it might give you a better shot at explaining everything. You will need to prepare everything for this though and think through every scenario. What's your finances like? It can be expensive as you will buy tickets and the worst case scenario is denied entry.

I can't successfully conclude yet but this is what it could look like.

Boarding to Landing.

- You are allowed boarding based on V-1. I can't remember if they ask for your purpose of travel so other members can comment please.
- You land at a POE in Canada.
- Present yourself to BSO at PIL and announce your intent.
- The BSO at primary refers you to a BSO at immigration secondary.
- You have your application ready along with every additional piece of document from criminal record check to foreign pccs and previous refusals and whatnot(this checklist would have to be established in the full scope). Consider this a pre-req to boarding.

At Immigration Secondary.

Scope, responsibility, etc.
- R200 clearly establishes that BSO has the authority to examine and issue Work Permit at POE.

Responsibilities of BSO at Immigration Secondary as laid out by IRCC in ENF4.

 examining persons seeking entry to Canada to determine admissibility;
 facilitating the entry of Canadians, PRs and persons registered under the Indian Act;
 confirming identity and biometrics verification;
 collecting biometrics when FNs makes a claim, application or request;
 authorizing FNs to enter Canada as temporary or PRs and issuing documents where
appropriate;
 receiving refugee claims and determining eligibility to make such claims;
 reporting persons who are inadmissible;
 reviewing inadmissibility reports;
 issuing removal orders, where appropriate, to inadmissible persons;
 referring cases to the Immigration Division, where appropriate, for an admissibility
hearing;
 authorizing inadmissible persons to enter Canada on a TRP;
 denying entry to inadmissible persons, arranging for their removal and confirming
their departure;
 allowing persons who have indicated that they want to withdraw their application to
enter Canada to do so and leave Canada; and
 arresting and/or detaining persons if applicable grounds exist.

This pretty much says the BSO has access to everything they need to make a decision but doesn't mean they have to make a decision. They have options like asking you to return next day, etc if the examination becomes exhaustive.


What could happen?
- A lengthy examination.
- BSO issues a PGWP extension(Best Outcome).
- BSO issues a removal order based on criminal inadmissibility (Worst outcome). Provides opportunity for appeal?
- BSO issues a TRP. Allows you to enter Canada and make your application.
- BSO decides to detain/arrest(very unlikely but could happen).

If detained/arrested, you get the right to counsel. Deghnani v Canada established that you can't have counsel during examination and unless detained. However, if you are accompanied by an attorney at POE, they can sit with you through the examination but the BSO reserves the right to ask them to leave.


This is just a preliminary evaluation of things and you would obviously need a more detailed plan. The whole outcome will depend on how BSO looks at 36(1) and chooses to apply it or not. But at POE, you have the opportunity to explain that it does not apply in your case and make you criminally inadmissible.

You also need to think about the financial commitment required and the mental toll this will have on you.

What's the nature of offence? Probation order? You can DM me with that if you want me to take a look but I am certain a criminal case resulting in discharge does not create a criminal record for the offense as there is no conviction. IRPA 36 is entirely based on "conviction" and there's no other mention of criminal inadmissibility for conditional discharge specifically anywhere in the IRPA.
Yes. I have a V-1 TRV. Honestly, what you mentioned above sounds scary and even if I have the mental resilience for this task, I'm not sure if I am financially stable enough for this. If there was higher chances of a BSO officer giving me a positive outcome, I wouldn't mind this expedition. Hence I highly doubt this. even though I am highly intrigued by the fact that I get a chance to explain everything to the BSO up straight. That's a major pro. But I was wondering if we still waited for for the GCMS notes before jumping into a decision. What if there is something more in the GCMS notes
 

forevermore76

Hero Member
May 19, 2024
596
177
Yes. I have a V-1 TRV. Honestly, what you mentioned above sounds scary and even if I have the mental resilience for this task, I'm not sure if I am financially stable enough for this. If there was higher chances of a BSO officer giving me a positive outcome, I wouldn't mind this expedition. Hence I highly doubt this. even though I am highly intrigued by the fact that I get a chance to explain everything to the BSO up straight. That's a major pro. But I was wondering if we still waited for for the GCMS notes before jumping into a decision. What if there is something more in the GCMS notes
100%. This is like the nuclear option but I also think it has the possibility of getting you a quick and favourable decision. Obviously you'll have to prepare for the interview and know the full ins and outs of your case along with objections. Almost like being your own attorney lol. You'll need to run scenarios and prepare arguments.

You are correct, wait for GCMS, get your criminal record check and think about all the options. It'll be hilarious if your GCMS notes identify the refusal had nothing to do with criminal inadmissibility but I doubt it since the reason 3 in your refusal letter directly points to it.

I'll look in to VAC and how they work and what could be the best course of action for submitting application. Hate those guys though, I'm probably gonna have to deal with them myself soon to surrender my Indian passport. Lol
 

Samvar

Member
May 21, 2024
18
0
100%. This is like the nuclear option but I also think it has the possibility of getting you a quick and favourable decision. Obviously you'll have to prepare for the interview and know the full ins and outs of your case along with objections. Almost like being your own attorney lol. You'll need to run scenarios and prepare arguments.

You are correct, wait for GCMS, get your criminal record check and think about all the options. It'll be hilarious if your GCMS notes identify the refusal had nothing to do with criminal inadmissibility but I doubt it since the reason 3 in your refusal letter directly points to it.

I'll look in to VAC and how they work and what could be the best course of action for submitting application. Hate those guys though, I'm probably gonna have to deal with them myself soon to surrender my Indian passport. Lol
Hey I was just talking to a few lawyers and they had told me that PGWP extension can be done online. This mainly changed after Covid. Also when you look into videos like these (
) on youtube, they say that they applied it online. Please can you look into this?
 

forevermore76

Hero Member
May 19, 2024
596
177
Hey I was just talking to a few lawyers and they had told me that PGWP extension can be done online. This mainly changed after Covid. Also when you look into videos like these (
) on youtube, they say that they applied it online. Please can you look into this?
Not sure. IRCC instruction guide still says apply on paper and normally there's a reason behind that. I've seen some pilot programs where they ask for paper applications because it lands in a separate queue but then again inland and overseas applications probably make a difference too.

My guess is you are going to have to apply online anyways because VAC in India will very likely not accept paper application. It's a very unique situation for sure.

You should look in to creating an EE profile too. Check what score you get on CRS first though.
 

Samvar

Member
May 21, 2024
18
0
Not sure. IRCC instruction guide still says apply on paper and normally there's a reason behind that. I've seen some pilot programs where they ask for paper applications because it lands in a separate queue but then again inland and overseas applications probably make a difference too.

My guess is you are going to have to apply online anyways because VAC in India will very likely not accept paper application. It's a very unique situation for sure.

You should look in to creating an EE profile too. Check what score you get on CRS first though.
My CRS score right now is 503. I have not written by IELTS general but giving my IELTS academic score and previous work experiences, I am getting 503 as of now.

Also, I just talked to an immigration lawyer and they had told me that they strongly feel my extension request was rejected because of the conditional discharge. Because I haven't got the discharge yet and I am still on probation until October. Its only after the probation period, one can truly say I am out of conviction. Like... If i go now and break the conditions imposed, I can still be convicted. This was his take on conditional discharge. I am also confused on the remaining time I would get for my extension. My PGWP expired last year July and I am eligible of 18 months of PGWP extension. If they are considering the remaining time from the time of the expiry of my previous PGWP, I will only get up to December 2024 which wont be of any use as probably I will only get that decision around October this year. In my cover letter, can I request the IRCC agent to consider the time from the application of extension and not the expiry of my previous PGWP? Is that worth a shot?

What's your take on all these?
 

forevermore76

Hero Member
May 19, 2024
596
177
My CRS score right now is 503. I have not written by IELTS general but giving my IELTS academic score and previous work experiences, I am getting 503 as of now.

Also, I just talked to an immigration lawyer and they had told me that they strongly feel my extension request was rejected because of the conditional discharge. Because I haven't got the discharge yet and I am still on probation until October. Its only after the probation period, one can truly say I am out of conviction. Like... If i go now and break the conditions imposed, I can still be convicted. This was his take on conditional discharge. I am also confused on the remaining time I would get for my extension. My PGWP expired last year July and I am eligible of 18 months of PGWP extension. If they are considering the remaining time from the time of the expiry of my previous PGWP, I will only get up to December 2024 which wont be of any use as probably I will only get that decision around October this year. In my cover letter, can I request the IRCC agent to consider the time from the application of extension and not the expiry of my previous PGWP? Is that worth a shot?

What's your take on all these?
I would create EE profile and stay in the pool. For rest, wait till you get the case notes and go from there.